Which steel does S&W use for their revolvers?

[rpenmanparker]

Good Lord at all the postulating. The difference is 1500psi. Pretty sure no space-age wonder-steel is required for that. And you guys might have a clue that MaxP and Denis actually talk to engineers at S&W.



It is when all you're trying to do is differentiate it from stainless.

CrMo steel is so much stronger than plain carbon steel that you need to be specific. The carbon steel you are referring to is more properly called high tensile steel, which is not as strong as CrMo. People who want to know what is being discussed need the right names to be used.

 

[CraigC]

You obviously did not read what I wrote. In this context, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

 

[MaxP]

CrMo steel is so much stronger than plain carbon steel that you need to be specific. The carbon steel you are referring to is more properly called high tensile steel, which is not as strong as CrMo. People who want to know what is being discussed need the right names to be used.

I was specific in saying that it is 4130. In the industry the differentiation is typically made only between carbon and stainless steel. It's essentially a slang term that the entire industry utilizes. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I was specific in saying that it is 4130. In the industry the differentiation is typically made only between carbon and stainless steel. It's essentially a slang term that the entire industry utilizes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well that makes no sense. In common usage carbon steel isn’t 4130. It makes no sense to call it that.

 

[DPris]

We COULD just call it Hard Steel & move on, without getting into a war over it.
Denis

 

[MaxP]

Well that makes no sense. In common usage carbon steel isn’t 4130. It makes no sense to call it that.

It makes perfect sense. Which steel can blued and which one cannot? It's actually that simple. It is used merely as a differentiation. When you order a barrel from a barrel maker you specify carbon or stainless. You're making way too much out of this. And Chromoly does contain carbon and a good amount of it or it wouldn't be able to be hardened. We're splitting fine frog hairs here. And on that note, I am outa here.

 

[rpenmanparker]

It makes perfect sense. Which steel can blued and which one cannot? It's actually that simple. It is used merely as a differentiation. When you order a barrel from a barrel maker you specify carbon or stainless. You're making way too much out of this. And Chromoly does contain carbon and a good amount of it or it wouldn't be able to be hardened. We're splitting fine frog hairs here. And on that note, I am outa here.

Whatever works for you. You are welcome to tell the barrel maker you want carbon steel. I will tell him I want something much better like 4130 or 4140. Of course they contain carbon also. I never said they didn't. They are just not what knowledgeable people know as carbon steel. Each to their own.

 

[CraigC]

Hate to burst our bubble but "carbon steel" is a VERY COMMON term used to differentiate from stainless. It's a generic term and you're acting like we're in metallurgy class.

This is another case of where someone knows just enough to get their tail in a crack.

And if you go to the friggin' S&W website, on the page for the model 36, or any other blued revolver, you'll find the material listed as "carbon steel". So let's dispense with this crap already.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-36-classics

 

[BobWright]

Many years ago I visited the S&W factory, and noticed all steel came in as lengths of rod, about 2 1/2" ~ 3" in diameter, and the only way stainless was identified was by the color painted on the end of the bar. This was for frames, barrels, and cylinders.

There were carts of forged frames wheeled about that gave off a lot of heat, and kept away from visitors, as they came from the furnaces.

The factory was really different from what I had expected. Only at the revolver benches did I see workmen fitting parts.

Bob Wright

 

[ThomasT]

NewMaybe S&W has finally realized that what passes for +P these days is much milder than some of the loads of the past.

You are correct. standard 38 special sold now is no more powerful than the weak 38 colt is was designed to replace. The +P moniker just makes you think you are getting hot loaded ammo. You are not. You are getting what 38 special was supposed to be all along. So any gun that could safely shoot original 38 special loads should be safe for +P ammo.

I will post this once again and hope that at least two people read it and understand what they have read.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

 

[rpenmanparker]

Hate to burst our bubble but "carbon steel" is a VERY COMMON term used to differentiate from stainless. It's a generic term and you're acting like we're in metallurgy class.

This is another case of where someone knows just enough to get their tail in a crack.

