Which had more revolutionary impact: Glock or Colt 1911?

[huntsman]

Some are cast, some forged, some US made, some not. However, I've never seen a MIM frame.

MIM parts cast frames an attempt to keep production costs down.

 

[the_skunk]

A Chevy Volt is revolutionary compared to a '66 Jaguar XKE but which one would you like to have in your garage?

Now, that's a cruel thing to say.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Generally correct.



Speculative. We'll know more in a century or so.



Some are, some aren't-in the 1911 and other guns. A loose mil-spec 1911 is going to have more drop-in parts than a tight custom, and the same is true of any other design.



Yeah, you're right. There are no hi cap 1911s...........except for those from Para, Kimber, STI, SV, Wilson Combat, Springfield Armory, Detonics, RIA, Llama...............

To add to this, Glock also states that not all of it's parts are compatible between different generations of it's handguns of similar model. Bummer.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Several. Of course, they aren't going to be nice and tight like the semi-customs, and won't boast the same level of accuracy as a hand-fitted gun.

There seems to be this misconception that all 1911s require careful hand fitting of every part by an expert gunsmith. It simply isn't so, especially if you're not trying to build a bullseye gun.

I already know about the older 1911s. I said, what 1911s are made today that have drop in parts.

Did I say that? There were a lot of factors that went into that decision, and it was more than just one trial.

You did, you said that those that use their handguns go for .45s (which isn't true either way) which implies that the Army doesn't use their handguns at all.

WOW. Maybe the effect was unintended.....it is hard to believe that the accuracy of a gun and the quality of its trigger can be dismissed in such a cavalier fashion.

Because you aren't shooting small targets at a distance, you are shooting another human being within I would say 20 yards. A match trigger and 2" accuracy wouldn't be a factor. Countless people seem to get by these days with a handgun with inferior accuracy and trigger.

To add to this, Glock also states that not all of it's parts are compatible between different generations of it's handguns of similar model. Bummer.

That's why you issue the same generation handgun across the board. I was making a point that most if not all 1911s don't have drop in parts. You wouldn't be able to interchange parts from one gun to another of the same model. Not one from a different Generation. BIG difference there.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I said, what 1911s are made today that have drop in parts.

I already told you. All of them to a certain extent, and some to a much greater degree.

How about a Kimber slide & link pin on a Colt frame with colt barrel bushing? Those aren't just two different guns of the same model, but two very different models from very different manufacturers.



The barrels wont interchange, of course, because one is a fully ramped 10mm, the other a conventional .45 barrel. If the Kimber were a .45, it would work. As for other parts, well, I'm just not willing to tear these guns down any further to show you what I already know.

The only part of a 1911 that really needs to be hand-fitted is the sear & hammer for proper engagement. Parts made oversize with the intent of being tightly fitted are a different story, but you could take a pile of parts from two Colt Government models and make two whole guns without any trouble, only really paying attention to the sear engagement.

When it comes to aftermarket parts, some are drop-in (MSH and such), but others, like barrels, may require fitting because they are made oversize so that they can be fit to many different 1911s from many different makers who don't all have the exact same specs. This is not a design problem; It is a result of market saturation creating a logistical nightmare for a company trying to make truly direct-fit parts. This is also a situation that does not plague the Glock (yet). But it is not unique to the 1911; Any oft-copied design will have this situation with aftermarket parts, whether it's a 1911, an AR-15 or something completely different, like an MSD or Accel V8 spark plug wire set that has to be cut to fit, because it would be silly for the manufacturer to make 50 different sets to be OEM fit on each engine when they can just make one set and supply a crimping tool.

You did

Please, PLEASE, show me where I said the military chose the M9 for aesthetic reasons

I was making a point that most if not all 1911s don't have drop in parts. You wouldn't be able to interchange parts from one gun to another of the same model.

You don't have the slightest clue what your talking about here. You've made that abundantly, painfully clear.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Please, PLEASE, show me where I said the military chose the M9 for aesthetic reasons

Here but I misread what you said.

The 9mm didn't officially enter service with the US armed forces until 1990, and it's been griped about ever since. Forces that actually use their handguns often choose the .45 ACP: MEUSOC pistol (a 1911) and HK Mk23

Often is the keyword I missed, sorry. I thought you said that those that use their handguns in combat only picked .45s.

