cracked butt
Member
I'll have to give that a try or tinker with it a little more. I've tried removing the rings but they always seem to align in the same position.
Which turret kit should I get from Cabelas?
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I'll have to give that a try or tinker with it a little more. I've tried removing the rings but they always seem to align in the same position.
racerrck
Member
Ive got to agree with testar spend the cash and get a dillon mines ten years old and have never had to align, tinker, drill or anything but dust and lube it it's always worked from day one like saying goesyou pay now or you pay later Dillon is bullet proof and if your house falls on it they'll replace it
cracked butt
Member
They are what? 4 or 5x the price of a Lee for the cheapest model? Can you load rifle ammo on them other than possibly .223? How much does a Dillon that is capable of loading magnum rifle cartridges cost? Can you switch the cartridge you are reloading for over in about a minutes time?
Cabelas
If I were you I would buy the press online. That's what I did. I'm 22 and the sales people in Cabelas Dundee have been very rude to me several times, I'm assuming because I'm young.
I have no loyalty to them whatsoever.
I buy all my reloading stuff from midsouthshooterssupply.com and natchezss.com
You will save considerable amounts of money buying stuff from these places, keep your money where you can.
If I were you I would buy the press online. That's what I did. I'm 22 and the sales people in Cabelas Dundee have been very rude to me several times, I'm assuming because I'm young.
I have no loyalty to them whatsoever.
I buy all my reloading stuff from midsouthshooterssupply.com and natchezss.com
You will save considerable amounts of money buying stuff from these places, keep your money where you can.
benedict1
Member
Best deal on the Classic Turret Press is still at
http://www.kempfgunshop.com/products/reloading/leeprecision/kits/KempfKit.html
http://www.kempfgunshop.com/products/reloading/leeprecision/kits/KempfKit.html
well, now that we've thoroughly hijacked this thread, I gotta say....
Totally agree about the primer system. I got started in reloading, 30+ years ago, with a Lyman Spar-T press (fore-runner of the T-magII). The priming system on that one actually worked fine. The present design is a step backwards. :banghead: As I said above, I gave up on it entirely and went to a hand-priming system (RCBS or Lee Autoprime), which has worked very well and is trouble-free. Much better feel for seating primers than the upstroke on the T-Mag, very fast, and the closest thing to mindless that you can do in the area of reloading.
As for changing turrets, what you do is turn the turret until you can poke the handle in between dies into the bolt in the center. No big deal. Then turn the turret along with the bolt until it lostens up enough to remove by hand. Reverse the procedure for mounting the new turret.
Returning somewhat toward the original thrust of the thread, (T-Max vs. Lee Classic vs. whatever): Both of them will get the job done. Both have their quirks. The T-max is more solid-looking, but the Lee (with Pro Auto Disk powder measure) is a heck of a lot faster (2x faster -- at least for me).
Comparing powder measures, btw, the Lyman #55 (comes with the T-mag kit) is accurate and reproducible, once set up properly, but can get out of adjustment during a run if not tightened down thoroughly. That's why I feel compelled to check the throw weight every 10 - 15 rds or so on a scale. Additionally, it is rather hard to adjust to a precise amount (i.e. no micrometer dial, lots of backlash). Once set and dogged down, it's very accurate and precise. (note that my experience is with pistol powders such as Unique, Win-321, etc. I weigh individual charges with rifle cartridges so no experience with extruded powders in the #55.)
The Lee Autodisk, OTOH, is very simple. You pick a certain volume cavity and that's it. Nothing to get out of adjustment. The only variability comes from how well the cavity is filled and shaken down. So I don't have to measure every few rounds. (I did so, but found that there's no point.) The downside is that there are only discreet cavity volumes available, and they may or may not correspond to the exact weight you want. But you can probably find one that is close enough. If not, there's a variable-cavity attachment you can buy which does have micrometer adjustments. (I have one, < $10, but I have not tried it yet.)
Bottom line, as I said above: had I gotten the Lee Classic first, I would probably not have gotten the T-Mag. I would not have needed it.
Albert
rmurfster said:
Totally agree about the primer system. I got started in reloading, 30+ years ago, with a Lyman Spar-T press (fore-runner of the T-magII). The priming system on that one actually worked fine. The present design is a step backwards. :banghead: As I said above, I gave up on it entirely and went to a hand-priming system (RCBS or Lee Autoprime), which has worked very well and is trouble-free. Much better feel for seating primers than the upstroke on the T-Mag, very fast, and the closest thing to mindless that you can do in the area of reloading.
As for changing turrets, what you do is turn the turret until you can poke the handle in between dies into the bolt in the center. No big deal. Then turn the turret along with the bolt until it lostens up enough to remove by hand. Reverse the procedure for mounting the new turret.
Returning somewhat toward the original thrust of the thread, (T-Max vs. Lee Classic vs. whatever): Both of them will get the job done. Both have their quirks. The T-max is more solid-looking, but the Lee (with Pro Auto Disk powder measure) is a heck of a lot faster (2x faster -- at least for me).
Comparing powder measures, btw, the Lyman #55 (comes with the T-mag kit) is accurate and reproducible, once set up properly, but can get out of adjustment during a run if not tightened down thoroughly. That's why I feel compelled to check the throw weight every 10 - 15 rds or so on a scale. Additionally, it is rather hard to adjust to a precise amount (i.e. no micrometer dial, lots of backlash). Once set and dogged down, it's very accurate and precise. (note that my experience is with pistol powders such as Unique, Win-321, etc. I weigh individual charges with rifle cartridges so no experience with extruded powders in the #55.)
The Lee Autodisk, OTOH, is very simple. You pick a certain volume cavity and that's it. Nothing to get out of adjustment. The only variability comes from how well the cavity is filled and shaken down. So I don't have to measure every few rounds. (I did so, but found that there's no point.) The downside is that there are only discreet cavity volumes available, and they may or may not correspond to the exact weight you want. But you can probably find one that is close enough. If not, there's a variable-cavity attachment you can buy which does have micrometer adjustments. (I have one, < $10, but I have not tried it yet.)
Bottom line, as I said above: had I gotten the Lee Classic first, I would probably not have gotten the T-Mag. I would not have needed it.
Albert
RustyFN
Member
Albert, if you would really like to get the in between weights with the auto disk buy the charge bar. It is only around $10 and works great as loang as you aren't trying to throw light charges. I had problems trying to throw under 3 grains of Titegroup and heard of problems with under 4 grains of Unique.
Rusty
Rusty
Dillon
I have a Dillon 550b and have loaded over 10,000 rounds with no problems.
Nothing has worn out or broke. Yea it cost more and you have to index but it is reliable and very very very easy to change caliber. I can load riffle on it to.
I have a Dillon 550b and have loaded over 10,000 rounds with no problems.
Nothing has worn out or broke. Yea it cost more and you have to index but it is reliable and very very very easy to change caliber. I can load riffle on it to.
cheygriz
member
If you really want a turret
1 Redding (quality doesn't cost, it pays!
)
2 Lyman
3. RCBS
4
5
6
7
8
9 lee
Better yet, get a Dillon 650
1 Redding (quality doesn't cost, it pays!
)2 Lyman
3. RCBS
4
5
6
7
8
9 lee
Better yet, get a Dillon 650
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
Member
"If you really want a turret
1 Redding (quality doesn't cost, it pays! )
2 Lyman
3. RCBS
4
5
6
7
8
9 lee"
Some reality:
The Redding, Lyman and RCBS are outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweights. I had the Lyman and have used the other two. Run out is mediiocre on all three and was particularly bad on the Lyman T-mag I owned. Wish I'd never wasted the money I spent on it. Sold it and was glad to get rid of it. These miserable presses are so slow reloading its like loading on a single stage press. 50 rounds an hour is tops.
