Which Mosin-Nagant to Buy? Milsurp or handload?

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Sam Adams

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I'm going to be getting my C&R pretty soon (depending on the ATF, of course), and I'm undecided about which of the Mosin-Nagants to get. The basic choices are, of course, the M91/30, the M38, the M44 and the Finn Mosins. The Russian ones are VERY cheap, but I wonder about quality (i.e. will they be able to shoot reasonably accurately, say within 3-4 MOA?). Are there any particular variants that you like?

I know that the Finns are of much higher quality, but the price reflects that reputation.

Please let me know what your experiences have been. Also, do you use the (extremely cheap) milsurp or do you handload for the 7.62R?
 
I just bought a Finnish Mosin, an M-39. I haven't received it yet, but I should get it by Friday. I just went with it because it is supposed to be the best one made and it's unissued. The guns on my list are Finnish M-39, a Swedish M-96, and a Swiss K-31. The Finnish one will be my first one. I think the old adage "you get what you pay for" is accurate in this case. I'd rather spend the extra 50-100 dollars for the higher quality. I'm a rookie at the whole C&R thing, though. There's a lot of people here that know much more than I do about it.
 
I'm also thinking about a Mauser, and I'm leaning heavily toward the M-96 as well. It is the best of the Mausers, and the 6.5x55 cartridge is extremely flat-shooting.

Regarding the K-31, my only qualms are with the cost of the surplus ammo. I know that the Swiss ammo is very high quality, but it ain't cheap.
 
10 rounds of what HBK?

GP11 (Swiss) runs about 0.35/round but 7.62x54 (fuel for the M/N ;) ) is only 0.08-0.10/round.

Shoot the surplus, at 0.08/round it (probably) isn't worth your time or trouble (unless you are using the time for a learning experience or relaxation in which case other factors come into play than strictly money).

Sam,

At the prices that the M/Ns are at right now (the Russian ones anyway), buy one of each & find out which you like best yourself :D . For me the 91/30 is easier on my body as it has a bit more weight, the M38 is easier to swing up for snap shot plinking, & the M44 is the most fun at the range (the BOOM & the good old boys asking "Whatchu doing wit dat pig sticker on there for boy?". All of them should shoot 3-4 MOA if you do your part.

Greg
 
http://www.aztecguns.com/index.htm $49.95 each for M44, M38, and 91/30, and Mosins is ALL they do, so they are nice, from what I have been told. I have an M38, and WHAT A BLAST! I am going to get one of each soon, and I reccomend anyone to do the same. There is plenty of new ammo out there - it's still in productionin Russia, too- and lots of cheap non-corrosive surplus, too.
If you can afford $173.85, that is all three rifles from Aztec plus shipping, all in excellent rearsenaled condition, with all accessories.....
 
armoredman

Thanks for the site - the company looks good, and I like the fact that it specializes in the MNs. I may pick up one of the "former sniper" models, since these seem to be a higher quality rifle.
 
I have two 91/30s, one M44, one M38, and three Finn M39s.
The Finn M39s are FAR superior to the Russian stuff. There really isn't any comparison. But, for the price of these things, buy them all. You can get everything you mentioned for less than the price of a modern bolt action rifle.

I am a big fan of the Schmit Rubin K31. I own two of them. In fact, I was shooting one today. They are definitely a superior rifle. I use the K31 in our local vintage bolt action rifle matches. I am usually one of the top three shooters (out of maybe 30) when using my K31.
I have several Sweede Mausers. Very nice quaility. Very accurate. But, they shoot very high at realistic ranges. The sights start at 300 meters and go up. Yes I know I could "fix" that, but I have no intention of changing anything on them.
I got a new jewel for my collection last week. A cherry 03A3. It might shoot better than all the other milsurps I have. I am getting consistant 2" groups with Danish surplus ammo and shooting off the rear fender of my pickup at 100 yards.

Russian milsurp ammo is blasting ammo. Marginal quality. Swiss milsurp ammo is superb - as good as you are going to get, even if you handload.



Yes, I handload for all of them.
 
444

"The Finn M39s are FAR superior to the Russian stuff. There really isn't any comparison."

Where did you get yours, and how much did you pay?

Same question for your '03.

"I have several Sweede Mausers. Very nice quaility. Very accurate. But, they shoot very high at realistic ranges. The sights start at 300 meters and go up."

