Which powder for 40 S&W 165gr Xtreme?

[CrankyCraig]

Hello everyone, so I’m looking at my bench and I have a bunch of 165 grain Xtreme plated flat points.

I would like to work up a load for my VP40 for punching holes in paper from 7-10 yards on average.

I ‘ve got four powders in mind I usually seat those bullets @ 1.125”. I’m thinking of either 231,WSF, BE86 & CFE Pistol.

Anyone have a nice accurate paper punching load With these? I’m open to other powders and have bullseye, Tight group & Unique.

I have most of the current Manuals.
Any input appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[ray15]

Many go as fast as Clays for target 40 loads. I'd recommend the faster powders in your collection starting with Titegroup, which is pretty darn happy in this application. I chrono'ed 4.7-5.1 gr. with the xtreme 165HP at 1.135" and have been shooting 5.1gr. in my G22. If you run a ladder from 4.5-5.1gr. you'll probably find several charges that work rather well and have a bit of choice of velocity. BE86 and CFEP work best for me when pressed harder than needed for paper punching and the TG loads are unsurprisingly easier to shoot.

 

[Blue68f100]

WSF is my go to powder for all loads. Got my best accuracy at mid range with plated bullets.

If you looking for BE type loads, (mouse farts) you need to move to a faster powder. I'm not a fan of TG due to its high density, which does not fill the case. But other fast burning powders like BE, and WST work fine, with WST being my choice due to how clean it burns.

 

[Capt.Roll]

The only powder I've used is CFE-Pistol.

For the plated Xtreme and RMR 165 RNFP I generally load:

Mixed Brass
CCI No. 500 primer
6.8 grains CFE-P with +/- 0.1 variance goal
COL 1.130 +/- 0.005

Accuracy seems good to 25 yards and the recoil is very manageable. If you want more CFE specific load data, good thread here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/favorite-load-recipes-for-cfe-pistol.839446/

 

[LiveLife]

165 grain ... for punching holes in paper from 7-10 yards on average.

I ‘ve got four powders in mind ... 231, WSF, BE86 & CFE Pistol. Anyone have a nice accurate paper punching load With these? ... have bullseye, Tight group & Unique.

Since slower burning pistol powders burn more efficiently at high-to-near max load data, if you are looking for light 40S&W loads, you will likely produce more consistent chamber pressures (and greater accuracy) with faster burning than W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol powders.

Guns & Ammo did a nice article on "lite" 40S&W loads around 125-130 power factor you can reference for your load development - http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/


For accurate medium loads, I have had good results with BE-86, Power Pistol, WSF, Herco - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

165 grain Xtreme plated flat points @ 1.125”

Consider testing longer OAL for accuracy and more reliable feeding/chambering. Depending on the barrel/pistol/magazine, many use longer OAL from 1.150" to even 1.180" (Glock magazine limits OAL to 1.165") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-3#post-9639622

With TCFP bullets on this thread, longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" were tested and as shown by below shot groups, longer OAL of 1.142" produced greater accuracy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

And as shown in above shot groups, with RMR 180 gr RNFP bullets, I used even longer 1.155" OAL.

6.1 gr of Herco and 180 gr Missouri TCFP at 10 yards

 

[ray15]

I'm not a fan of TG due to its high density, which does not fill the case.

Titegroup works well in 38 special - it has no problem with the effective case volume presented by 40S&W. Single digit SDs are the rule, and accuracy is not hard to find.

 

[Ironicaintit]

ive made them with Unique and Bullseye, and like them both. couldn't tell much difference in accuracy, as both were great (I was the limiting factor)
Bullseye had less felt recoil, so doubletaps were ever so slightly quicker

 

[Walkalong]

Not a Titegroup fan either, but lots of folks love it. I have most of a pound that is getting lonesome. Hasn't seen the light of day in years.

 

[ray15]

Well, he's got Titegroup and it will do what he wants, and do it well. I've moved to Sport Pistol for some reduced-power auto pistol applications but in some cases it's proving hard to beat my TG loads. I'm not sure I'll phase it out entirely.

