Which .45 ACP load is better for personal protection?

[duns]

lighter & faster will penetrate deeper into the body thus increasing the chance of cutting an artery

I think that is a myth. There are more variables than bullet mass and velocity. My own analysis suggests that manufacturers of all the major calibers have designed their rounds (including the bullet design) to produce penetration in the broadly acceptable range according to the FBI criteria. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So penetration is about the same for slow and heavy as for fast and light, on average.

 

[gym]

I always use 230 grain hydrashocks. Last couple years they got harder to find so I moved to the sxt's but I always kept two clips of hydrashocks for carry.

 

[stinger 327]

I always use 230 grain hydrashocks. Last couple years they got harder to find so I moved to the sxt's but I always kept two clips of hydrashocks for carry.

At one time this was the most popular round for the .45 ACP tested and perhaps used by FBI but many years ago.

Weren't the SXT's a take-off/replacement for the Winchester Black Talons? I have also seen on that box "Law Enforcement Use only" for the Black Talons.

 

[stinger 327]

RA45T Winchester Ranger 45 acp T-Series 230 gr

I love Win-Ranger ammo. I'm dying to try it out in a few more of my guns, and if reliable, I'd love to carry it daily.

I have seen these for sale for $45.00 a box they are black in color.
Then I have also seen exactlly what you have shown here in that same box. So are there two different versions of this using the same box? Was this the old Winchester Black Talon round before they changed to the more socially accepted SXT round which wasn't black in color as shown above?
Is it the same round? The price and availability seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[stinger 327]

True, they do. But I'd just as soon shoot a 9mm, then. .45 ACP is a very bulky round, to shoot 165 grain bullets.

See in my situation is just the opposite. I shoot the 9mm and I cannot group it as well as the .45 ACP. For some reason the .45 ACP I can hit what I want to hit. The 9mm isn't as accurate for me.
In fact I can hit better with a .357 magnum revolver than the 9mm. It's more accurate even though there is alot more recoil.
Use what works that you can hit with for placement.
Plus the .45 ACP is much easier bullet for me to handle/ pick up than the 9mm so maybe I just feel more comfortable with .45 ACP but whatever the reason the result is I can hit what I point at better.

 

[BBQLS1]

It's a weak handgun round (opposed to a rifle). It probably doesn't matter which. I prefer 230 grain as target ammo is similar for practice. It's been in use for a long time.

 

[stinger 327]

It's a weak handgun round (opposed to a rifle). It probably doesn't matter which. I prefer 230 grain as target ammo is similar for practice. It's been in use for a long time.

Just realize this is at close range 7 yards or less where overpenetration is a major concern with a rifle. Perhaps at this range any .45 ACP round in whatever weight in grains will be sufficient given the short distance and placement.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If my wife is being driven away by a perp, she has her own gun to deal with the situation. I'm not going to make it tougher by shooting at her.

It has been my experience that interpreting possible scenarios in the light of what we want the situation to be can be disasterous.

 

[GlockStar]

Either way, you make contact in a decent location it'll do what you need.

 

[stinger 327]

So now lets narrow it down to brand.
Given the choice then would you take the Corbon 1,150 fps 185 grain HP.45 ACP or the Buffalo Bore 950 fps 230 grain HP .45 ACP?

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I have both a 1911 and a 625 the 625 I load with Super data under a 185gr GS the 1911 Colt 230gr factory ball. if I KNEW I was going to be in a fight and could carry only a pistol those are what I would load.

 

[stinger 327]

I have both a 1911 and a 625 the 625 I load with Super data under a 185gr GS the 1911 Colt 230gr factory ball. if I KNEW I was going to be in a fight and could carry only a pistol those are what I would load.

This must be a handload how about factory load? Not sure what a 625 is. The 230 grain factory load looks like you are going for penetration?

 

[Manco]

Heavier bullets are longer, so given equal penetration and expansion, theoretically they will do more damage if and when they begin to tumble, which seems to happen a lot more often in actual shootings than ballistic gelatin of even consistency. That said, heavier bullets tend to penetrate more deeply into soft, wet media while smaller and faster seems to have an advantage through certain other types of media (also depends on things like bullet materials and construction, of course).

Additionally, heavier, slower bullets are not necessarily harder to shoot. In fact, I usually find heavy-for-caliber bullets more pleasant and easier to shoot than light-for-caliber bullets. While this may not be true for everybody, I'm not the only person for which this observation and subjective opinion are true, either.

 

[stinger 327]

Heavier bullets are longer, so given equal penetration and expansion, theoretically they will do more damage if and when they begin to tumble, which seems to happen a lot more often in actual shootings than ballistic gelatin of even consistency. That said, heavier bullets tend to penetrate more deeply into soft, wet media while smaller and faster seems to have an advantage through certain other types of media (also depends on things like bullet materials and construction, of course).

Additionally, heavier, slower bullets are not necessarily harder to shoot. In fact, I usually find heavy-for-caliber bullets more pleasant and easier to shoot than light-for-caliber bullets. While this may not be true for everybody, I'm not the only person for which this observation and subjective opinion are true, either.