I own the Lee now. It's so far ahead of the other three it's in a whole new category. Runout is excellent and the press design is extremely strong for it's size (It doesn't take up massive amounts of space on your bench, as it's more vertical than horizontal, unlike the Redding, RCBS and Lyman.).
Here's a review of the Lee that compares it to the old style turret presses:
http://www.realguns.com/archives/122.htm
You can say the Redding has a "stop" on the back to prevent tilt, but there's still some tilt and that tilt leads to mediocre runout numbers vs. a single stage. The Lee turret rises evenly and has a stop all the way around to create an extremely solid "O-frame" effect and thereby causes runout to be as good as any single stage out there. Finally instead of producing 50 rounds per hour, you can produce 200. Instead of taking ten minutes and spending hundreds of dollars for extra turrets, you can spend less than a minute and pay ten bucks a turret. So 6 rifle calibers set up costs you 60 bucks instead of a hundred plus and the turrets automatically rotate. And you get case activated powder drop. And a priming system that fast and works.
Does it need a little adjustment? Yes, but so does any machine with more automated features. Is the Dillon 550 a better machine? Yes, but with it's high price tag, you could buy a Hornady Lock N Load, a machine that's superior to the Dillon 550 and 650:
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
But unless you genuinely need the production of a progressive, the Lee Classic Turret is a wonderful press, a great compromise between price, production, function (rifle and pistol) and durability. It's just about perfect for the average reloader. I own one and if it had been available back when I bought my Hornady Lock N Load, I probably would not have needed the Hornady, because 200 rounds per hour is more than what the average reloader needs out of a press. It's fast enough to not be irritating and like a single stage, you can see every little thing that's happening.
Regards,
Dave
1 Redding (quality doesn't cost, it pays! )
2 Lyman
3. RCBS
4
5
6
7
8
9 lee"
Some reality:
The Redding, Lyman and RCBS are outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweights. I had the Lyman and have used the other two. Run out is mediiocre on all three and was particularly bad on the Lyman T-mag I owned. Wish I'd never wasted the money I spent on it. Sold it and was glad to get rid of it. These miserable presses are so slow reloading its like loading on a single stage press. 50 rounds an hour is tops.
I own the Lee now. It's so far ahead of the other three it's in a whole new category. Runout is excellent and the press design is extremely strong for it's size (It doesn't take up massive amounts of space on your bench, as it's more vertical than horizontal, unlike the Redding, RCBS and Lyman.).
Here's a review of the Lee that compares it to the old style turret presses:
http://www.realguns.com/archives/122.htm
You can say the Redding has a "stop" on the back to prevent tilt, but there's still some tilt and that tilt leads to mediocre runout numbers vs. a single stage. The Lee turret rises evenly and has a stop all the way around to create an extremely solid "O-frame" effect and thereby causes runout to be as good as any single stage out there. Finally instead of producing 50 rounds per hour, you can produce 200. Instead of taking ten minutes and spending hundreds of dollars for extra turrets, you can spend less than a minute and pay ten bucks a turret. So 6 rifle calibers set up costs you 60 bucks instead of a hundred plus and the turrets automatically rotate. And you get case activated powder drop. And a priming system that fast and works.
Does it need a little adjustment? Yes, but so does any machine with more automated features. Is the Dillon 550 a better machine? Yes, but with it's high price tag, you could buy a Hornady Lock N Load, a machine that's superior to the Dillon 550 and 650:
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
But unless you genuinely need the production of a progressive, the Lee Classic Turret is a wonderful press, a great compromise between price, production, function (rifle and pistol) and durability. It's just about perfect for the average reloader. I own one and if it had been available back when I bought my Hornady Lock N Load, I probably would not have needed the Hornady, because 200 rounds per hour is more than what the average reloader needs out of a press. It's fast enough to not be irritating and like a single stage, you can see every little thing that's happening.
Regards,
Dave
benedict1
Member
This isn't even clever. Totally misguiding. Dave has answered it well; hundreds of other users would agree.
Dave, and Benedict,
I realize you guys love your Lee's and it's obvious, good for you both. Glad to see your "brand loyal" and happy with your equipment.
I know most of the time it is in good fun, or jabbing from one brand to another, but, it seems kinda rude (to some) and somewhat opinionated to state that a tried & true press design like the turret press is an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight";
That's just opinionated garbage, and "way far" from the truth.
First off Dave, (I said it before) the only difference between the turret press, and the single stage, is that your saving the time it takes to change out the die, or in another note, to change out the turret..... a no brainer.
Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period.
If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive. A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
Seeing as the Lee has a "turret-like design" (more like a rounded toolhead), is it proper to compare it to the "non-progressive" manual turret type press that has no automated movements, or should you compare it to the press it more closely resembles.....the Dillon, or the Hornady progressives ?
It wouldn't stand a chance in comparison to either, even at less than half the cost.
I've been into the casting & handloading game in a "big way" since I was 11 yrs. old. I'm now 50 (retired), and more involved than I've ever been, so, it's been awhile.
I've had a chance to use all the brands of equipment mentioned here, including Lee Precision. I have my own personal preferences, as do all, but personally, very few of them are Lee Precision items. Not because I have anything against them "at all", they have their niche, and I've actually given them every possible consideration regarding their possible usage. But they just didn't hold up very well for me for what, and how much I do.
They are, and have been advertised as a tool for the "budget minded" reloader for many years.
I remember Richard Lee using this marketing concept when he started the company many moons ago......
The word "budget" has been swept under the rug in recent years maybe, but not necessarily the premise. It's still a good idea, and like I said, it has it's niche.
But, to honestly compare the Lee equipment to Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Dillon or Hornady stuff by badmouthing it is way off, and foolhardy.
I think Lee has some great ideas.......honestly. The problem seems that these ideas are always fraught with minor glitchy issues for most.
Most of the complaints regarding their equipment is,
that it needs to be tinkered with constantly to keep it in working order.....and this complaint is constant if you read the threads on many forums, including, but not limited to, this one.
The Lee Precision presses would never stand up to the reloading, swaging and case forming processes that I do.
I've personally owned Lee's, Lyman's, RCBS', one Redding, and 3 Dillon's (which I still own).
Admittedly, I've never had a Hornady. I still have a Lyman Orange Crusher, T-Mag, 2 Dillon 550's, and a Dillon SDB. Eventually, the 2 Lyman's will be replaced with Redding's. Nothing wrong with the Lyman's really, but the Redding designs are both stronger on the single stage press(UltraMag) due to it's linkage points, and the T7 is both stronger, a larger (more 7 station) turret, and a little better design than the T-Mag.
Regarding the current Lee Presses, the only one that "might" hold up for me is the Lee Classic single stage which is reportedly cast iron. The press' linkage is more in question in all cases more often.
By the way, because it is a single stage, and probably the oldest design across all brands, is it an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight" because it's a Lee ?
....or are we talking strictly a traditional turret ?
As far as runout, (and I've mentioned this in another thread), most turret presses are designed to square with the ram when it is fully extended under pressure. The alignment variance is minimal if any, and would not affect accuracy by factory spec's.