You don't have the slightest clue what your talking about here. You've made that abundantly, painfully clear.

Should have clarified and said all parts. I'm going by what nearly everyone says and that is that you can't interchange parts between 1911s reliably unless it's a original GI 1911.

 

[JRH6856]

I'm going by what nearly everyone says and that is that you can't interchange parts between 1911s reliably unless it's a original GI 1911.

Are you then saying that you can reliably exchange parts between original Glocks and later copies of Glocks made by other manufacturers?

 

[Feanor]

Yeah right. WWI, WWII, Korean War and Vietnam were minor conflicts for the US. -Try to get somewhat of a clue. There was ZERO new or revolutionary about gLoCk, regardless of what the ignorant continue to believe.

I notice that you do this same thing in every other gun forum on the web, which essentially is bashing other folks who have differing opinions then your own, and definitely bashing anything Glock. I've dealt with you more then once before, especially at M4carbine where you've made other ridiculous statements, such as the one quoted above, usually you then run to the mods when someone such as myself, steps in and corrects your hyperbolic rhetoric.

Honestly, when is it that you find the time to actually experience a real firearm, as opposed to simply posting in every gun forum on the www, and bashing away, "ignorantly," at that which you very obviously, have little understanding of?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Are you then saying that you can reliably exchange parts between original Glocks and later copies of Glocks made by other manufacturers?

More so then a 1911 to my knowledge.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm going by what nearly everyone says and that is that you can't interchange parts between 1911s reliably unless it's a original GI 1911.

Don't believe everything you hear (or read), especially on the errornet. More misinformation exists about the 1911 than probably any other gun.

As well, no other handgun has been as copied and tinkered with-sometimes done right, but often not. When it does come to accurizing and fitting custom parts to a 1911, it's not something a guy who just finished assembling his first AR should do. Just like building an engine, when you start doing things to increase performance, you have to have a good understanding of how the parts interrelate. Anyone with a Chilton's manual and a torque wrench can bolt together a bone-stock 350 chevy, but when you start porting heads, installing stroker cranks, bumping compression, running chromoly rings, etc., you'd better know a thing or five about engines. The same is true of 1911s (or any other gun you modify substantially).

Right now, the Glock is only made by Glock, so there is only one specification for parts, and even the aftermarket companies can churn out drop-in everything. If, 30 years from now, you have two dozen companies producing knock-offs with all kinds of different materials and alterations, the game will change drastically.

 

[el Godfather]

There is a reason why 1911 is copied by so many companies.

Is it a coincident that after Glock's plastic gun, we saw a boom in polymer gun industry, when HK had already built one decade back?

May be a good third option in this poll would have been a CZ, which is copied by many other companies, although there is debate that CZ was copied from p210?

 

[meanmrmustard]

There is a reason why 1911 is copied by so many companies.

Is it a coincident that after Glock's plastic gun, we saw a boom in polymer gun industry, when HK had already built one decade back?

May be a good third option in this poll would have been a CZ, which is copied by many other companies, although there is debate that CZ was copied from p210?

CZs are my pistol of choice, but they are about as revolutionary as the Glock is, which is not at all. Put it up against the 1911 based on your OP, and it too would be drastically behind in the polls, such as the Glock is now. It hasn't done anything new, or added a yet unseen design that's changed firearms history. If you'd asked which of the three was BETTER, then this becomes a subjective
thread full of fanboyism and bashing. Having shot or owned any combination of two of them minus the Glock, the 1911 and CZ are a cut above in my book. Accuracy is mainly up to the shooter, but these two are inheritely so, I can't hit jack with a Glock.

Plus, you answered your own question. 1911s are copied. Manufacturers making plastic guns are trying to cut in on that market, not making Glock copies, but designs of their own with polymer frames. Big difference there.

 

[Armed012002]

It appears that the word "revolutionary" has the same meaning as "influential" in this thread.

In that case, the Glock is just as "revolutionary" as the 1911. However, I still hold the opinion that neither design is truly "revolutionary." I do hold the opinion that both are very influential in the continued evolution of handguns.