And if you go to the friggin' S&W website, on the page for the model 36, or any other blued revolver, you'll find the material listed as "carbon steel". So let's dispense with this crap already.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-36-classics

Well Craig, here is where I do my apology thing. Apparently steel nomenclature IN THE GUN WORLD is different from other places much like the accuracy-precision thing I railed on a few weeks ago. I will say I'm sorry to have contradicted you. The term carbon steel when talking about guns apparently means "not stainless" rather than true, simple carbon steel. In other steel-based industries and interest areas I am familiar with, that just isn't the case. Apparently bluing is so fundamental to the gun field that the most important distinguishing factor between steels is whether or not they need to be or can be blued. It isn't about strength in most discussions. So please forgive my tendency to extrapolate knowledge past its useful bounds.

 

[DPris]

Again- the "upgrade" from non to +P is largely heat treat & marketing, with probably more marketing than anything.

Not too hard to take a standard Smith revolver with what would normally be ".38 Special" & just create a new rollmark on the barrel to say ".38 Special +P".
Or to add the +P to a catalog or website.
Denis

 

[CraigC]

Well Craig, here is where I do my apology thing. Apparently steel nomenclature IN THE GUN WORLD is different from other places much like the accuracy-precision thing I railed on a few weeks ago. I will say I'm sorry to have contradicted you. The term carbon steel when talking about guns apparently means "not stainless" rather than true, simple carbon steel. In other steel-based industries and interest areas I am familiar with, that just isn't the case. Apparently bluing is so fundamental to the gun field that the most important distinguishing factor between steels is whether or not they need to be or can be blued. It isn't about strength in most discussions. So please forgive my tendency to extrapolate knowledge past its useful bounds.

I understand the need for precise language but it is entirely dependent upon context. In this context, a greater degree of precision is simply not necessary, nor even desired. If this was a knifemaking forum and we were discussing the properties of the many different blade steels, I'm sure there would be a greater need for more precise language. In this context, yes, blued or stainless is the only real distinction we care too much about. We let the folks who design and build the guns worry about what specific alloys to use. Personally, I really don't care. When I buy or build a gun, "carbon steel" or "stainless steel" is as far as it goes.

 

[Slamfire]

Apparently bluing is so fundamental to the gun field that the most important distinguishing factor between steels is whether or not they need to be or can be blued. It isn't about strength in most discussions. So please forgive my tendency to extrapolate knowledge past its useful bounds.

I talked to Steve Earle about this vintage action he makes.
http://www.steveearleproducts.com/fraser.html


It is made of 8620, which is a good steel, but not as tough as 4140. So I asked him why he used 8620. His customers want to color case harden these actions, make them look 19th century, and he said you can't color case harden 4140.

Bluing is traditional, but there are better rust preventing finishes. The blue on this pistol, and the case hardening colors, are very pleasing to the eye, but they are delicate.



I think the prettiest blueing I have seen are the pre WW2 Colt charcoal blues.

I got to talk to Lou of LRB and Springfield Armory, both make a civilian version of the M14 rifle receiver and both use 8620. In the 1960's, there were enough issues with 8620, Watertown Arsenal created a study about replacing 8620 with a better steel in the M14 but it came naught. I asked both makers why they had not used a better steel in their replica receivers, one with a higher fatigue life, and both said, the customer wants "mil spec".

Get on an AR web forum. Colt fan boys down grade the material choices of other vendors of AR15's, primarily because if it is not what is used in a Colt rifle, then to them, it is garbage.

There is no doubt that the criteria for firearm material selection has to take into account customer expectations, even if those expectations result in a selection of steel that is not the strongest, or has the longest fatigue life.

 

[CraigC]

Bluing is traditional, but there are better rust preventing finishes. The blue on this pistol, and the case hardening colors, are very pleasing to the eye, but they are delicate.

Depends on your definition of "delicate". I dont' consider them to be at all. The blue is charcoal or carbona blue and it is the most durable of the blued finishes. The case colors are clearcoated with lacquer and will typically outlast the bluing. No, it's not hard chromed and dishwasher safe but I wouldn't call it "delicate" either.

It is made of 8620, which is a good steel, but not as tough as 4140. So I asked him why he used 8620. His customers want to color case harden these actions, make them look 19th century, and he said you can't color case harden 4140.