Dave, I think you had mentioned somewhere on the board about using Lee dies with the "rubber O Ring" for the mere fact that it allows the die to orient itself with the ram if there is any misalignment anywhere ?
I respect your thought process regarding such, but if you were that worried about runout, why would you even consider that concept about the O Ring locking nut, or movement of the die to correct an out of alignment issue ?
Benedict.......
No, it isn't clever, or witty, or fashionable.......it's just plain, everyday common sense........"you get what you pay for"......bottom line, even if it's in just plain durability.
I realize this as do many millons of others.......
Like I said earlier......Lee has some good design idea's, but those design idea's alone, without the strength and durability to make it last, or the quirkiness of the machine to have to tinker with it all the time to keep it running......it just sounds frustrating to me.......
......and that's me.....but I still respect another's choice.
I don't try to badmouth someone's decision, and if asked, many times I'll weigh differing factors (i.e., planned usage, budget, experience, etc.), and recommend accordingly based on a lengthy experience curve.
There's been a couple of times that I've honestly recommended Lee's stuff, and I'm honest to a fault regarding my experiences with them.
"Misguided"........is trying to state that the Lee press is better than all the other brands mentioned.....it might have some good points, a few pros & cons, but it isn't better by a long shot....hence the price.....(again, you get what you pay for)
.........hundreds of other "brand loyal, pro Lee users" would agree, yes.
I've always heard regarding Lee's presses/equipment, that you "either loved them or hated them, no middle ground"........and to think that I kinda thought myself to be in the middle somewhat.
FWIW.................
Bob
I realize you guys love your Lee's and it's obvious, good for you both. Glad to see your "brand loyal" and happy with your equipment.
I know most of the time it is in good fun, or jabbing from one brand to another, but, it seems kinda rude (to some) and somewhat opinionated to state that a tried & true press design like the turret press is an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight";
That's just opinionated garbage, and "way far" from the truth.
First off Dave, (I said it before) the only difference between the turret press, and the single stage, is that your saving the time it takes to change out the die, or in another note, to change out the turret..... a no brainer.
Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period.
If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive. A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
Seeing as the Lee has a "turret-like design" (more like a rounded toolhead), is it proper to compare it to the "non-progressive" manual turret type press that has no automated movements, or should you compare it to the press it more closely resembles.....the Dillon, or the Hornady progressives ?
It wouldn't stand a chance in comparison to either, even at less than half the cost.
I've been into the casting & handloading game in a "big way" since I was 11 yrs. old. I'm now 50 (retired), and more involved than I've ever been, so, it's been awhile.
I've had a chance to use all the brands of equipment mentioned here, including Lee Precision. I have my own personal preferences, as do all, but personally, very few of them are Lee Precision items. Not because I have anything against them "at all", they have their niche, and I've actually given them every possible consideration regarding their possible usage. But they just didn't hold up very well for me for what, and how much I do.
They are, and have been advertised as a tool for the "budget minded" reloader for many years.
I remember Richard Lee using this marketing concept when he started the company many moons ago......
The word "budget" has been swept under the rug in recent years maybe, but not necessarily the premise. It's still a good idea, and like I said, it has it's niche.
But, to honestly compare the Lee equipment to Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Dillon or Hornady stuff by badmouthing it is way off, and foolhardy.
I think Lee has some great ideas.......honestly. The problem seems that these ideas are always fraught with minor glitchy issues for most.
Most of the complaints regarding their equipment is,
that it needs to be tinkered with constantly to keep it in working order.....and this complaint is constant if you read the threads on many forums, including, but not limited to, this one.
The Lee Precision presses would never stand up to the reloading, swaging and case forming processes that I do.
I've personally owned Lee's, Lyman's, RCBS', one Redding, and 3 Dillon's (which I still own).
Admittedly, I've never had a Hornady. I still have a Lyman Orange Crusher, T-Mag, 2 Dillon 550's, and a Dillon SDB. Eventually, the 2 Lyman's will be replaced with Redding's. Nothing wrong with the Lyman's really, but the Redding designs are both stronger on the single stage press(UltraMag) due to it's linkage points, and the T7 is both stronger, a larger (more 7 station) turret, and a little better design than the T-Mag.
Regarding the current Lee Presses, the only one that "might" hold up for me is the Lee Classic single stage which is reportedly cast iron. The press' linkage is more in question in all cases more often.
By the way, because it is a single stage, and probably the oldest design across all brands, is it an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight" because it's a Lee ?
....or are we talking strictly a traditional turret ?
As far as runout, (and I've mentioned this in another thread), most turret presses are designed to square with the ram when it is fully extended under pressure. The alignment variance is minimal if any, and would not affect accuracy by factory spec's.
Dave, I think you had mentioned somewhere on the board about using Lee dies with the "rubber O Ring" for the mere fact that it allows the die to orient itself with the ram if there is any misalignment anywhere ?
I respect your thought process regarding such, but if you were that worried about runout, why would you even consider that concept about the O Ring locking nut, or movement of the die to correct an out of alignment issue ?
Benedict.......
No, it isn't clever, or witty, or fashionable.......it's just plain, everyday common sense........"you get what you pay for"......bottom line, even if it's in just plain durability.
I realize this as do many millons of others.......
Like I said earlier......Lee has some good design idea's, but those design idea's alone, without the strength and durability to make it last, or the quirkiness of the machine to have to tinker with it all the time to keep it running......it just sounds frustrating to me.......
......and that's me.....but I still respect another's choice.
I don't try to badmouth someone's decision, and if asked, many times I'll weigh differing factors (i.e., planned usage, budget, experience, etc.), and recommend accordingly based on a lengthy experience curve.
There's been a couple of times that I've honestly recommended Lee's stuff, and I'm honest to a fault regarding my experiences with them.
"Misguided"........is trying to state that the Lee press is better than all the other brands mentioned.....it might have some good points, a few pros & cons, but it isn't better by a long shot....hence the price.....(again, you get what you pay for)
.........hundreds of other "brand loyal, pro Lee users" would agree, yes.
I've always heard regarding Lee's presses/equipment, that you "either loved them or hated them, no middle ground"........and to think that I kinda thought myself to be in the middle somewhat.
FWIW.................
Bob
Last edited:
cracked butt
Member
The problem with that, is that most dies are going to crimp when full pressure is placed on the turret, if you are seating without crimping, will there still be enough pressure to make everything square with the heavy duty presses?
What might be an interesting experiment, though it might be hard to pull off due to the time frame needed to run the experiment.
1: Have a sample of reloaders use 10 pieces of new brass of 'X' brand name.
2: Use the same die set on each machine- perhaps use a set of dies, then mail them to the next person etc...or alternatively every one use their own die set and locking rings of their choice.
3:Use the same bullets- Sierra match kings would be a good choice for consistancy and availability.
4.Each reloader mails the resized cases with bullets seated to a 3rd party. (no need for actual loaded ammunition) The reloader can be identified with a letter or number with the machine used for reloading unknown to the 3rd party, they would send their identifier and machine type to a 2nd 3rd party.
5. The 3rd party (would need to be someone with a guage to measure runout) measures the cases and posts the results online once all of the results are tabulated.
6. The 2nd 3rd party posts the identities of the brand and type of press used.
cracked,
Usually, just the resistance of seating the bullet alone, will bottom the turret on the backstop.
Most turrets have a "wave washer" or resistance spring to return them to a neutral position so they'll rotate freely.