Browning changed the way a lot of handguns operate and made a huge impact on the industry. After Browning designed the 1911 and Hi-Power, many handguns that came after operate the same.

Glock changed the way a lot of handguns are built and made a huge impact on the industry After the Glock was introduced, many manufacturers began building handguns the same way Glock builds his.

The Glock is to manufacturing what the 1911 is to design.

Teachu2 sums it up quite well:

Glock built on what came before it, using modern technology to revolutionize the production of handguns. Then, at least in the U.S., they engaged in marketing to LE in a way that bordered on predatory (you can make your own decision as to which side of the border!) in order to get Glocks adopted by many agencies, which led to widespread public acceptance. The quality of Glock products has built on that initial market penetration, and forced a number of other manufacturers to compete - much like Ford's assembly line revolutionized the auto industry. Ford, like Glock, used technology to revolutionize the production of a product that was pretty similar to others. Ford, like Glock, simplified the product as much as possible, standardized parts so that they were interchangable and could be mass produced, and initially produced one model - in any color you wanted, as long as it was black.

The 1911 was a design breakthrough, the Glock a manufacturing breakthrough. Both have had, and will continue to have, a large impact on the industry.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Definition of revolution: Marked by or resulting in radical change.

It doesn't SEEM that revolutionary means influential, the two are synonymous. Other than simplifying his manufacturing process, where's Gaston's influence? Their parts may be interchangeable amongst same generations, But not all Glocks have interchanging parts. Seems if we would have stood by ole Eli Whitney, most of what we used would interchange. But there isn't just one model of Glock or 1911. Different Gens, series 70 or 80, different calibers. The 1911, first and foremost in this discussion, has been influential. I no longer see any feasible argument that the Glockophiles can muster that would unseat the current a**whooping the polls here are showing. Since this is a one sided ping pong match with no real informative value any longer, I'm retiring from this one. Good luck Glockies, you're gonna need it.

 

[wickedsprint]

It wasn't the 1911 that was revolutionary, it was JMB.

 

[Nushif]

The 1911, first and foremost in this discussion, has been influential. I no longer see any feasible argument that the Glockophiles can muster that would unseat the current a**whooping the polls here are showing. Since this is a one sided ping pong match with no real informative value any longer, I'm retiring from this one. Good luck Glockies, you're gonna need it.

Truly objective, highroad and utterly unemotionally argued. A breakthrough in logical argument. No doubt.
[edit]
And pretty much the picture perfect summary of this thread.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Looks like this thread is turning into another pot hole in the Highroad.
Looks like more bashing and ego stroking is going on and staying on topic is very hard for some.
This thread is really starting to get funny.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Right now, the Glock is only made by Glock,

Actually you can buy all the parts and make a 100% aftermarket Glock including the frame and slide.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Actually you can buy all the parts and make a 100% aftermarket Glock including the frame and slide.

You can, but you cannot buy an assembled pistol from LW or CCF to my knowledge. Those are the only two aftermarket Glock frames I'm aware of. And, of course, both are specifically designed and produced on modern CNC equipment to work with factory Glock parts (though they do have some proprietary parts).

The 1911 is a whole 'nother ball game.

I sangged this list of current and past 1911 makers from DSK over at the 1911 forums:

