Which is the better indicator of impending head separation?

[Slamfire]

I once had a brand new case fail in similar fashion while working up loads. Was loading up using customer supplied brand new brass when it occurred.

View attachment 1003405

Was far enough away from published maximum loads in charge, I decided to section another case that had not been loaded.

View attachment 1003404

After that I switched over to once fired brass I had and finished working up the load. So there is a chance old age was not the only issue.

Yes, case flaws happen in new cases. There are a number of case head rupture pictures of new Russian ammunition. But I want to caution those about pulled military cases. The stuff was discarded because it was too old to keep in storage anymore or it was too dangerous to issue, because of age. And, if Scharch tumbles this case, you won't see the corrosion that occurred due to gun powder deterioration.

 

[Charlie98]

The case came from Scharch, it was from pull down military surplus.

Interestingly enough, my bad cases... and there was 2 lots of 1000 cases, each bought at different times... came from Scharch. Since then, I have sworn completely off sourcing rifle brass from any other source than MY once-fired (or new...) brass. That does not set aside the potential for bad brass from any source, but it cuts it down a whole lot.

Besides the blown out case heads, these 2 lots of brass developed other problems...

Longitudinal cracks along the body (WCC brass)...



Neck splits (also WCC brass)...



...all that after only one firing.

Scharch, and very likely most other military brass that is not specifically sold as 'pull down' or components, was sourced from once-fired brass, fired by the military, and turned in for disposition. When I was in the Army in the '80's, that's where I worked... RXA, or Recoverable eXchange Activity, at Fort Carson. Anything that was user recoverable had to be turned into RXA for disposition... we are talking everything from torn tents, to tires, M60 tank engines... and, yes, brass. It was brought to us from the ammo point in 55gal drums, or whatever they had setting around...

See all that junk along the wall? That's recovered property waiting for me to take it to the civilians across the street for final disposition.



Some things, like tank engines, will be rebuilt. Most of that crap... and there are barrels up at the top of the ramp mixed in with the road wheels full of brass... will be sold as scrap at auction. This is the source for 'once-fired military' brass in most cases. Here's the kicker... brass is sold as scrap, NOT as spent brass cases, if you see the difference. It is NOT intended to be sold as reloading components... and it is not stored as such. Out in the elements, in possibly contaminated containers, wide open.

The other problem is what fired the brass... in the case of 7.62mm, my problem brass, it was most likely fired in a machine gun, which stretches cases by it's nature. Anyone can process this brass all they want, but the damage has already been done. Mix in poor storage, and possible contamination... and you have a recipe for disaster. 5.56mm brass is a little different, but it's stored the same way... see my point above.

There is also actual 'pull-down' components being sold as well... I bought some pulled Lake City 18 primed brass in 7.62mm a few years ago. The reason it was pulled brass was most likely because it failed some contract parameter, or it was rejected for other reasons. To recoup their losses, it is then sold, and resold to we reloaders. This brass in particular was spotted... not full-on corrosion spots, but enough where it would likely be rejected at final inspection, or at periodic inspection. At the end of the day, I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on this stuff, and just bought another case of Prvi loaded ammos and been done with it.



Loaded ammo is no guarantee, either... this is a case of LC16 7.62mm ammos I bought, in Federal packaging... It was so filthy I wondered if they didn't sweep it up off the floor. It, too, had spots, but not as bad as the pull-down cases I bought.

 

[milboltnut]

If it didn’t have any green, you’re likely OK

had green....

 

[Walkalong]

Not good, how much damage is the question now, but I tend to scrap any cases with any green.

 

[Blue68f100]

If you find that they are bad I would love to get one for training, as I have never felt a bad one and I'd use it to learn.

I was in my shot today and found only one I use for training new hand loaders. I machined a window into this 556 so you can actually see inside. This one shows the very shallow ring on the outside. Once you look inside it it's worst than you think. I have one more but it's almost separated so it's very obvious it's bad. I've only run across these 2 in all the decades I've been hand loading. These showed up on a way over gasses AR-15, with too light of a buffer. What happens when you extract the brass under too much pressure.



pm me if you want it.

 

[AJC1]

I was in my shot today and found only one I use for training new hand loaders. I machined a window into this 556 so you can actually see inside. This one shows the very shallow ring on the outside. Once you look inside it it's worst than you think. I have one more but it's almost separated so it's very obvious it's bad. I've only run across these 2 in all the decades I've been hand loading. These showed up on a way over gasses AR-15, with too light of a buffer. What happens when you extract the brass under too much pressure.

View attachment 1003558

pm me if you want it.

I am interested, I think it's more talked about than a common occurrence. Gas guns seem to have the problem more often.