Testing one press against another might be fraught with complications regarding the type of dies used, etc., but all else being equal, it would be interesting as far as "out of roundness" is concerned.
Bob
Usually, just the resistance of seating the bullet alone, will bottom the turret on the backstop.
Most turrets have a "wave washer" or resistance spring to return them to a neutral position so they'll rotate freely.
Testing one press against another might be fraught with complications regarding the type of dies used, etc., but all else being equal, it would be interesting as far as "out of roundness" is concerned.
Bob
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
Member
I realize you guys love your Lee's and it's obvious, good for you both. Glad to see your "brand loyal" and happy with your equipment.
Has nothing to do with brand loyalty. If the old style turrets were better in any way, I'd say so, but they aren't. I'm not a brand loyal type. I take the engineering and "value for cost" approach. If it costs a lot and doesn't give much, I'm not impressed. If it's reasonably costs and provides a lot, I like it. I like the Lee, it's reasonably priced and provides a heckuva lot for that price.
I know most of the time it is in good fun, or jabbing from one brand to another, but, it seems kinda rude (to some) and somewhat opinionated to state that a tried & true press design like the turret press is an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight";
That's just opinionated garbage, and "way far" from the truth."
No, it isn't way far from the truth. I actually tried the Lyman, RCBS and the Redding, then tried the Lee. If it wasn't actually better engineered and didn't actually obselete them, I wouldn't say so, but it does. They have a ton of cast iron on them, they're tough, they'll last a long time, but so will the Lee and it lots better quality ammo 4 times as fast for less money. That made the one I owned a paperweight, but I sure ain't bothering to load on the thing when I have the Lee.
First off Dave, (I said it before) the only difference between the turret press, and the single stage, is that your saving the time it takes to change out the die, or in another note, to change out the turret..... a no brainer. Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period. If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive. A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
Seeing as the Lee has a "turret-like design" (more like a rounded toolhead), is it proper to compare it to the "non-progressive" manual turret type press that has no automated movements, or should you compare it to the press it more closely resembles.....the Dillon, or the Hornady progressives ?
It wouldn't stand a chance in comparison to either, even at less than half the cost.
1. First, Lee chose to define itand advertise it as a turret press, just like Dillon defined the AT500 as a turret press. In that they did this and priced it competitively in the market place against turret presses, not progressives. Therefore, anything in that price range is what it competes against and that's what the original poster was comparing it to. Hence, I answered his question, which was a better buy. The Lee is. Complaining that it "ain't a fair comparison" is like complaining the Model T wasn't fair to the horse and buggy.
2. As far as progressives go, it is about the same speed rounds per hour count as a Dillon 450, which produces about 200 production rounds per hours, according to my buddy who owns one. So, yes, it compares favorably against and is actually more versatile (It accepts standard dies, which my buddy's 450 doesn't.) than a "progressive" in it's price range.
Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period.
If you wanna believe that, go ahead. The Lee still smokes the old style turrets.
If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive.
It indexes the turret, moving the dies, not the cases. Therefore, it's a turret press, not a "progressive." Trying to redefine what it is still doesn't change the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs Lee, thereby making it a better value.
A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
The AT500 Turret, which is what Dillon called the 550 with all the accesories removed, was defined as a turret press. While I agree the 550 is a semi progressive, I would define all current progressives that don't have a bullet and case feed semi progressives. But I don't name them, the manufacturer does and Dillon calls the 550 a progressive and Lee calls the Lee Classic Turret a turret. So that's the markets the compete in. And attempting to redefine things to make things "more fair" still doesn't change the fact the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs less than they do. Thereby making it a better value for the money.
"I've been into the casting & handloading game in a "big way" since I was 11 yrs. old. I'm now 50 (retired), and more involved than I've ever been, so, it's been awhile."
Nice to be retired.
I've had a chance to use all the brands of equipment mentioned here, including Lee Precision. I have my own personal preferences, as do all, but personally, very few of them are Lee Precision items. Not because I have anything against them "at all", they have their niche, and I've actually given them every possible consideration regarding their possible usage. But they just didn't hold up very well for me for what, and how much I do.
Souns like you haven't tried anything in the Classic series. I replaced my RCBS Rock Chucker with a Lee Classic Cast single stage and the Lyman T-mag with a Lee Classic Turret due the their SUPERIORITY over the aforementioned products. I suggest before you make further statements related to Lee and Lee durability, you go take a hard up close and personal look at the designs. You may find yourself changing your mind.
They are, and have been advertised as a tool for the "budget minded" reloader for many years.
Yes, they have. But they've obviously upped the ante in the last few years. You just haven't realized it and taken the time to look closely and see what's up.
I remember Richard Lee using this marketing concept when he started the company many moons ago......
The word "budget" has been swept under the rug in recent years maybe, but not necessarily the premise. It's still a good idea, and like I said, it has it's niche.
Richard Lee isn't running the company any more, John, his son is and his approach has been to bring out some incredibly improved products. So wide spread statements such as yours don't apply any more. The company's changed or I wouldn't bother. I certainly wouldn't buy the aluminum turret or their cheaper single stages.
But, to honestly compare the Lee equipment to Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Dillon or Hornady stuff by badmouthing it is way off, and foolhardy.
It's plainly obvious you don't have a clue. Go take a close look at the Clasic series and come back. I did or I wouldn't make such statements. Companies can improve. Companies can also rest on their laurels and fall behind engineering wise. Lee's products are going through a period of significant improvement where the value for dollar is incredible.
I think Lee has some great ideas.......honestly. The problem seems that these ideas are always fraught with minor glitchy issues for most.
The newer presses glitchiness is so minor it's about the same as the glitchiness of my Hornady LnL and Dillon's products.
Most of the complaints regarding their equipment is,
that it needs to be tinkered with constantly to keep it in working order.....and this complaint is constant if you read the threads on many forums, including, but not limited to, this one.
I would agree with this statement related to their other products. But the Classic stuff I have, I set it up correctly the first time, ONE TIME and it's been perfect every since. That's pretty much what my Hornady LnL and most other high end progressive owners do. I doubt one can improve on that. But to paint with a wide brush all products of a company is ignoring the products they have that are excellent. The Lee Classic series are really that good.
The Lee Precision presses would never stand up to the reloading, swaging and case forming processes that I do.
I just swaged 4000 .223 and 2000 30-06 cases using my Lee Classic. It was incredibly easy. If you're talking about swaging/resizing lead bullets, I do those on it as well with Lee sizing dies. Easy there as well. I think you are again speaking of the older aluminum equipment. My Rock Chucker wasn't any heavier duty than these presses are.
I've personally owned Lee's, Lyman's, RCBS', one Redding, and 3 Dillon's (which I still own).
Admittedly, I've never had a Hornady. I still have a Lyman Orange Crusher, T-Mag, 2 Dillon 550's, and a Dillon SDB. Eventually, the 2 Lyman's will be replaced with Redding's. Nothing wrong with the Lyman's really, but the Redding designs are both stronger on the single stage press(UltraMag) due to it's linkage points, and the T7 is both stronger, a larger (more 7 station) turret, and a little better design than the T-Mag.
My son would say you're an old FUDD with all that "old school" junk.
Regarding the current Lee Presses, the only one that "might" hold up for me is the Lee Classic single stage which is reportedly cast iron. The press' linkage is more in question in all cases more often.
Now I know you're not up on what's up with current Lee presses.
By the way, because it is a single stage, and probably the oldest design across all brands, is it an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight" because it's a Lee ?
