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Which nipples for ROA?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Vermonter, Mar 8, 2011.

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  1. Vermonter

    Vermonter Member

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    Got two more cylinders for my ROA. Need nipples for them. What have folks had good luck with? Ruger? Treso? Something else? Do some nipples have a problem with dry firing? I know the clearance is pretty tight.

    Where to get them?

    Thanks for any help.
     
  2. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    I've installed Treso part number 11-50-12 and they have worked very well. Track of the Wolf sells them under their catalog number PRA-A. Treso nipples are available from a large number of sutlers such as Jedediah Starr, The Possible Shop, The Log Cabin Shop, October Country, etc. They are made by an outfit call House of Muskets. By the way, they are also known as Ampco nipples, after the brand name of the proprietary alloy they're made from.

    As far as dry firing, that's not recommended on any nipple, although the ampco metal is the most resilient and would take such abuse better than most.
     
  3. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Vermonter,
    mykeal is is spot on. Better and much more consistent geometry, smaller terminal flash hole to limit back blast and material that is very tough and won't rust.

    And like he said, never dry fire a percussion pistol with the cones installed.

    ~Mako
     
  4. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I like Treso's but I think I like these better.

    http://www.blomquistpercussionworks.com/default.asp

    They're made from A325 T3 stock and it doesn't get any better than that....
    You can also get them in hex heads, which a 3/26's nut driver fits perfectly.
     
  5. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Abitnutz,
    Are you talking about the ASTM A325 standard for fasteners?

    ~Mako
     
  6. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I believe so, I hope I didn't quote him wrong.
     
  7. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Abitnutz,
    No criticism, I was just asking. I'm sure that's what he meant.

    That is not a material, but it tells you is is a tough and good grade of steel. A good choice for a steel cone. I have never used one but I have tried quite a few others. Can you comment on the internal geometry? That is really one of the best things about the Treso cones.

    I'll post some graphics for Vermonter so he can see some of the reasons why mykeal and others will almost immediately recommend them.

    Regards,
    Mako
     
  8. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

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    Doesn't the ROA manual say it's safe to dry fire with the nipples in place?
     
  9. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I can post some pictures when I get home of the Blomquist and stock nipples.

    As for dry firing....I was told in no uncertain terms by David Clements not to dry fire the ROA. He's making the Bisley hammers and has done some work for me on my ROA.

    It pretty much boils down to "whatever he says...goes".
     
  10. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Vermonter,
    The standard cones on Ruger and other pistols as well as the majority of the after market cones are made from a steel alloy. They may be anything from simple carbon steel to a stainless alloy. As mykeal told you the Treso are made from high strength Bronze alloy (Aluminum Bronze). They buy it from Ampco as a "proprietary" alloy. I won't divulge what it is because that is a trade secret between Ampco and the House of Muskets.

    We do business with Ampco and one of the metallurgists there gave mine a good idea of what it is. We use an almost identical alloy from Ampco because of it's resistance to flow erosion in a very, very hot environment with aggressive gases.

    But the really cool differnce is the geometry. Below is a piicture of the exit holes on a Ruger cone and the corresponding Treso cone where you can see the larger OEM exit hole:

    FlashHoles1.gif

    This is a simple model of a Treso cone and a Uberti OEM cone:

    sidebysidecones2.gif

    These models were created from actual measurements.

    The company (either in Germany or Italy depending upon the year) who makes them for Uberti doesn't worry too much about the internal geometry, hence the double step from the drilling operation. I'm sure it isn't a critical feature to Uberti.

    However on the Treso cones the depth and diameter of the major bore diameter is very consistent. The diameter of the terminal hole (exit hole) is very consistent and the actual length is very consistent due to the depth of the major diameter being controlled.

    The Treso surface finish diameters and taper of the cones are very consistent from cone to cone. The edge breaks and internal chamfers are also very consistent.

    Treso recommends Remington #11 caps on their cones, but you will find many people swear by #10s. There are two reasons for this:
    • The shallow and very uniform (from cone to cone) taper.
    • The unique geometry of the newer Remington caps. The #10 and #11 caps have the same internal diameter, the fit is controlled by the length of the skirt.

    I don't believe I have ever heard of shooters using both #10 and #11 CCI caps on the Treso cones.

    The small exit feature on both modern cones attenuate the back blast from firing which helps limit, but doesn't stop the cap fracturing. The Treso cone was designed and then refined to directly address this.

    Do I like Treso cones? Yep, I am jealous, I wish it was my idea. Are there other good cones out there? Yes there are, and I'm sure some of the shooters here such as Abitnutz will give you their testimony. Isn't it great to live in America and have a choice?

    Regards,
    Mako
     
  11. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    Man don't expect my pictures to be that good. My wedding pictures weren't that high quality...
     