 

[Blue68f100]

PM me your address and I will mail it too you.

 

[Slamfire]

Some things, like tank engines, will be rebuilt. Most of that crap... and there are barrels up at the top of the ramp mixed in with the road wheels full of brass... will be sold as scrap at auction. This is the source for 'once-fired military' brass in most cases. Here's the kicker... brass is sold as scrap, NOT as spent brass cases, if you see the difference. It is NOT intended to be sold as reloading components... and it is not stored as such. Out in the elements, in possibly contaminated containers, wide open.

The other problem is what fired the brass... in the case of 7.62mm, my problem brass, it was most likely fired in a machine gun, which stretches cases by it's nature. Anyone can process this brass all they want, but the damage has already been done. Mix in poor storage, and possible contamination... and you have a recipe for disaster. 5.56mm brass is a little different, but it's stored the same way... see my point above.

There is also actual 'pull-down' components being sold as well... I bought some pulled Lake City 18 primed brass in 7.62mm a few years ago. The reason it was pulled brass was most likely because it failed some contract parameter, or it was rejected for other reasons. To recoup their losses, it is then sold, and resold to we reloaders. This brass in particular was spotted... not full-on corrosion spots, but enough where it would likely be rejected at final inspection, or at periodic inspection. At the end of the day, I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on this stuff, and just bought another case of Prvi loaded ammos and been done with it.

Very interesting, and what a beautiful view of the Rockies! Your post, if I can remember it, will be valuable in discussing pull down brass. Even if the brass did not have deteriorated gunpowder in it, then there is the real chance cases were open to the environment. And does anyone remember the term "Season Cracking"? Follow the link and learn how the British found out about what was causing brass cartridges to crack. It was the outside environment. I do have a failure analysis book, and one failure analysis is of a brass (or bronze) boat propeller that lost a blade. It was all due to bird droppings and rain. There are a lot of chemicals in the ground, in the air, that are corrosive to brass, and if fired brass is left outside, in contact with the ground, filled with water, or in contact with deteriorating items outgassing complex chemicals, then the reloader runs the risk of case failure in one form or another.

I do wish to add something about the Government Owned Contractor Operated Ammunition plants. A bud of mine was a instrumentation and gauge specialist and he constantly went TDY to one ammunition plant. It was not Lake City, I will remember it if he mentions it again, and I will forget it again. These ammunition plants are run by contractors, and part of the agreement is, once the contractor fulfills his Government quota, the contractor can run the plant for its benefit. And that explains some of the new, primed, military 5.56 brass that Midway was selling during the Trump administration. I have all the 5.56 brass I can use, but a bud of mine purchased the stuff, and it was brand new, military primer, great stuff. It was off the same production lines, made to the same quality control standards as the issue brass. Headstamps were the same too. So, you will run across this, and you will run across loaded ammunition from these Army Ammunition Plants, in commercial boxes. Whomever is selling it has the current Ammunition Plant Contract.

But, once fired stuff, well, your post more or less proves, the storage of it is uncontrolled, and how it is stored, is of no concern to the military. There is no expectation that the brass is going to go anywhere but a melting ladle.

 

[Walkalong]

TZ 82 .308, bought as surplus, some was going, or started going bad after I bought it.

 

[Walkalong]

A rut check in .222 Mag, no worries here.


A rut starting in a .223 case. Range brass, IIRC.

 

[Walkalong]

.308 with not only a rut, but it has split on one side.

 

[Charlie98]

Your post, if I can remember it, will be valuable in discussing pull down brass.

I actually had 3 or 4 different posts over on the M14 Forum about it, I think some of the photos have disappeared, but I obviously still have them. Many of the people were pointing fingers at the rifle, others at my handloading... but I have given this a tremendous amount of thought, having your mag guts puke into your lap a few times will do that. I even had a case head blow out with the gas spindle valve off... meaning the action cycling did not occur to stress the brass at the rim, which was one of the considerations as well. I really believe the brass was contaminated after firing, setting in barrels somewhere. The WCC brass that developed cracks was likely just hard brass, not necessarily contaminated. And, odd man out, mixed in with all that, I had some PMJ (Korean) brass that is still in service, on their 3rd firings; I had one piece completely separate in the normal place above the web... and nothing else.

And remember... there is a difference in military brass source. True 'pull down' brass is brass that was loaded and was pulled apart for some reason. As you mention, the plants are free to pump out components and ammos for civilian sale once the current contracts are met. Personally, I think some of the ammo that hits the market is rejected ammo from military contracts, but sold on the commercial market because it still meets the much more loose SAAMI standards.

 

[milboltnut]

Not good, how much damage is the question now, but I tend to scrap any cases with any green.

No green anymore..... washed clean.