Actually, Lee updated the single stage design as well, with a better linkage and a solid disposal system for the spent primers. Of course, if you were at all up on what was going on with Lee, you'd know this.
....or are we talking strictly a traditional turret ?
As far as runout, (and I've mentioned this in another thread), most turret presses are designed to square with the ram when it is fully extended under pressure. The alignment variance is minimal if any, and would not affect accuracy by factory spec's.
The fact remains the old turrets have larger runout. I wouldn't load long range ammo on them if I owned one, which I have and I didn't.
Dave, I think you had mentioned somewhere on the board about using Lee dies with the "rubber O Ring" for the mere fact that it allows the die to orient itself with the ram if there is any misalignment anywhere ?
If you read closely, it wasn't press alignment that was an issue or consideration, it was to help with deliberately "built in" tolerance of the shell holder, which is there to allow cases to be removed and inserted.
I respect your thought process regarding such, but if you were that worried about runout, why would you even consider that concept about the O Ring locking nut, or movement of the die to correct an out of alignment issue ?
Again, it was related to shell holder, not press alignment I was addressing.
Benedict.......
Quote:
This isn't even clever. Totally misguiding. Dave has answered it well; hundreds of other users would agree.
No, it isn't clever, or witty, or fashionable.......it's just plain, everyday common sense........"you get what you pay for"......bottom line, even if it's in just plain durability.
I realize this as do many millons of others.......
You horse and buggy guys go right on believing that. It'll keep the Lee's affordable for us that know the facts. Frankly, it's obvious that you don't know the Classic series presses based on your own comments, so in truth, since you haven't taken the time to look at both, you plain just don't know.
Like I said earlier......Lee has some good design idea's, but those design idea's alone, without the strength and durability to make it last, or the quirkiness of the machine to have to tinker with it all the time to keep it running......it just sounds frustrating to me.......
......and that's me.....but I still respect another's choice.
My experience with mine is exactly opposite of what you're saying here. Once adjusted and setup, no further adjustment needed.
I don't try to badmouth someone's decision, and if asked, many times I'll weigh differing factors (i.e., planned usage, budget, experience, etc.), and recommend accordingly based on a lengthy experience curve.
There's been a couple of times that I've honestly recommended Lee's stuff, and I'm honest to a fault regarding my experiences with them.
[COLOR="Red]Dunno why you feel a need to explain who you are, but ok.[/COLOR]
"Misguided"........is trying to state that the Lee press is better than all the other brands mentioned.....it might have some good points, a few pros & cons, but it isn't better by a long shot....hence the price.....(again, you get what you pay for)
[COLOR="Red"]At this point, I've realized you aren't well enough informed about the Lee Classic series presses to intelligently discuss them, so I consider anything you say along this line to be invalid.[/COLOR]
Quote:
hundreds of other users would agree
.........hundreds of other "brand loyal, pro Lee users" would agree, yes.
I'm not brand loyal to Lee. They have just put out a couple of damn fine presses the past couple years. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought them. You're taking the "head in the sand" approach and that's fine. But don't tell the rest of us who have actually bought and use them we're full oof it just because ignorance is bliss.
I've always heard regarding Lee's presses/equipment, that you "either loved them or hated them, no middle ground"........and to think that I kinda thought myself to be in the middle somewhat.
You've just got riled because I maligned your antique paperweights.
My son just came by and read your post. His comment: "Boy, what an old Fudd. Goes off without bothering to check things out."
Regards,
Dave
Has nothing to do with brand loyalty. If the old style turrets were better in any way, I'd say so, but they aren't. I'm not a brand loyal type. I take the engineering and "value for cost" approach. If it costs a lot and doesn't give much, I'm not impressed. If it's reasonably costs and provides a lot, I like it. I like the Lee, it's reasonably priced and provides a heckuva lot for that price.
I know most of the time it is in good fun, or jabbing from one brand to another, but, it seems kinda rude (to some) and somewhat opinionated to state that a tried & true press design like the turret press is an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight";
That's just opinionated garbage, and "way far" from the truth."
No, it isn't way far from the truth. I actually tried the Lyman, RCBS and the Redding, then tried the Lee. If it wasn't actually better engineered and didn't actually obselete them, I wouldn't say so, but it does. They have a ton of cast iron on them, they're tough, they'll last a long time, but so will the Lee and it lots better quality ammo 4 times as fast for less money. That made the one I owned a paperweight, but I sure ain't bothering to load on the thing when I have the Lee.
First off Dave, (I said it before) the only difference between the turret press, and the single stage, is that your saving the time it takes to change out the die, or in another note, to change out the turret..... a no brainer. Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period. If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive. A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
Seeing as the Lee has a "turret-like design" (more like a rounded toolhead), is it proper to compare it to the "non-progressive" manual turret type press that has no automated movements, or should you compare it to the press it more closely resembles.....the Dillon, or the Hornady progressives ?
It wouldn't stand a chance in comparison to either, even at less than half the cost.
1. First, Lee chose to define itand advertise it as a turret press, just like Dillon defined the AT500 as a turret press. In that they did this and priced it competitively in the market place against turret presses, not progressives. Therefore, anything in that price range is what it competes against and that's what the original poster was comparing it to. Hence, I answered his question, which was a better buy. The Lee is. Complaining that it "ain't a fair comparison" is like complaining the Model T wasn't fair to the horse and buggy.
2. As far as progressives go, it is about the same speed rounds per hour count as a Dillon 450, which produces about 200 production rounds per hours, according to my buddy who owns one. So, yes, it compares favorably against and is actually more versatile (It accepts standard dies, which my buddy's 450 doesn't.) than a "progressive" in it's price range.
Also, like I said in another thread, the turret is a "middle ground" between the single stage, and progressive presses......period.
If you wanna believe that, go ahead. The Lee still smokes the old style turrets.
If your machine index's automatically, on it's own, from one stage to the next, then you have a progressive.
It indexes the turret, moving the dies, not the cases. Therefore, it's a turret press, not a "progressive." Trying to redefine what it is still doesn't change the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs Lee, thereby making it a better value.
A semi progressive, like the Dillon 550, which is manually advanced, is still considered a progressive press by the fact that it advances from one station to the next.
The AT500 Turret, which is what Dillon called the 550 with all the accesories removed, was defined as a turret press. While I agree the 550 is a semi progressive, I would define all current progressives that don't have a bullet and case feed semi progressives. But I don't name them, the manufacturer does and Dillon calls the 550 a progressive and Lee calls the Lee Classic Turret a turret. So that's the markets the compete in. And attempting to redefine things to make things "more fair" still doesn't change the fact the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs less than they do. Thereby making it a better value for the money.
"I've been into the casting & handloading game in a "big way" since I was 11 yrs. old. I'm now 50 (retired), and more involved than I've ever been, so, it's been awhile."
Nice to be retired.
I've had a chance to use all the brands of equipment mentioned here, including Lee Precision. I have my own personal preferences, as do all, but personally, very few of them are Lee Precision items. Not because I have anything against them "at all", they have their niche, and I've actually given them every possible consideration regarding their possible usage. But they just didn't hold up very well for me for what, and how much I do.
Souns like you haven't tried anything in the Classic series. I replaced my RCBS Rock Chucker with a Lee Classic Cast single stage and the Lyman T-mag with a Lee Classic Turret due the their SUPERIORITY over the aforementioned products. I suggest before you make further statements related to Lee and Lee durability, you go take a hard up close and personal look at the designs. You may find yourself changing your mind.