A.J. Savage (US gov't contract slides only)
American Classic
American Tactical
A&R Sales
AMT
Armi Dallera Custom (ADC)
Armscor
Astra
ATI
Australian Precision Arms
Auto Ordnance
Briley
Brolin Arms
Cabot
Caspian (slides and frames only)
Charles Daly
Cimarron
Citadel
CO Arms
Colt (commercial and US/foreign gov't contract)
Chiappa (.22LR 1911 copy)
Crown City
Cylinder & Slide
Dan Wesson
Detonics
Devel
Dlask Arms
D&L Sports
Double Star
Ed Brown
EMF
Essex (slides and frames only)
Federal Ordnance
Falcon
Firestorm
Freedom Arms
Fusion
Gemini Custom
Griffon Combat
GSG (.22LR 1911 copy)
Guncrafter Industries
Hero Guns
High Standard
Imbel
Imperial Defense
Infinity
Interstate Arms (Regent)
Irwindale Arms Industries (IAI)
Israeli Arms Industries (also called IAI)
Ithaca (current resurrected company)
Ithaca (US gov't contract only)
Iver Johnson
Karl Lippard
Kimber
Kongsberg (M/1914 pistol manufactured in Norway under Colt license)
LAR
Les Baer
Llama
Lone Star
Magnum Research
Maximus Custom
Metro Arms
Mitchell
MP Express
Nighthawk
Norinco
North American Arms Co. Ltd.
Nowlin
Para Ordnance
Pistol Dynamics
Olympic Arms
Omega Defense
Peter Stahl
Randall
Ranger
Reeder Custom
Regent
Remington Arms (current)
Remington Rand (US gov't contract only)
Remington-UMC (US gov't contract only)
Rock Island Armory
Rock River Arms
Ruger
Safari Arms
S.A.M
Sarco
Sig Sauer
Singer (US gov't contract only)
Sistema (aka D.G.F.M.-F.M.A.P.) (M1927 pistol manufactured in Argentina under Colt license)
Smith & Wesson
South Fork Arms/Perkins Custom
Springfield Armory (former military arsenal in MA, made 1911s from 1914-1917 under US gov't contract)
Springfield Armory (commercial business established in 1974, not associated with above)
STI
SVI
Tanfoglio
Taurus
Taylor & Co.
TİSAŞ
Turnbull Mfg.
Unertl
Union Switch & Signal (US gov't contract only)
Uselton Arms
USFA
Walther/Umarex (.22LR 1911 copy)
Wilson Combat
Vega (frames only)
Valtro
Victory Arms
Volkman

 

[dogtown tom]

MachIVshooter.....I sangged this list of current and past 1911 makers....

Many of those "manufacturers" were only importers of someone elses 1911.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Revolution

A turning around.

The 1911 was not a "turning around", only because it was introduced too early for anyone to have strong pre-conceived notions about pistols. Only six candidates could be produced for the 1906 Army trials, and only three of those made it past even the first cut. Competing designers from Savage and DWM, looking at the 1911, didn't think "that'll never work"---more like: "Man, why did I think of that!"

In contrast, the Glock started with everyone's mind against it. It did and it continues to change minds, 180 degrees. To turn them right around.

Just not everyone's.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Many of those "manufacturers" were only importers of someone elses 1911.

I didn't create or edit the list. Take your gripe up with DSK over there.

And "many" is not quite accurate; I see about 6 (out of more than 100).

Even if 3/4 of the list were the same gun by a different importer, the point remains.

 

[Feanor]

A turning around.

The 1911 was not a "turning around", only because it was introduced too early for anyone to have strong pre-conceived notions about pistols. Only six candidates could be produced for the 1906 Army trials, and only three of those made it past even the first cut. Competing designers from Savage and DWM, looking at the 1911, didn't think "that'll never work"---more like: "Man, why did I think of that!"

In contrast, the Glock started with everyone's mind against it. It did and it continues to change minds, 180 degrees. To turn them right around.

Just not everyone's.

It's been my experience that the most voiciferous opposition to the "Glock" brand, emerges from those with either the least practical shooting experience(marginal skills), older but skilled shooters who just will never be able to get past the idea of plastic, or young males much more concerned with fashion than function!

In my circle its virtually universal, all the experienced 1911 guys shoot Glocks, and they shoot them very well.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I have been carrying a Glock 22 4th Gen. as my duty weapon for the past year and a half. I carried a Glock 22 3rd Gen. for 8 1/2 years before that. I like the Glock but have never been able to shoot it as well as my 1911s.
I also have a S&W M&P and shoot it a hell of a lot better then my Glock.

Revolutionary impact? I say that the 1911 had more the the Glock.
Innovation? I give that one to Glock.

I think that some need to look at the definitions of these two words to understand what they are talking about.

Revolutionary new and different: so new and different as to cause a major change in something.

Innovation is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society.

I know that many have strong Opinions but there is no need to be rude just because someone does not agree with your Opinion.

And for those that have trouble with words here is the definition for the word Opinion:
In general, an opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments.[1] In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Truly objective, highroad and utterly unemotionally argued. A breakthrough in logical argument. No doubt.
[edit]
And pretty much the picture perfect summary of this thread.

Pm sent