 

[CrankyCraig]

Since slower burning pistol powders burn more efficiently at high-to-near max load data, if you are looking for light 40S&W loads, you will likely produce more consistent chamber pressures (and greater accuracy) with faster burning than W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol powders.

Guns & Ammo did a nice article on "lite" 40S&W loads around 125-130 power factor you can reference for your load development - http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/


For accurate medium loads, I have had good results with BE-86, Power Pistol, WSF, Herco - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ts-and-discussions.778197/page-6#post-9924922

Consider testing longer OAL for accuracy and more reliable feeding/chambering. Depending on the barrel/pistol/magazine, many use longer OAL from 1.150" to even 1.180" (Glock magazine limits OAL to 1.165") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-3#post-9639622

With TCFP bullets, on this thread longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" were tested and as shown by below shot groups, longer OAL of 1.142" produced greater accuracy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9362819

And as shown in above shot groups, with RMR 180 gr RNFP bullets, I used even longer 1.155" OAL.

6.1 gr of Herco and 180 gr Missouri TCFP at 10 yards

Wow thanks for all that!

 

[CrankyCraig]

Well, he's got Titegroup and it will do what he wants, and do it well. I've moved to Sport Pistol for some reduced-power auto pistol applications but in some cases it's proving hard to beat my TG loads. I'm not sure I'll phase it out entirely.

I can’t find sport pistol locally yet but when I do I’ll pick up a pound.

 

[LiveLife]

I can’t find sport pistol locally yet but when I do I’ll pick up a pound.

For me, Bullseye and Titegroup have produced slightly more accurate loads than W231/HP-38 around 125-135 PF range for 9mm but for 40S&W, prefer slower burning W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol for less snappy recoil loads. Besides, Titegroup burns hot and violent and we have better powder options.

Many are considering Sport Pistol THE new N320 at lower cost.

For me, Sport Pistol has replaced W231/HP-38 as my reference powder as it meters better with less than .05 gr variance (.1 gr for W231/HP-38), more temperature stable and produces more accurate loads.

 

[ray15]

I can’t find sport pistol locally yet but when I do I’ll pick up a pound.

Titegroup is 40% nitroglycerin, where Sport Pistol is only 10%. So SP can burn cooler, but neither is problematic in my G22. Per the article bds linked you can go all the way down to 3.8gr. with TG, and 5.1 is a conservative max for your projectile. You could probably find a bunch of really accurate loads in there.

The burn rate is pretty close, with both working well from 900-1000fps with 165 plated for me (I didn't try slower). The SP charges were ~8-9% heavier for a given velocity.The nicest thing about Sport Pistol is the metering. Titegroup meters well - but SP meters nearly perfectly in volumetric powder measures. But as different as their compositions are, they end up working a lot alike in 40.

Here's what they are doing at 1000fps.

Xt 165HP @ 1.135"
5.4gr. Sport Pistol
CCI SPP/Federal
Number of Shots 6
Extreme Spread 16
Average 1005
Standard Deviation 5

Xt 165HP @ 1.135"
5.0gr. Titegroup
CCI SPP/Federal
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 26
Average 995
Standard Deviation 8

I've sandbagged them with iron sights and both are one ragged hole at 10 yards limited by my old eyes. Would need a scope to really prove one better.

 

[CrankyCraig]

For me, Bullseye and Titegroup have produced slightly more accurate loads than W231/HP-38 around 125-135 PF range for 9mm but for 40S&W, prefer slower burning W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol for less snappy recoil loads. Besides, Titegroup burns hot and violent and we have better powder options.

Many are considering Sport Pistol THE new N320 at lower cost.

For me, Sport Pistol has replaced W231/HP-38 as my reference powder as it meters better with less than .05 gr variance (.1 gr for W231/HP-38), more temperature stable and produces more accurate loads.

Great now I got another powder on the “must acquire list” May just have to break down and order some since I can’t find any on the shelf here.