You can't case harden 4140 but you can case color it.

Color cased 4140:

 

[danez71]

Hate to burst our bubble but "carbon steel" is a VERY COMMON term used to differentiate from stainless. It's a generic term and you're acting like we're in metallurgy class

True

It is when all you're trying to do is differentiate it from stainless.

While rpenmanparker's comments/replies to you were not necessarily in context to what you specifically said, they were appropriate in the context of the question in the OP.

Why do i say that...?
From the original post

Which steel does S&W use for their non-stainless steel revolvers?

The OP'er has already segrated SS out.

Noting that tidbit, the OP'er looking for more specific information in regards to which specific steel of the the generically termed carbon steels is used.

 

[Slamfire]

You can't case harden 4140 but you can case color it.

Color cased 4140:

I have seen those colors, and I don't know what creates them. I read that Ruger had to develop that process because the customer base wanted a vintage replica gun to look like a vintage gun. Original case harden colors were a result of introducing carbon to the surface of plain carbon steels, to make the surface harder.Beyond that, I don't know what creates the colors. I understand that manufacturer's paint a coating on top of the case colors, because the things will rub off. Case colors are delicate. From what I read, the early methods used bone, leather, heated everything up till the carbon came out. Wiki has a good article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case-hardening Seems the early processes were too slow, too much labor, and we lost the beautiful colors of the early guns. Trunbull https://www.turnbullrestoration.com/tag/color-case-hardening/ figured out the old processes and I was told by USFA he did the case hardening on their pistols. At least for a time. The material properties of those old plain carbon steels were improved by case hardening, and it created a durable wear surface. With the modern steels used in modern guns, those pretty colors are decorative. You can harden the surface, if you really need it, without getting those pretty colors, and it is done all the time. I had an automotive gear set in my hands, and it was obvious that some surface treatment had been done, but no pretty colors.

In a number of threads I have used the term "case hardening" when referring to a process that introduces carbon to the surface of steel, with the express purpose of hardening the surface, usually for wear hardness. A number of posters try to correct me, in weird ways, because they are only aware of case hardening in so far as the pretty colors on their guns.

Bluing is easy to scratch. Handling rubs it off, and the Cowboy action types pay to have revolvers that look worn!. Parkerization replaced bluing on military weapons. I have several pre WW1 German military rifles, sold to South America. The bluing is amazing for a military rifle. Parkerization is easy to apply and more durable. The British applied black paint, and you know, black paint works well and is easy to restore. Just get a spray paint can. There are all sorts of expensive finishes. I prefer brushed stainless, not a finish, it is a steel. It is hard to rust, and if you scratch it, just go over the surface with steel wool and buff it down with an abrasive.

 

[Jim Watson]

Brownells will cheerfully sell you the necessary equipment and supplies for true charcoal color case hardening. They warn to do it only on very mild steels or even wrought iron. Turnbull is undoubtedly doing some extra work to handle alloy steels.

Just to complicate your life, if you see a "colorful" period British gun, it will likely be what they call "cyanide mottling."

 

[CraigC]

Turnbull figured out how to apply true case colors through a pseudo-authentic process without actually hardening the part.

Parkerizing is not more durable. By itself it is actually less corrosion resistant than bluing. Its only advantage is that it holds oil.

Cyanide is high in carbon and was one of the chemicals originally used for color case hardening. The colors are distinctive and some shops still offer it.

 

[Monac]

I bought a book titled "Fighting Iron" by a man named Art Gogan some years ago to improve my understanding of the materials used in firearms:

https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Iro...&qid=1530346252&sr=1-1&keywords=fighting+iron

I think it did, but not to the point where I can parse the arguments being made here. For example, it is my understanding that ALL steel is an alloy of iron and carbon, with other alloys being optional. Therefore, to me, calling something "carbon steel" clarifies nothing, since stainless steel also contains carbon. It also contains chromium, and yet not everything called "chrome steel" is stainless. Then there are things I never heard of in my youth, like padlocks with hasps marked "Boron" (boron steel, apparently).

