mljdeckard
Member
You may use it. I got it from my Sergeant-Major.
Glock 21 vs. 1911
- Thread starter MagnumDweeb
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wickedsprint
Member
On paper the G21 wins.
Pun intended if you can shoot the Glock better.
I would venture a serious bet that most people can shoot the G21 better than a 1911, ESPECIALLY a 1911 priced within a 100 bucks of the Glock. Myself included.
I have heard of some small parts issues with the Glocks though and a good friend of mine had to have something in his Glock 19 pinned back in place. Glocks looks like the inside of a VCR when you remove their slide. I would probably break anything in the reciever if I tried to fix it.
If I had to choose only 1, I'd take a good 1911 in a standard GI configuration though.
Since I don't have to choose, I have both.
Pun intended if you can shoot the Glock better.
I would venture a serious bet that most people can shoot the G21 better than a 1911, ESPECIALLY a 1911 priced within a 100 bucks of the Glock. Myself included.
I have heard of some small parts issues with the Glocks though and a good friend of mine had to have something in his Glock 19 pinned back in place. Glocks looks like the inside of a VCR when you remove their slide. I would probably break anything in the reciever if I tried to fix it.
If I had to choose only 1, I'd take a good 1911 in a standard GI configuration though.
Since I don't have to choose, I have both.
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
JTQ,
The book is Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes. You can get it from the 'net in PDF format or order it from Paladin Press.
The XD safety system is operationally the same as a 1911 with a pinned thumb safety (minus the actual safety, of course).
***
I see the "GUN PC POLICE" are out in force.
IT WAS LITERALLY ONE ERROR IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DRAWS ACROSS A LONG TIME.
But to disparage someone's skills without experiencing their instruction is just...silly. You, David E, are not high road. Unless, of course, you've attended a course. In that case, please PM me with your criticism and I'll talk to him about it.
***
Never mind what OTHER instructors say about what happens in force on force. Gabe Suarez comes to mind and he writes extensively about what happens in those moments. His articles are not hard to find and are published on his forum. A bit of research will reveal that other instructors say similar things about what happens under stress with regard to operating a handgun.
***
Glocks have problems too and those have been extensively discussed on THR. I documented the problems I have with the Glock 21 design in my "Glock 21 Carry Evaluation" thread. It's not perfect, despite Glock's marketing department.
***
*** is this all about you thinking I don't know the history of the 1911? Sheesh. The Glock 21 is just another iteration on the combat handgun concept. It's an improvement over that and other designs. Other guns have come along since the Glock design that include improvements...the adjustable grips of the S&W M&P comes to mind as an example. HK has interesting options that make the gun more configurable (like going DAO or "Hi-Power-like" in their USP line). Again, I see these as improvements since they give the buyer choice.
But, heaven forbid that someone QUESTION and THINK about the advantages and disadvantages of a GUN DESIGN such as the 1911.
The book is Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes. You can get it from the 'net in PDF format or order it from Paladin Press.
The XD safety system is operationally the same as a 1911 with a pinned thumb safety (minus the actual safety, of course).
***
I see the "GUN PC POLICE" are out in force.
IT WAS LITERALLY ONE ERROR IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DRAWS ACROSS A LONG TIME.
But to disparage someone's skills without experiencing their instruction is just...silly. You, David E, are not high road. Unless, of course, you've attended a course. In that case, please PM me with your criticism and I'll talk to him about it.
***
Never mind what OTHER instructors say about what happens in force on force. Gabe Suarez comes to mind and he writes extensively about what happens in those moments. His articles are not hard to find and are published on his forum. A bit of research will reveal that other instructors say similar things about what happens under stress with regard to operating a handgun.
***
Glocks have problems too and those have been extensively discussed on THR. I documented the problems I have with the Glock 21 design in my "Glock 21 Carry Evaluation" thread. It's not perfect, despite Glock's marketing department.
***
*** is this all about you thinking I don't know the history of the 1911? Sheesh. The Glock 21 is just another iteration on the combat handgun concept. It's an improvement over that and other designs. Other guns have come along since the Glock design that include improvements...the adjustable grips of the S&W M&P comes to mind as an example. HK has interesting options that make the gun more configurable (like going DAO or "Hi-Power-like" in their USP line). Again, I see these as improvements since they give the buyer choice.
But, heaven forbid that someone QUESTION and THINK about the advantages and disadvantages of a GUN DESIGN such as the 1911.
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
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- 1,356
This post requires a separate response.
Just because the DOD makes a requirement does not make it the definitive definition of what something should be. There are many other considerations to take into account. In the case of the DOD's requirements for a handgun to have a manual safety, one primary consideration is liability. Yes, liability--at least according to the research I have done and commentary I have seen regarding that last proposal for a new handgun in 45 ACP. Additionally, since the DOD considers the handgun to be a secondary weapon, I can fully understand their reasoning behind including additional features such as a thumb safety. It's a way to be conveniently armed in a warzone...makes sense.