 

[LiveLife]

Xtreme plated ... punching holes in paper from 7-10 yards ... have bullseye, Tight group & Unique.

You don't have to buy another powder just to load up some bullets you have. Unique will certainly work for 40S&W. You just need to load higher to improve accuracy. Recently I picked up another pound of Unique (aka flaming dirt) to use as reference powder for my 40S&W load testing.

BTW, I like cousin of flaming dirt Herco for 40S&W. Surprise to many, it is the cleanest burning powder for 40S&W I have used (And I have tested most powders from Bullseye/Red Dot/Promo to CFE Pistol/AutoComp/HS-6) as it will leave even the inside of cases clean!

Since you already have Bullseye, you can also certainly load "light" loads for 40S&W as Guns & Ammo did in their "lite" 40S&W article - http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/
DISCLAIMER: Do this at your own risk. Bullseye "downloads" well meaning you begin your powder "work down" at start charge and incrementally decrease your powder charge until slide won't reliably cycle.

FYI, I have used lead load data for plated bullets with good results and you can find 40S&W lead loads for Bullseye and Unique in 2004 Alliant load data (I would reference 180 gr lead load data for 165 gr X-Treme plated bullets) - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

While W231/HP-38 and Sport Pistol will produce workable light loads, recoil will progressively become more snappy as you increase powder charge. If you want higher than light start charge loads that are very accurate with less snappy recoil, it's hard to beat BE-86 which I consider the modern Unique that meters well.

 

[Walkalong]

Titegroup is 40% nitroglycerin,

One reason it didn't stick with me.

The only 165 Gr load I worked up that shot great was a 165 Gr Zero JHP and Universal Clays.

I prefer 180 Gr bullets at a leisurely 950/975ish FPS. W-231 and Silhouette can both produce very good groups at that velocity with a coated 180 Gr TrFP. Recoil impulse is totally different between the two.

 

[ray15]

I prefer 180 Gr bullets at a leisurely 950/975ish FPS. W-231 and Silhouette can both produce very good groups at that velocity with a coated 180 Gr TrFP. Recoil impulse is totally different between the two.

So can Titegroup My favorite 40 load to date is 4.7gr of TG with an Armscor 180gr. FMJ FN. 950fps and very accurate. 231 so close to TG in burn rate it's difficult to believe the feel is much different.

 

[rg1]

Do give WSF a test with 165 gr. plated or jacketed. Works great at 950-1050 fps or higher.

 

[Steve in NC]

I'll put in another vote for WSF as a go to powder for the 40 S&W. Have put several thoysand rounds down range with this combo.
Another plus is that WSF is a very good powder in 9mm to boot. I have not truely benched a load in 9mm to say it's a tick driver at 25 yds, but I used it at shorter distances for tac training and ragged hole drills and it shoots as compariable with any good factory loads so far.

Enjoy reloading!
Steve

 

[vaalpens]

I know this load is a bit light on the charge, but it performs very well for me with the P229. I think it meets your powder, bullet, COL and accuracy requirements. You should be able to go higher with the powder charge and find another accurate node. The following test was done at 15 yards using a rest.


40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.8gr, GINEXSP
Average: 874
ES: 33
SD: 13.8
Force: 280
PF: 144
Velocities: 894, 861, 861, 876, 879
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.64"
Test Date: 09/15/2017

 

[CrankyCraig]

Thanks you everyone for all the great responses very interesting ideas and options

I really enjoy this forum!

 

[CrankyCraig]

I know this load is a bit light on the charge, but it performs very well for me with the P229. I think it meets your powder, bullet, COL and accuracy requirements. You should be able to go higher with the powder charge and find another accurate node. The following test was done at 15 yards using a rest.

View attachment 800016
40SW, P229, 3.9"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 165gr, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.8gr, GINEXSP
Average: 874
ES: 33
SD: 13.8
Force: 280
PF: 144
Velocities: 894, 861, 861, 876, 879
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.64"
Test Date: 09/15/2017

This looks like a nice load to give a try!
Thanks for sharing!