Which one does more damage a .45 185 grain HP traveling at 1,150 fps or a 230 grain HP traveling at 950 fps at close range. It would seem to me that the lighter and faster round would do more damage and penetrate better. It will also have more energy.
But both of these being .45 ACP will still make big holes so maybe it doesn't make a difference at close range?

 

[Ala Dan]

I use the 165 grain Pow'R Ball from Cor-Bon in my CCW; but the 200 grain
Hornady TAP is good also~!

 

[Manco]

Which one does more damage a .45 185 grain HP traveling at 1,150 fps or a 230 grain HP traveling at 950 fps at close range.

Well, if both loads are designed to have similar effects, due to bullet design, then the difference will usually be rather small. Ultimately, if one has access to reliable terminal ballistics test data for specific loads, then one should base their choices on that rather than generalities which may not always hold true in the real world.

It would seem to me that the lighter and faster round would do more damage and penetrate better. It will also have more energy.

Theoretically speaking, energy indicates the amount of work that can be done, which in this case is namely damage to flesh and other materials. That said, there are other important factors at play, including momentum and efficiency. While the 230 grain bullet in this example may have less kinetic energy (potential to wound), it actually has greater momentum, which factors heavily into penetration. At least in wet media, according to the many test results I've seen, heavy bullets (that have higher sectional density in the same caliber) seem to give up their momentum and energy more gradually, typically resulting in deeper penetration. Light bullets with higher energy appear to dump more of their energy into the temporary stretch cavity, which while devastating to wet phonebooks and ballistic gel, may well not have much of an effect on flesh with its greater elasticity and shear and tensile strength. In short, some folks believe that the extra energy is merely being turned into a small amount of heat, thereby making light bullets less efficient than heavy bullets, which evens out their true potentials for wounding.

If we then factor in some of the advantages of having a larger bullet, such as a greater potential to expand (even at lower velocities with modern bullets), greater length that causes more damage if the bullet yaws (some light bullets look like disks after they've fully expanded), and less blast & flash with typical barrel lengths, then we can see why some people prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets. I think they're advantageous for relatively short barrels, as well, because light bullets need more gas to get their momentum high enough, and short barrels will waste even more of the generated gas than full-length barrels (the assumption is that at equal pressure, more gas requires a longer barrel to be fully utilized).

But both of these being .45 ACP will still make big holes so maybe it doesn't make a difference at close range?

They're still small holes in comparison to the size of the typical target of a self-defense shooting. .45 ACP might look big next to 9mm, for example, but the difference isn't much in comparison to the target. Within reason, bullet weight makes even less of a difference, although it doesn't hurt to figure out what is the most optimal load for one's own sensibilities (for peace of mind, if nothing more).

 

[huntsman]

A couple hundred feet per second isn't anything special, today that 230 at ~925 is going to out-penetrate and out-expand the 185 at ~1100. Energy is meaningless at service caliber rates, except to show a very general "which is overall more powerful", and even that isn't useful to determine which is more effective. Use energy to decide between hunting+ calibers. Defense calibers won't show anything beyond an irrelevant general trend in regards to energy.

I like this answer, seems to make the most sense.

I thought the whole reason to carry a .45acp was to shoot the 230gr slug, but I have some of both (185 & 230) in both FMJ and HP what I really want to try is the BB +P hardcast and flatnose.

 

[rscalzo]

with any handgun engagement, shot placement is always the critical factor.... so practice, practice, practice

Best advice to date.

Real world experience - 45ACP "Black Talon" fired point blank. Zero expansion and did not exit the body. Individual was not seriously injured after he shot himself accidentally. While luck had a lot to do with it, I would not count on expansion with the heavier bullets.

By the way SSN VET, I got a first hand look at the new SSN New Hampshire. No way they would get me to spend time in one.

 

[Manco]

IMO, with any handgun engagement, shot placement is always the critical factor.... so practice, practice, practice..

That's true enough, but with so many random factors coming into play, I tend to place emphasis on the ability to track targets while on the move and shoot multiple rounds quickly with reasonable accuracy (i.e. not super-accurate target shots necessarily but still solid COM hits).

Real world experience - 45ACP "Black Talon" fired point blank. Zero expansion and did not exit the body. Individual was not seriously injured after he shot himself accidentally. While luck had a lot to do with it, I would not count on expansion with the heavier bullets.

Expansion at lower velocities was a real issue back in the day, but modern bullets are designed to expand reliably under such conditions.