  12. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Ruger's statement about dry firing is based on the design - they are the one mass produced bp revolver that you can pretty much count on the hammer not impacting the nipple with no cap installed. However, it's a poor practice nevertheless. Shooting is a matter of good discipline - breath control, focus, precise movements, muscle memory and control, even awareness of heartbeats - and letting slip the discipline of not dry firing a bp revolver for one gun because you can plants a seed that allows it to slip on a different gun.

    Can you dry fire an ROA without damage? Yes, if it's a new one and you know it has OEM parts. Should you dry fire an ROA, even if those conditions are met? No.
     
  13. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    BTW, Bloomquist's nipples are top quality stuff. He'll custom make them for you at very reasonable prices. If I ever run out of Tresos, he'll be the first person I call.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    You're correct. What looks to be a relatively recent PDF copy of the Ruger Old Army manual shown below clearly states on page 17 that it's harmless to dry fire one.
    However an older printed copy of the ROA manual circa 1978 doesn't address the issue of dry firing at all.

     
  15. Vermonter

    Vermonter Member

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    Thanks for all the details!
     
  16. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    This picture may not be at all helpful as I apparently I could have cleaned them better. The brown/bronze stuff on the threads is anti-seize.

    Left one is the stock. Middle is the Blomquist with hex head. Right is a Treso. All are for the ROA.

    nipples1.jpg
     
  17. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Abitnutz,
    The picture is fine, it shows the Bloomquist and Treso cones have similar exit holes.

    If you haven't reinstalled them yet take another two pictures showing a side view and one showing an oblique from the top.

    Hey thanks a lot!

    Mako
     
  18. andrewstorm

    andrewstorm member

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    nipples

    treso nipps are good for shootin a clean gun,but clog up easy,ruger nipps keep your original spec,s and more flash for damp days in the deer blind,ss seems better than brass to me,if i ever switch I will try ss butler creek,as they look like stock ruger nips.:cool:
     
  19. makos_goods

    makos_goods Member

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    Andrew,
    Your report of the Treso cones clogging is actually very unique. Are you telling us that has been your experience? Yours is the first report I have ever heard of reporting the Treso cones "clogging" and I have heard many, many reports of them.

    Secondly you do not need "more flash," that is a marketing ploy used to sell cones by other manufacturers. Black powder is easy to ignite, much easier than smokless propellants.

    Third, you do not want the original "Specs" of the Ruger cones. The larger exit hole is not superior to the Treso and designs such as the Bloomquist cone. The design specifically gathers the initial charge and directs it down the flash hole via the enlarged primary hole and then it limits back blast back through the smaller exit hole. This is an advantage with revolvers because it attenuates the distortion and rupturing of the caps. There are now at least two pictures and a model of the difference on this thread alone about this feature.

    Fourth, the Treso cones are NOT brass they are an advanced alloy of Aluminum Bronze. Are you familiar with the mechanical properties of the Stainless Steel used by Butler Creek? Before you decide that SS is superior to the Ampco alloy you need to understand the limitations of Stainless Steel.

    It is not about how cool they look, it is about how well they work. Those that have used them will testify as to how well they do work. You should reconsider your reasons for preferring a less effective cone.

    Regards,
    Mako
     
  20. CharlesK80

    CharlesK80 Member

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    Another vote for Tresco nipps for the ROA. Remington #10 caps fit tight and stay on with 40 gr of 3F loads. >5 star rating! A best mod to the best BP revolver ever made.
     
  21. gl1200a

    gl1200a Member

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    I'm VERY happy with my Blomquist nipples on the ROA.

    Now for a shameless plug for Ron B.
    He's now making nipples for Pietta's with the same hex head as the
    nipples for the ROA.

    No more need for a nipple wrench when your 3/16ths nut driver works perfect.
    I have these installed on a 51 and 58 Pietta and their great.
     
  22. CharlesK80

    CharlesK80 Member

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    I think there are three criteria in the selection or replacement of BP nipples:

    1. Will your preselected caps generate sufficient flame through the nipple to ignite the BP charge?

    2. Will your preselected caps fit the nipple tightly with no cap fall-off, pre-ignition?

    3. Will your preselected cap remain on or close to the nipple, post-ignition?

    Basically, will it fire the gun and not cause a jam?

    I use Remington #10 caps. I do not want to change or be required to purchase and load different caps for different revolvers. I want to simplify. Same caps for all. Double strikes of the hammer should not be required.

    As to the third criteria, the ROA uses a flat surface hammer and I cannot remember a cap ever falling into the works using Tresco nipples.

    My Navy, Army and Dragoon "Colts" are a horse of a different color. I have silver soldered copper wire into the notched hammer face "safety slots" in an effort to prevent spent cap hammer lift-off. My next step will be Tresco nipps for those guns also. BTW, I tried J-B Weld epoxy first, but the OEM "colt" blew it away during the first cylinder full. I should have guessed.

    But as to the ROA, I am a Tresco convert.
     
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