Which "Black" Rifle???

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ronto

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Which is most reliable? Maximum magazine capacity available? Manufacturer customer service support?

(1) Colt LE 6920 Carbine 5.56 Cal.
(2) Sig M400 With Prismatic Scope .223 Cal.
(3) BMI M4A3 Patrol .223 Cal.
(4) Wind R16M4FTT A3 .223 Cal.
(5) DPMS Sportical .308-7.62 NATO Cal.

Any experience with the above would be appreciated.
 
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I really don't think that question can be answered, unless someone here has owned all of the rifles mentioned (best if more than one of each) and then put many thousands of rounds through all of them and took note of the maintenance that each required.

You'll likely be better off picking a rifle that you like or fits your needs and researching that particular model. Doing this will often lead you to a bunch of information on the target of your interest and possibly lead you to a couple of alternatives.
 
Most of that list are all AR-15 variants, so the max magazine capacity is going to be the same for all of them unless someone is making some really out of spec mag wells.

I agree with the previous comment about customer service. It's really hard to get anything more than some anecdotal evidence about customer service, even with a pretty large sample size like a well-subscribed internet gun forum.
 
Colt is the 'best' you have on that list, based on what I know. I'm excluding the Sig as I have no knowledge of their ARs but they should be decent at least based on reputation. DPMS= Didn't Pass Mil Spec. I'd go with the Colt every time.
 
I have only had direct experience with Bushmaster and Colt and hands down the Colt rifle was the better rifle as to an AR15 platform. The Bushmaster worked OK but did have frequent gas system issues and did not offer the out of box accuracy the Colt did. However, that was just my experience with my specific rifles. Someone else could have the reverse experience. My AR10 platform in .308 is ArmaLite and that rifle I really like.

Planning an AR15 soon and considering another Colt to build up or an ArmaLite.

Anyway, I agree as to do your homework, try and shoot a few and decide what trips your trigger and works for you. My experience is you can get bad or good from any manufacturer. As to the rest you mention? I can't comment as I have no direct experience owning them.

Ron
 
The only brand on that list that has an investment grade collectors market is Colt. Get the Colt and treat it like your first born and it will be worth some bucks one day.
 
Get the colt and a bottle of lube and shoot the **** out of it. I have something against pretty guns that have never been used.
 
I did a lot of research before buying mine and what I found is that all you're really gonna get is a bunch of opinions from a bunch of guys that never owned ALL of those rifles. Some opinions will be very specific, most will be quite vague. So here is mine. My S&W M&P15OR cost me $600, shoots MOA with Federal XM193 and has been dead reliable. I've done a few things to it that made it much more useful to me and all it needs now is a good target trigger. Lots of folks will disagree without even really knowing why but I really don't see a reason to pay the Colt premium.

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ronto, one thing I will agree with most guys about is that you will get many differing opinions. There have been quite a few of these types of threads popping up lately, as interest in ARs rises with the up coming election.

You're gonna see some guys knocking or being critical about inexpensive rifles that some choose to buy; and you'll also see guys that bought budget rifles being critical toward those that bought higher priced models because they don't see where the benefit of spending the extra money lies.

I know that the inexpensive rifles being offered by Smith and Wesson have been the topics of many debates.

As has been mentioned, you're going to get lots of opinions, like CraigC's above.
My S&W M&P15OR cost me $600, shoots MOA with Federal XM193 and has been dead reliable. I've done a few things to it that made it much more useful to me and all it needs now is a good target trigger. Lots of folks will disagree without even really knowing why but I really don't see a reason to pay the Colt premium.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but this is a typical post. This is very vague. His rifle has been dead reliable, but over the course of how many rounds. 50? 500? 5000 rounds? Yes, it has been reliable, but in what circumstances? Just plinking at the range for a couple hundred rounds at a time or has it survived one or more carbine courses without failure.

I believe that many doing research to aid them in choosing a rifle that will meet their needs, often ask the wrong questions. I would first seek out a few rifles that I am interested in, because they have the options that I want.

I would then concentrate on those rifles. When asking those questions, you need to look for qualifications in the answers. If there is a claim of reliability, ask what this claim is based on. Find out how many rounds the example rifle has through it and what the internals looked like after having fired X number of rounds.

The only point that I'm getting to is this. Any manufacturer can have a lemon slip by. No matter what you look at, there's always going to be someone that was dissatisfied with it. The only thing left to you, as a buyer, to aid you in making a decision is to try to dig into the track record of the rifle that you are thinking about buying.

I don't consider a rifle with 2000 rounds through it as having any sort of track record, not from a longevity perspective. A rifle with 5000 rounds through it is a good start. At this point, the owner of the rifle can comment about the longevity of the components. Like, how's the barrel holding up? Any noticeable decrease in accuracy? What does the bolt look like? How's the bolt around the cam pin hole? What does the carrier look like? How's the cam pin slot? At what point did you have to change the cam pin? Is there any undue wear in the upper, lower? How did the trigger do? Did you break any trigger parts? Problems with any of these only show up with use.

A guy that bought a rifle and only has 500 rounds through it really shouldn't be commenting at all, or at least should say that he only has 500 rounds through it.