They are, and have been advertised as a tool for the "budget minded" reloader for many years.
Yes, they have. But they've obviously upped the ante in the last few years. You just haven't realized it and taken the time to look closely and see what's up.
I remember Richard Lee using this marketing concept when he started the company many moons ago......
The word "budget" has been swept under the rug in recent years maybe, but not necessarily the premise. It's still a good idea, and like I said, it has it's niche.
Richard Lee isn't running the company any more, John, his son is and his approach has been to bring out some incredibly improved products. So wide spread statements such as yours don't apply any more. The company's changed or I wouldn't bother. I certainly wouldn't buy the aluminum turret or their cheaper single stages.
But, to honestly compare the Lee equipment to Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Dillon or Hornady stuff by badmouthing it is way off, and foolhardy.
It's plainly obvious you don't have a clue. Go take a close look at the Clasic series and come back. I did or I wouldn't make such statements. Companies can improve. Companies can also rest on their laurels and fall behind engineering wise. Lee's products are going through a period of significant improvement where the value for dollar is incredible.
I think Lee has some great ideas.......honestly. The problem seems that these ideas are always fraught with minor glitchy issues for most.
The newer presses glitchiness is so minor it's about the same as the glitchiness of my Hornady LnL and Dillon's products.
Most of the complaints regarding their equipment is,
that it needs to be tinkered with constantly to keep it in working order.....and this complaint is constant if you read the threads on many forums, including, but not limited to, this one.
I would agree with this statement related to their other products. But the Classic stuff I have, I set it up correctly the first time, ONE TIME and it's been perfect every since. That's pretty much what my Hornady LnL and most other high end progressive owners do. I doubt one can improve on that. But to paint with a wide brush all products of a company is ignoring the products they have that are excellent. The Lee Classic series are really that good.
The Lee Precision presses would never stand up to the reloading, swaging and case forming processes that I do.
I just swaged 4000 .223 and 2000 30-06 cases using my Lee Classic. It was incredibly easy. If you're talking about swaging/resizing lead bullets, I do those on it as well with Lee sizing dies. Easy there as well. I think you are again speaking of the older aluminum equipment. My Rock Chucker wasn't any heavier duty than these presses are.
I've personally owned Lee's, Lyman's, RCBS', one Redding, and 3 Dillon's (which I still own).
Admittedly, I've never had a Hornady. I still have a Lyman Orange Crusher, T-Mag, 2 Dillon 550's, and a Dillon SDB. Eventually, the 2 Lyman's will be replaced with Redding's. Nothing wrong with the Lyman's really, but the Redding designs are both stronger on the single stage press(UltraMag) due to it's linkage points, and the T7 is both stronger, a larger (more 7 station) turret, and a little better design than the T-Mag.
My son would say you're an old FUDD with all that "old school" junk.
Regarding the current Lee Presses, the only one that "might" hold up for me is the Lee Classic single stage which is reportedly cast iron. The press' linkage is more in question in all cases more often.
Now I know you're not up on what's up with current Lee presses.
By the way, because it is a single stage, and probably the oldest design across all brands, is it an "outdated, overpriced, heavy duty, overweight, underengineered paperweight" because it's a Lee ?
Actually, Lee updated the single stage design as well, with a better linkage and a solid disposal system for the spent primers. Of course, if you were at all up on what was going on with Lee, you'd know this.
....or are we talking strictly a traditional turret ?
As far as runout, (and I've mentioned this in another thread), most turret presses are designed to square with the ram when it is fully extended under pressure. The alignment variance is minimal if any, and would not affect accuracy by factory spec's.
The fact remains the old turrets have larger runout. I wouldn't load long range ammo on them if I owned one, which I have and I didn't.
Dave, I think you had mentioned somewhere on the board about using Lee dies with the "rubber O Ring" for the mere fact that it allows the die to orient itself with the ram if there is any misalignment anywhere ?
If you read closely, it wasn't press alignment that was an issue or consideration, it was to help with deliberately "built in" tolerance of the shell holder, which is there to allow cases to be removed and inserted.
I respect your thought process regarding such, but if you were that worried about runout, why would you even consider that concept about the O Ring locking nut, or movement of the die to correct an out of alignment issue ?
Again, it was related to shell holder, not press alignment I was addressing.
Benedict.......
Quote:
This isn't even clever. Totally misguiding. Dave has answered it well; hundreds of other users would agree.
No, it isn't clever, or witty, or fashionable.......it's just plain, everyday common sense........"you get what you pay for"......bottom line, even if it's in just plain durability.
I realize this as do many millons of others.......
You horse and buggy guys go right on believing that. It'll keep the Lee's affordable for us that know the facts. Frankly, it's obvious that you don't know the Classic series presses based on your own comments, so in truth, since you haven't taken the time to look at both, you plain just don't know.
Like I said earlier......Lee has some good design idea's, but those design idea's alone, without the strength and durability to make it last, or the quirkiness of the machine to have to tinker with it all the time to keep it running......it just sounds frustrating to me.......
......and that's me.....but I still respect another's choice.
My experience with mine is exactly opposite of what you're saying here. Once adjusted and setup, no further adjustment needed.
I don't try to badmouth someone's decision, and if asked, many times I'll weigh differing factors (i.e., planned usage, budget, experience, etc.), and recommend accordingly based on a lengthy experience curve.
There's been a couple of times that I've honestly recommended Lee's stuff, and I'm honest to a fault regarding my experiences with them.
[COLOR="Red]Dunno why you feel a need to explain who you are, but ok.[/COLOR]
"Misguided"........is trying to state that the Lee press is better than all the other brands mentioned.....it might have some good points, a few pros & cons, but it isn't better by a long shot....hence the price.....(again, you get what you pay for)
[COLOR="Red"]At this point, I've realized you aren't well enough informed about the Lee Classic series presses to intelligently discuss them, so I consider anything you say along this line to be invalid.[/COLOR]
Quote:
hundreds of other users would agree
.........hundreds of other "brand loyal, pro Lee users" would agree, yes.
I'm not brand loyal to Lee. They have just put out a couple of damn fine presses the past couple years. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought them. You're taking the "head in the sand" approach and that's fine. But don't tell the rest of us who have actually bought and use them we're full oof it just because ignorance is bliss.
I've always heard regarding Lee's presses/equipment, that you "either loved them or hated them, no middle ground"........and to think that I kinda thought myself to be in the middle somewhat.
You've just got riled because I maligned your antique paperweights.
My son just came by and read your post. His comment: "Boy, what an old Fudd. Goes off without bothering to check things out."
Regards,
Dave
Dave,
Well, to put that much effort into a reply post.....must've hit a nerve. I'm honored .
I can see you're so involved with the Lee's that you even use the color red in your replies........funny.
It's also nice to see you have your son proofread your work for you.........hopefully (as you mentioned) he'll learn from John Lee's lead, and improve on his father's idea's.......not necessarily considering folks "Fudd's" who don't necessarily shun new things, but also rely on tried & true methods & equipment.
Man, what are they teaching kids these days ?
By the way, without all the "copying, pasting and quoting" that you're famous for.....your points could be realized alot quicker there Dave. Since you like that format, I'll continue to use it.
I know this thread initially was comparing the Lee Classic Turret to the Lyman T-Mag, and it got off on a tangent regarding definitions....., so......I'll make it my last....