 

[gym]

I just found for me, I shoot the 45 much better than any other auto round. And the same goes for 38's in a revolver. You can give me statistics all day but when pick up a 45 caliber pistol, if it's my glock 30, or a 1911, I seem to be able to shoot that round as good as a 22. For some reason, the 9mm is almost as good, but the 40 and I never did like each other. On the other hand there are so many choices now, that you can spend your life testing guns and ammo everyday and still never go through them all. I don't feel the need to carry 20 rounds of ammo arround all day along with extra clips, but some do and that's fine. i feel that 7 or 8 rounds and maybe an extra clip with a 45 should be more than enough. If you need more than that, you are probablly going to no longer be here on earth anyway. Who can remember a gun battle where the citizen fired off 10 or 15 rounds. I can't, usually it's 2 or 3 and done. I just shoot the 45 better so it works for me, and those 9mm travel so fast that I just don't see them stopping a couple of 250 pounders, unless you hit them just right, which is hard to do when people are running and shooting, I know I can hit something pretty much square in the center given 3 or 4 shots in a second or two, but I can't swear that I am going to hit a vital organ while backpeddeling pushing my family member out of the line of fire and being shot at all at the same time. Thats another reason to go with the big 45, get a torso shot in and you should stop the fight. You never know what will happen in a gunfight, you may be winged yourself and have to shoot with your weak hand, a hit is a hit, bigger is better, lol

 

[stinger 327]

Best advice to date.

Real world experience - 45ACP "Black Talon" fired point blank. Zero expansion and did not exit the body. Individual was not seriously injured after he shot himself accidentally. While luck had a lot to do with it, I would not count on expansion with the heavier bullets.

By the way SSN VET, I got a first hand look at the new SSN New Hampshire. No way they would get me to spend time in one.

Shot .45 ACP talon into 2 X 4 and it failed to expand. It just got plugged up.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

I carry the Winchester Ranger T 230+P.

This is because a few years back I was at a gun show and a vendor had these for $16.00/50. I bought all he had.

Luckily, these are very accurate out of my XD45 Tactical, and recoil is still not bad.

I like heavy for caliber bullets, and like them going as fast as possible.

I also like the Speer Gold Dot 200gr.+P in my 4" XD45c.

Really, if the box says "45 Auto" on the flap, and you put the hole where it counts, the job is done.

 

[3:00hold]

I use Hydrashoks as well, although I've tried the TAP recently due to problems with availability. I use these mostly because they feel reliably, they've been around a while, and they have low flash - unlike some of the stuff I've tried. Admittedly, my testing did not include every type of ammo on the market.

For handgun bullets, all that matters is the width and depth of the hole for the very complicated and mysterious reason that it makes the bullet more likely to hit stuff. I'll add that if it's too expensive to practice with, you're probably better off with something else. Ball ammo in the BG's chest is better than SUPERKILLERLOAD sideways in the ejection port.

 

[Manco]

I don't feel the need to carry 20 rounds of ammo arround all day along with extra clips, but some do and that's fine. i feel that 7 or 8 rounds and maybe an extra clip with a 45 should be more than enough. If you need more than that, you are probablly going to no longer be here on earth anyway.

Why the defeatist attitude? In an exceedingly rare but still possible extended firefight (with cover for both sides), I figure I'll still be around if I have enough ammo to take out the bad guys first, hold them off until law enforcement arrives, or run them out of ammo. If the bad guys don't like the idea of being in a shootout, then let them give up because I'm certainly not going to (assuming that I can't retreat to safety without getting shot).

Who can remember a gun battle where the citizen fired off 10 or 15 rounds. I can't, usually it's 2 or 3 and done.

True enough--it is rare that crooks stick around when they're attacked by their would-be victims because the vast majority of them simply want to take something of value, and bullets directed at them were not what they had in mind. But it could happen because people occasionally go on shooting rampages, and as the numbers of armed citizens generally increases over time, the probability of hearing about one getting caught in the middle of a potential firefight will increase, as well. And while the probability would still be vanishingly small, by the same token getting robbed at gunpoint or having one's home invaded is fairly rare, too, yet some people choose to be prepared anyway. Over the years, I've also seen a number of videos of mini-shootouts between robbers and store clerks, for which having ample ammo would at the very least be comforting and help one's confidence.

By the way, I'm not refuting anything you said, especially since you didn't fault those who carry a relatively large supply of ammo--I'm merely adding some detail and discussion.

I just shoot the 45 better so it works for me, and those 9mm travel so fast that I just don't see them stopping a couple of 250 pounders, unless you hit them just right, which is hard to do when people are running and shooting, I know I can hit something pretty much square in the center given 3 or 4 shots in a second or two, but I can't swear that I am going to hit a vital organ while backpeddeling pushing my family member out of the line of fire and being shot at all at the same time. Thats another reason to go with the big 45, get a torso shot in and you should stop the fight. You never know what will happen in a gunfight, you may be winged yourself and have to shoot with your weak hand, a hit is a hit, bigger is better, lol

I don't think there is much difference between these calibers--.45 ACP may be slightly more effective than 9mm per round, but both are small in comparison to people and both require hits to vital areas in order to affect a stop. And while bad guys will usually run away when a gun is pointed at them, assailants who are determined to cause one harm will probably require multiple shots to bring down.

 

[gym]

I understand completely, having been in a home invasion, I use different tactics when at home than when out shopping at the mall. Obviouslly we can't take what we would like to with us all of the time. Or I would need a hand cart.