I also feel compelled to address Craigs claim of MOA with M193. This is the sort of claim that can leave some guys scratching their head because they don't get the same results. I'm not going to say that Craig is full of it, because I don't know. He may have a very special rifle.

I will say that I've shot LOTS of ARs and many of them were precision builds and none of them will hold MOA with any sort of consistency with M193. The fact of the matter is that M193 is a solid 2 MOA ammo and that's all it was ever intended to be.
 
I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but this is a typical post. This is very vague.
That was kind of my point. Like the posts touting how great the Colt's are, I've never heard it explained why or seen it proven true. I know enough about their handguns to know that just because it has "Colt" stamped on it does not mean it's automatically good. You don't really learn much from posts like mine. Most shooters are like me and will post a response like mine. Limited in perspective. They like their rifle and no other rifle is like it. Only I'm a little more realistic and objective. It's my AR, not my wife. I have only ever had one AR and it's only two years old. Even if I provide those details you asked for, it is still statistically insignificant.

Dead reliable is over 1000rds, most of them dirty. I think the rifle's only been cleaned once. Which was also to prove to myself that all the ranting about how unreliable they are was just a bunch of internet lore perpetuated by AK shooters. Conditions have ranged from plinking on a bright sunny day, to a little bit of rain to a few hunting situations but nothing what I would call serious. Certainly nothing that compares to military combat.

I was as surprised as you are with the way the rifle shoots XM193. But yes, MOA, consistently through a whole case of the stuff. Even better with Remington 50gr JHP's and Hornady 55gr V-Max. Both of which are very effective on coyotes.
 
Craig, if your rifles shoots MOA, consistently, with M193 you either have a very special rifle on got a hold of a particularly good lot of M193.

In any case, reliability is, in a way, subjective. Your rifle has been reliable over 1000 rounds. It's not having been cleaned is a non issue because any AR that has been put together right and is in spec should run dirty, as long as it's been properly lubed.

Of course, reliability also entails performance under strain. When the parts are smoking, skin searing hot. It is under these sorts of continued conditions that some lesser rifles will fail. Most will never drive their rifles that hard and will, therefor, never realize the benefits of buying something like a Colt. As a practical matter, I'd guess that most AR owners don't put more than 1000 or 2000 rounds through their rifle in a year.
 
Is MOA really that extraordinary with an AR? I get 2MOA out of my Colt with a thin barrel and non-floated guard and me pulling on the leash pretty hard. With a good barrel, free floated, and a nice trigger plus the right mix of ammo and barrel, you should be able to do it. These are inherently very accurate rifles from all I've seen. It's when you start getting in to the SUB MOA territory that the competition really begins.
 
No, MOA with an AR is not extraordinary. MOA with an AR running M193 is, however, not the norm.
 
CraigC, I like what you did with your M&P nice. Where did you get that scope, I am looking for something simular for my carry handle.

Jim

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MOA with an AR running M193 is, however, not the norm.

Well exactly what "M193" are we talking about here? Federal XM193 is not the same as crusty rusty old surplus. I don't think it's all that impossible, and besides there's no doubt that once you start trying to zero in within that inch, the wheat and chaff are very quickly separated.
 
I'm sure MOA with XM193 is not common, as it was the cheapest domestic ammo I could find. I'm not saying that this is typical but that's the problem with anecdotal information obtained one piece at a time. Statistically it doesn't mean much if I'm on one extreme end of the spectrum that averages more like 2MOA.

Yes, I've seen "the chart", many times but I'm still not so sure how much of that translates to the real world. "Mil-spec" is a good thing if that's what you want but mil-spec does not necessarily translate as "as good as is humanly possible". As an example, chrome lined bores are not conducive to fine accuracy and are really only necessary in sustained fully automatic fire. I'm fairly certain that is not important in my shooting because I don't own an M16 and magazine dumps are rare.


Where did you get that scope
It's a Leupold VariX II that came off another rifle. It now wears a Millett 1-4x that came off yet another rifle. Haven't yet decided on what it will end up with but the little Leupold was is much lighter than the 30mm Millett.
 
No, I'm talking about Federal M193 manufactured at the Lake City plant. Yeah, the "good" stuff. It is not, nor was it ever intended to be precision ammuntion by any stretch of the imagination. It is just a rock solid and reliable ammunition. That's it.

Like I said, if you can get consistent MOA groups out of your AR with M193, then you have something special going on.

I don't think it's all that impossible

I know that articulating yourself on the net sometimes leaves room for misinterpretation, so I'm asking; are you basing your above post on a belief or actual practice? I've had several ARs that shot very sub MOA with match handloads and I've shot tens of thousands of rounds of M193 and I'm saying, based on experience, that shooting MOA with that ammunition is more the exception than the rule.
 
Remington Golden Bullets were never intended to be precision ammunition either but that doesn't keep my CZ 452FS from piling them into a half inch at 50yds, on average. Now, there's more extreme spread between the groups (0.30" to 0.65" in one string of six five-shot groups) but the average is still a half inch. Wolf MT is excellent but only improves the average by 0.10". It's just a lot more consistent. IMHO, the only constant is unpredictability.
 
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