Well, on a few points;
Let's see Redding green, Lyman orange, RCBS green, Dillon blue.....which one ?.........eeeny, meeeny, miney, moe......
Goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about...(or your buddies)
One of my 550B's was originally a RL450, and you're wrong in the fact that it doesn't take standard dies. The 450 had a manual powder measure and priming system, but it's structural difference was that it didn't have a seperate toolhead at the time. The four stations were integral threaded positions of the frame, and took standard dies. I have the frame still if you need to see a photo for yourself.
Wow, that's some pretty astute reasoning there Dave...........the fact that the case is indexed to the next station automatically has nothing to do with it being progressive in the true sense huh ?.......
...okay, for the sake of argument, lets call the Lee "a progressive turret"....how's that ?.........happy ?
....Okay, simple math.....do you see any difference between the two examples you mentioned ?
Regardless whether they both call their presses turrets, they aren't the same.....although the dies turn on the Lee, and the shellholder turns on some Dillon's, The AT500 has more in common with the old style turrets, than the Lee does, because the Lee automatically indexes it's dies, the AT500 doesn't index anything, because it's shellholder is manually indexed.
Regarding definitions, comparing "the Lee Classic Turret" to the older turret presses......kind of sounds like beating up on the old guy.
Why not compare the Lee Classic Turret to the machines that it more closely resembles, the Square Deal, the 500B, or the Hornady Progressive. '
Nope, easier to go after the old style turrets........much easier to make them look good compared to those.....yeah, that sounds fair.
Actually, the initial choice was the Lyman T-Mag II Kit and the Lee Classic Turret.
The Lyman T-Mag II, Redding T7, and RCBS turret presses all run between $130 and $220, so yep, prices are comparable for the presses by themselves.
But, aside from that, if it fall's within the same given price range, then it's comparable huh ?
No considerations regarding differences in operation or nothing, just price, right ?
Due to the obvious differences,....... Man, that's just plain retarded.........
If a washing machine fell in that price range, would you consider that as well......?
I'm well aware that John Lee had taken over for his father. And yes, I'm aware of his improvements on the "Classic Series"
I've loaded on the Lee Classic Turret, so I know full well how it operates. And yes, the owner had the same glitchy primer problem that took up most of the first page of this hijacked thread.
The Lee Turret, although they are compared to the older turret presses (safe bet), are a progressive, and are in no way a comparison to the Dillon, or Hornady. Even for the reduced price.
Ramblin on here for nothing I feel......
FWIW......
Bob
Well, to put that much effort into a reply post.....must've hit a nerve. I'm honored
.I can see you're so involved with the Lee's that you even use the color red in your replies........funny.
It's also nice to see you have your son proofread your work for you.........hopefully (as you mentioned) he'll learn from John Lee's lead, and improve on his father's idea's.......not necessarily considering folks "Fudd's" who don't necessarily shun new things, but also rely on tried & true methods & equipment.
Man, what are they teaching kids these days ?
By the way, without all the "copying, pasting and quoting" that you're famous for.....your points could be realized alot quicker there Dave. Since you like that format, I'll continue to use it.
I know this thread initially was comparing the Lee Classic Turret to the Lyman T-Mag, and it got off on a tangent regarding definitions....., so......I'll make it my last....
Well, on a few points;
Let's see Redding green, Lyman orange, RCBS green, Dillon blue.....which one ?.........eeeny, meeeny, miney, moe......
Goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about...(or your buddies)
One of my 550B's was originally a RL450, and you're wrong in the fact that it doesn't take standard dies. The 450 had a manual powder measure and priming system, but it's structural difference was that it didn't have a seperate toolhead at the time. The four stations were integral threaded positions of the frame, and took standard dies. I have the frame still if you need to see a photo for yourself.
Wow, that's some pretty astute reasoning there Dave...........the fact that the case is indexed to the next station automatically has nothing to do with it being progressive in the true sense huh ?.......
...okay, for the sake of argument, lets call the Lee "a progressive turret"....how's that ?.........happy ?
....Okay, simple math.....do you see any difference between the two examples you mentioned ?
Regardless whether they both call their presses turrets, they aren't the same.....although the dies turn on the Lee, and the shellholder turns on some Dillon's, The AT500 has more in common with the old style turrets, than the Lee does, because the Lee automatically indexes it's dies, the AT500 doesn't index anything, because it's shellholder is manually indexed.
Regarding definitions, comparing "the Lee Classic Turret" to the older turret presses......kind of sounds like beating up on the old guy.
Why not compare the Lee Classic Turret to the machines that it more closely resembles, the Square Deal, the 500B, or the Hornady Progressive. '
Nope, easier to go after the old style turrets........much easier to make them look good compared to those.....yeah, that sounds fair.
Actually, the initial choice was the Lyman T-Mag II Kit and the Lee Classic Turret.
The Lyman T-Mag II, Redding T7, and RCBS turret presses all run between $130 and $220, so yep, prices are comparable for the presses by themselves.
But, aside from that, if it fall's within the same given price range, then it's comparable huh ?
No considerations regarding differences in operation or nothing, just price, right ?
Due to the obvious differences,....... Man, that's just plain retarded.........
If a washing machine fell in that price range, would you consider that as well......?
I'm well aware that John Lee had taken over for his father. And yes, I'm aware of his improvements on the "Classic Series"
I've loaded on the Lee Classic Turret, so I know full well how it operates. And yes, the owner had the same glitchy primer problem that took up most of the first page of this hijacked thread.
The Lee Turret, although they are compared to the older turret presses (safe bet), are a progressive, and are in no way a comparison to the Dillon, or Hornady. Even for the reduced price.
Ramblin on here for nothing I feel......
FWIW......
Bob
cracked butt
Member
I think the comparison of the Lee Classic Turret to Lyman and Redding is fair. Its just that the Green and orange presses lack the auto-index feature.
RustyFN
Member
I am just curious. If you get what you pay for then why do I see posts from Dillon owners needing help with their press. Most of the problems I see are priming issues and powder measure problems. If you get what you pay for should the Dillon not run trouble free for as much as it cost.
I have the same impression from Dillon owners. The only difference between Dillon owners and Lee owners is most Dillon owners can't admit to having problems with their press. Is it because they are embarrassed about having problems after paying so much?
Rusty
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
Member
Well, to put that much effort into a reply post.....must've hit a nerve. I'm honored .
Don't be overly honored, I type 125WPM plus. Didn't take me that long.
I can see you're so involved with the Lee's that you even use the color red in your replies........funny.
It's an easy color for old men to see.
It's also nice to see you have your son proofread your work for you.........
Actually, he just read your post, not my reply.
hopefully (as you mentioned) he'll learn from John Lee's lead, and improve on his father's idea's.......not necessarily considering folks "Fudd's" who don't necessarily shun new things, but also rely on tried & true methods & equipment.
Man, what are they teaching kids these days ?
There's always a compromise between advancing technology and using tried and true methods. In his case, he's graduating from UNC Chapel Hill with a degree in Investment Banking in a matter of days. While he was at UNC, he started a gun club and got the support of the NRA and every gun club in the state of North Carolina. He'll graduate with honors and plans to work as an investment banker while he also works as a part time assistant preacher at the Baptist Church he attends. He's not a kid any more. He's a grown man with very fine credentials capable of starting an organization from the ground up. The officers he's leaving will vote a replacement for him when he graduates and the club is doing quite well on the campus.