Couldn't you "fix" that just by looking at ballistics tables and figuring out how high at, say, 100 yards a 6.5x55 FMJ round will be if zeroed at 300 yards, and adjust accordingly?

Where do you get your Swiss ammo?
 
To give you something a bit more concrete, I managed to shoot 3 MOA with a forty-sumtin' Izzy 91/30 for a postal match on another board. That was with the Czech silver tip light ball surplus ammo. More amazing still, my M44 managed to produce a group that would've been MOA or better--except for one lousy flyer. Honestly, I think the entire group was a fluke, but who knows. :D

Just shows that these are definitely capable of the accuracy you're looking for--maybe better with handloads. But I will join in recommending a K31 if you're looking for truly great accuracy--plus they're just a fantastic, interesting gun in general. Pretty much on the 'must have' list for a cruffler, I think. :)
 
I have a 1931 Izzy MN 91/30 and I picked it up on a whim for $80 at a Big 5 Sporting Goods store. With 205gr Russian milsurp, I have been getting 10" groups at 200 yards. Most of the infantry rifle ammo used by the Russians or Finns or whoever else used them, was around 150gr so I would think I could improve these groups with lighter bullets. From what I have found the 205gr stuff was MG ammo.

I have used primarily milsurp stuff that is berdan primed so the cases are not reloadable. Wolf has a couple of new rounds out in 7.62x54R that is non corrosive but still non-reloadable. Most of the milsurp (Russian, Czech, Albanian or other) is cheap so I didn't think too much about reloading. Our range has occasional 600yd military rifle shoots but the rules says milsurp or factory new ammo so I have never really thought about reloading for target or match use.
 
I am hitting standard clay targets at 200 yds with all of my Mosins. The 91/30 can hit the clay target at 250 on a regular basis before the coffee kicks in. Ammo is so cheap for the Mosin I don't bother to load for it. I tend to shoot whatever I have on hand for plinking. I shoot Wolf 200gr SP ammo for when it counts.

FWIW, The most I spent on any C&R rifle was $90 for a Hungarian M-44 Mosin that was in excellent shape.

ZM
 
None of this will be of any help to you

"Where did you get yours, and how much did you pay?"
I got all of them from a guy I work with. I don't remember exactly what I paid but none were more than $100.
A note on the M39. I knew my rifle (a VKT) was accurate, but I wanted to see just how accurate it was. So, I ordered a scope mount from Darryl and put a scout scope on it (this is a no-gunsmith scope mount that doesn't require you to damage the rifle to use it). My VKT shot five rounds that could be covered with a quarter at 100 yards. Unforunately when the barrel heats up, the rounds start to string vertically. I then took off the scope and reinstalled the issue sights. I have shot that VKT a lot with handloads. I have spent a lot of time playing around with very light handloads using cast bullets that make almost no noise at all.

"Same question for your '03"
Bought it from a local dealer last week for $400. I owned a couple of them about 15 years ago but foolishly sold them both (selling guns is stupid). Now they want real money for them. I hesitated to ever spend that much on an old milsurp but this one was really nice; flawless. And, I had just worked some serious overtime so I splurged. You can get them for the same price from the CMP.

"Couldn't you "fix" that just by looking at ballistics tables and figuring out how high ..............."
Sure. But, I just shot them to see where they hit. But, it is kind of a PITA to me to have to use "kentucky windage" ALL the time. I mean, I don't shoot at 300 yards and further all that often. These Vintage Military Bolt Action rifle matches usually have targets out to 400 meters, but most are closer. Contrast this with the K31 that has a 100 meter sight setting or the 03A3 that as actual adjustable sights.


Sorry I can't be of more help, but I don't have a C&R license. I just buy this stuff when the opportunity presents itself. Most of the stuff I own, I bought from a guy I work with that has a garage full of it. Then I also have a real good relationship with a local gun dealer. I have spent a LOT of money in his shop over the last five years or so. When I was really hot for these old milsurps he ordered me several of them for cost.
 
I got an M44 on impulse, in cruddy shape. Fixed her up, and now she's my favorite firearm.

I have a cheap BSA red dot on it (the stock sights were DESTROYED from rust) and it shoots very nice groups. Helluva lotta fun, with the blast.

Also, given the cheap Czech ammo, you can afford to shoot the piss out of it. The czech, from what I can see, is the best surplus 7.62x54r


YMMV
 
I've got one of the ex-sniper 91/30's on order from Aztec right now. All my best Mosins have had the Aztec stamp on them, and they have a good rep. I should have the rifle by the end of the week. I'm hoping it has a good bore and crown.