If there is a better book on the subject, that is still accessible to the layman, I would be glad to know about it.

I would also like to find a good basic book about plastics, a subject I find more confusing than steel by an order of magnitude or two.

 

[rpenmanparker]

I bought a book titled "Fighting Iron" by a man named Art Gogan some years ago to improve my understanding of the materials used in firearms:

https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Iro...&qid=1530346252&sr=1-1&keywords=fighting+iron

I think it did, but not to the point where I can parse the arguments being made here. For example, it is my understanding that ALL steel is an alloy of iron and carbon, with other alloys being optional. Therefore, to me, calling something "carbon steel" clarifies nothing, since stainless steel also contains carbon. It also contains chromium, and yet not everything called "chrome steel" is stainless. Then there are things I never heard of in my youth, like padlocks with hasps marked "Boron" (boron steel, apparently).

If there is a better book on the subject, that is still accessible to the layman, I would be glad to know about it.

I would also like to find a good basic book about plastics, a subject I find more confusing than steel by an order of magnitude or two.

Monac, I can help you with your questions about plastics. I am a plastics chemist, and spent many years working in that field. Just PM me with any questions you have. Also when I get a sense about what you need to know, perhaps I will be able to suggest a book that would be helpful.

As for the steel nomenclature issues I think I now understand that the terms used are 1) shorthand descriptions that are not always entirely complete or accurate and 2) are specific to a given interest area. So in bicycles the term "carbon steel" wouldn't ever be used One would either talk about high tensile strength steel (carbon steel without significant other alloying metals), chromium-molybdenum steel (carbon steel with effective amounts of chromium and manganese added), manganese-molybdenum steel (carbon steel with effective amounts of manganese and molybdenum added), or stainless steel of various kinds, all depending upon how strong and light the bike is desired to be. In gun talk I now understand that sufficient strength is assumed and the only property of interest is blued or stainless. So anything that can be blued is called carbon steel. The rest is stainless. I wouldn't have set it up that way, but nobody asked me. And I suppose it is effective for the purpose.

 

[Jim Watson]

In the old days, gun companies proudly advertised their materials. Not to where you knew the actual alloy, but they bragged.
Ordnance Steel
Savage High Pressure Smokeless Steel
Nickel Steel.

 

[CraigC]

Context is everything. You have to temper the use of technical jargon when it doesn't apply. In general conversation regarding firearms, there's no need to go beyond differentiating between blued and stainless. If we were discussing the properties of specific alloys, such as in barrel construction, it would be different but even then, we would be discussing specific alloys and "carbon steel" may still be used to differentiate from stainless. Most people know that 400-series steels are stainless. What many might not know is that 17-3 and 17-4 are stainless but tougher alloys than the 415 that Ruger uses for its frames. So "carbon" and "stainless" might still be used to make that distinction. If alloys are brought up in a revolver discussion, it's more often than not going to be in reference to Freedom Arms' 17-4 or the Carpenter Custom 465 Ruger uses in their .454 and .480 cylinders.

No, "stainless" is any steel with 10.5% or greater chromium content. Stainless can indeed be blued and color case hardened so that is not really the way to distinguish it.

For all of those who are arguing that "carbon steel" is not the proper way to distinguish between steel and stainless steel, I don't see any suggestions.

 

[rpenmanparker]

...For all of those who are arguing that "carbon steel" is not the proper way to distinguish between steel and stainless steel, I don't see any suggestions.

Craig, you know that isn't true. I was quite clear that I thought the non-stainless varieties should be specified as chrome-molybdenum or 4130 or 4140 rather than just calling them carbon steel, which to me means high tensile strength steel (Hi-Ten). But honestly I can let it go, now understanding what is meant when gun folks say carbon steel.

 

[CraigC]

But "chromoly" doesn't cover all steels, as you pointed out. "Carbon steel" does. ALL steel has carbon in it so it's a little silly to argue your point about chromoly.

Further, the initial comment that started it all specified 4130. So all this crap about carbon vs chromoly vs whatever was completely unnecessary. The whole argument is just dumb and completely tangent from the OP.

IMHO, this is a case where someone knows just enough to get an argument started.