If you have different information, I'm very interested in seeing it.
Again, I do believe I'm seeing someone who is failing to objectively evaluate a variety of firearm designs. Your opinion certainly doesn't have additional weight just because you are a soldier.
mljdeckard
Member
Interesting. The DOD requires safetys on all of their PRIMARY weapons as well.
I've carried over a dozen handgun models extensively. What you are suggesting, that a manual safety is a hinderance has never occurred to me. You need to learn your weapon system no matter what it is.
You can disagree with the DOD all you want. I frequently do. But THEIR point of view in defining equipment certainly holds more weight than YOURS. I cannot see how you are viewing it more objectively than THEY are. You have one class with one instructor you are entirely enamored with, and listen to what he says, even if it's contrary to Clint Smith. Massad Ayoob, and the many thousands of soldiers who have found the 1911 to work just fine in combat.
I've carried over a dozen handgun models extensively. What you are suggesting, that a manual safety is a hinderance has never occurred to me. You need to learn your weapon system no matter what it is.
You can disagree with the DOD all you want. I frequently do. But THEIR point of view in defining equipment certainly holds more weight than YOURS. I cannot see how you are viewing it more objectively than THEY are. You have one class with one instructor you are entirely enamored with, and listen to what he says, even if it's contrary to Clint Smith. Massad Ayoob, and the many thousands of soldiers who have found the 1911 to work just fine in combat.
JImbothefiveth
Member
That's not true. For instance, there was one time where someone had to shoot someone about 2 dozen times before they stopped. Another that required at least 4 rounds of .45.
John Parker
Member
- Joined
- May 14, 2009
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- 679
Man, you guys need to calm down. This conversation is not worth getting so worked up about.
weisse52
Member
You wouldn't know that if you read some of these posts.
Some do, some talk about....
308win
Member
Check out the S&W 4586 before you pull the trigger on your selection. The only negative is they are a large handgun.
mljdeckard
Member
If all you need is three bullets, then why carry any more than that?
That's the statement of someone who has neither seen combat, nor participated in force-on-force training. No matter how easy they make it look in the movies, reality never gives you ideal circumstances when you are a life and death situation. You can take fire. You can return fire. You can wound. YOU CAN GET WOUNDED. You STILL have to stay in the fight until it's over. You must know how to continue fighting and how to run your weapon with one hand, EITHER hand, reload, clear a stoppage, and keep firing.
I was in a gun shop not too long ago, and a guy was looking at a Remington AR-10, and asking about the availability of magazines. A ....hunter type said, "Well, if you need more than one shot, you don't know what you're doing anyway." I asked him, "So, all of your weapons are single-shot, and you don't own any magazines for anything?" He stood there and looked stupid while everyone giggled.
A combat handgun, whether you're in town or on the battlefield, is what you use when everything else has gone catastrophically wrong. You can't use your rifle. You have no backup. There are no police anywhere near. All of your other plans to keep yourself alive have failed. YOU MUST ASSUME THAT YOUR WEAPON WILL MALFUNCTION AS WELL. There are no one-shot stops. you must train planning that your weapon will fail, your magazine will fail to feed, you will shoot the bad guy and he will keep coming. Everything must be redundant. But if you think you can do all of this with three rounds, go ahead and try it.
That's the statement of someone who has neither seen combat, nor participated in force-on-force training. No matter how easy they make it look in the movies, reality never gives you ideal circumstances when you are a life and death situation. You can take fire. You can return fire. You can wound. YOU CAN GET WOUNDED. You STILL have to stay in the fight until it's over. You must know how to continue fighting and how to run your weapon with one hand, EITHER hand, reload, clear a stoppage, and keep firing.
I was in a gun shop not too long ago, and a guy was looking at a Remington AR-10, and asking about the availability of magazines. A ....hunter type said, "Well, if you need more than one shot, you don't know what you're doing anyway." I asked him, "So, all of your weapons are single-shot, and you don't own any magazines for anything?" He stood there and looked stupid while everyone giggled.
A combat handgun, whether you're in town or on the battlefield, is what you use when everything else has gone catastrophically wrong. You can't use your rifle. You have no backup. There are no police anywhere near. All of your other plans to keep yourself alive have failed. YOU MUST ASSUME THAT YOUR WEAPON WILL MALFUNCTION AS WELL. There are no one-shot stops. you must train planning that your weapon will fail, your magazine will fail to feed, you will shoot the bad guy and he will keep coming. Everything must be redundant. But if you think you can do all of this with three rounds, go ahead and try it.
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