I personally find that the 91/30, while not as accurate as the M-39's, is much better balanced and nicer to carry. I really liked my M-39, but it was a barrel-heavy bugbear with a very thich stock, as most Finns tend to be. I've carried 91/30's over my shoulder for many miles while hiking and never had a problem. The very thin stock around the barrel can easily be gripped, and the whole thing balances nicely on the shoulder.

I have vast stockpiles of 7.62x54R, which has kept me from handloading. But from what I hear nearly all the Mosins will shoot better with hand-tooled handloads and bullets sized to the bore. Some of the Ruskie Mosins in particular have bores that are wider than the standard .311". A .303 bullet at .312" or even an Argie bullet at .313" might well close up the groups nicely.
 
Get an excellent condition Finn m-39. They are accurate and well made. Then put mojo aperature sights on it and by a spam can of hungarian "yellow tip" heavy ball 7.62x54R. The three combined are a formidable weapon system.

atek3
 
"A .303 bullet at .312" or even an Argie bullet at .313" might well close up the groups nicely."

I bought my first 91/30 for $49. It was dirty and covered with cosmoline but after I cleaned it up and put a few new coats of BLO to the stock, it looked pretty darn good. The problem was, it wouldn't shoot for crap. I tried milsurp ammo, Wolf, and handloads but I couldn't get it to hold a group at 25 yards. One day I was out in the desert and was shooting at a rock that I estimated to be about 500 yards. I would fire a shot and it would strike near the rock. The next shot might be 10 YARDS to the left, the next might be 10 YARDS to the right. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I finally punched in to the fact that this rifle was capable of any kind of accuracy at all. The bore was nice and clean, good sharp rifling was visible. So, I slugged the bore not once but three times. The bore measures .318" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously I would never be able to get this thing to shoot with standard ammo or bullets that are intended for this caliber. I was going to continue playing aorund to get something that was close to bore size but I figured, the heck with it. I bought another rifle instead. For the price of these things it isn't worth fighting it.
I bought an arsenal refinished 91/30 for $100 and it shoots OK. Nothing like the M39, but it isn't terrible. The bore is normal size. The complaint I have with this one is the finish they used on the metal. I think it is just black spray paint. I couldn't resist attaching the bayonet and all the finish came right off where the bayonet fits over the barrel.
IMO the 91/30 is a fun rifle to play with. They are certainly cheap enough that there was no way I wasn't going to get at least one. But the quality control is seriously lacking. That is understandable considering the conditions that they were made in.
 
IMO the 91/30 is a fun rifle to play with. They are certainly cheap enough that there was no way I wasn't going to get at least one. But the quality control is seriously lacking. That is understandable considering the conditions that they were made in.
Click to expand...

What you have to remember with 91/30's is they are, like AK-47's, a representation of the old Russian proverb "the best is the enemy of good enough." But don't confuse rough finish with inferior design or lack of quality. I'd place a 91/30 against any Mauser in wartime conditions. They are exceedingly tough rifles, with tolerances loose enought to survive the filthiest of conditions and receivers strong enough to last over a century of hard use (my 1968 M-39's receiver was made in 1894!)

I would not be too quick to dismiss them as mere "fun guns," as many American shooters have. It's true quite a few 91/30's have been re-bored so many times they approach 8mm. But I've also had a pre-war 91/30 that would hold solid 2" groups at 100 meters. The Soviets simply kept reviving these old war horses and were too cheap to put new barrels on them. The good thing is, they're cheap enough you can grab a batch and keep the best shooter. Or get a hand inspect for sharp crowns.
 
My problem in most of these on-line gun forum discussions is that I base my likes and dislikes on what I do with the rifle. I find it interesting to know how these rifles perform under actual combat conditons, but I am much more interested in how they perform under the conditions that I use them under. Having loose tolorances and grossly oversized bores may make a rifle more reliable under the worst combat conditons, but they are big negatives for my sporting uses.
Therefore, If I was choosing a MN type rifle for my uses, I would go with the Finn M39 because their quality control doesn't vary all over the board. The bore sizes are uniform and they are accurate.
This wouldn't keep me from buying a 91/30 also, but if I was limited to one rifle, I would go with one that I would be confident in.
 
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