He started shooting at the age of 4 and he's been reloading since he was about eight years old. He's 22 now. That gives him what, 14 years experience reloading pistol, rifle and shotgun? In addition, he's been to and seen most every single setup of reloading, shotgun, rifle and pistol that any club in the state of North Carolina offers, so he's had pretty good access to a significant amount of equipment.
So I think, with as much as he's been exposed to in the shooting and reloading world, he's probably more qualified than most to identify those that are knowledgeable and those that haven't kept up.
I should say I used his comment to give ya a hard time. At 47, I'm qualified to identify you as a crumudgeon, since I'm working hard on my own crumudgeon certificate.
By the way, without all the "copying, pasting and quoting" that you're famous for.....your points could be realized alot quicker there Dave. Since you like that format, I'll continue to use it.
Now what does my method of reponse have to do with the facts on the presses? None.
I know this thread initially was comparing the Lee Classic Turret to the Lyman T-Mag, and it got off on a tangent regarding definitions....., so......I'll make it my last....
Actually, you made an attempt to get it off on a tangent regarding definitions. I just pointed a way back from that tangent.
Goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about...(or your buddies)
One of my 550B's was originally a RL450, and you're wrong in the fact that it doesn't take standard dies. The 450 had a manual powder measure and priming system, but it's structural difference was that it didn't have a seperate toolhead at the time. The four stations were integral threaded positions of the frame, and took standard dies. I have the frame still if you need to see a photo for yourself.
I never claimed to be an expert with ancient, obselete, no longer manufactured Dillons. I went by what my buddy told me. I did check with my buddy and apparently, he's got a Dillon 450 junior that's been upgraded to a 450 B. He does have a single standard die, but based on the information he provided me about the 450, I'll stick by the statement that the Lee Classic Turret can and does keep up with that particular "progressive" and costs less. I notice you didn't deny the round per hour count I quoted.
Quote:
It indexes the turret, moving the dies, not the cases. Therefore, it's a turret press, not a "progressive." Trying to redefine what it is still doesn't change the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs Lee, thereby making it a better value.
Wow, that's some pretty astute reasoning there Dave...........the fact that the case is indexed to the next station automatically has nothing to do with it being progressive in the true sense huh ?.......
...okay, for the sake of argument, lets call the Lee "a progressive turret"....how's that ?.........happy ?
I was happy in the first place. Still am. I'll call the Lee what the manufacturer calls it. Just like I'll call a Dillon 550 a progressive instead of an updated turret. I'm not in the business of defining product for their respective marketing departments or selecting a marketing segment for them.
....Okay, simple math.....do you see any difference between the two examples you mentioned ?
Regardless whether they both call their presses turrets, they aren't the same.....although the dies turn on the Lee, and the shellholder turns on some Dillon's, The AT500 has more in common with the old style turrets, than the Lee does, because the Lee automatically indexes it's dies, the AT500 doesn't index anything, because it's shellholder is manually indexed.
This is all beside the point. The Lee still smokes the older turrents in every category. Smoke and mirrors, distractions notwithstanding.
Regarding definitions, comparing "the Lee Classic Turret" to the older turret presses......kind of sounds like beating up on the old guy.
They're machines, not people. I make purchase decisions and advise others to make purchase decisions based on logic, not emotion.
Why not compare the Lee Classic Turret to the machines that it more closely resembles, the Square Deal, the 500B, or the Hornady Progressive. '
The Lee is more versatile than the Square Deal B, doesn't require non-standard dies and costs less. Never heard of the 500B and the Lee Classic Turret is a good enough press most reloaders could buy one and never need a Hornady Lock N Load. I own both, so I should know.
Nope, easier to go after the old style turrets........much easier to make them look good compared to those.....yeah, that sounds fair.
The "fairness doctrine" and political correctness is what the liberals are going to use to force conservative talk show hosts off the air in coming years. I'm not interested in fair. It's a MACHINE, not a person. Buy on LOGIC. I like horse and buggies, but they won't get me to work in a reaosnable amount of time.
Quote:
In that they did this and priced it competitively in the market place against turret presses, not progressives. Therefore, anything in that price range is what it competes against and that's what the original poster was comparing it to. Hence, I answered his question, which was a better buy. The Lee is. Complaining that it "ain't a fair comparison" is like complaining the Model T wasn't fair to the horse and buggy.
Actually, the initial choice was the Lyman T-Mag II Kit and the Lee Classic Turret.
No Duh. The Lee Classic Turret is still a better choice.
The Lyman T-Mag II, Redding T7, and RCBS turret presses all run between $130 and $220, so yep, prices are comparable for the presses by themselves.
The Lee is actually less expensive, even when fully decked out. If you want to compare stripped press basic price to stripped press basic price, the Lee is about half the lowest number you quoted.
But, aside from that, if it fall's within the same given price range, then it's comparable huh ? No considerations regarding differences in operation or nothing, just price, right ?
As far as operation, the Lee Classic Turret is superior in every aspect of operation to any of those three presses and costs less. It's more accurate, faster loader, as durable, costs less. Meets and has incorporates design improvements such as primer handling and linkage stops those presses don't incorporate.
Due to the obvious differences,....... Man, that's just plain retarded.........
Retarded is making an emotional decision about a piece of machinery.
If a washing machine fell in that price range, would you consider that as well......?
This one escapes me and has nothing to do with reloading. Again, making an attempt to "wander off" somewhere.
I'm well aware that John Lee had taken over for his father. And yes, I'm aware of his improvements on the "Classic Series"
I've loaded on the Lee Classic Turret, so I know full well how it operates. And yes, the owner had the same glitchy primer problem that took up most of the first page of this hijacked thread.
If it's glitchy, he's not got it setup right. There's enough owners of the press on this board to attest to that. They've been able to set theirs up correctly and haven't had problems since. "Glitchy" is when you can't adjust somethnig to stop having a problem. You can with the Safety Prime. Drilling out the mounting bracket hole one drill size, properly aligning the safety prime and learning to operate it correctly is certainly less effort than modifying a Dillon powder measure to get it to handle extruded powders better. Each brand of press has their quirks. The Lee's is certainly no worse than others and is significantly better than some that cost a good bit more. I suppose I could point out quirks of old style turrets, like they're slow and most of their priming setups are poor, but those aren't glitches, they're just poor design.
The Lee Turret, although they are compared to the older turret presses (safe bet), are a progressive, and are in no way a comparison to the Dillon, or Hornady. Even for the reduced price.
Horse and buggies were "safe bets" too back n the day. This is the same logic folks used when the Dillon progressives first came out as well.
Regards,
Dave
Don't be overly honored, I type 125WPM plus. Didn't take me that long.
I can see you're so involved with the Lee's that you even use the color red in your replies........funny.
It's an easy color for old men to see.
It's also nice to see you have your son proofread your work for you.........
Actually, he just read your post, not my reply.
hopefully (as you mentioned) he'll learn from John Lee's lead, and improve on his father's idea's.......not necessarily considering folks "Fudd's" who don't necessarily shun new things, but also rely on tried & true methods & equipment.
Man, what are they teaching kids these days ?
There's always a compromise between advancing technology and using tried and true methods. In his case, he's graduating from UNC Chapel Hill with a degree in Investment Banking in a matter of days. While he was at UNC, he started a gun club and got the support of the NRA and every gun club in the state of North Carolina. He'll graduate with honors and plans to work as an investment banker while he also works as a part time assistant preacher at the Baptist Church he attends. He's not a kid any more. He's a grown man with very fine credentials capable of starting an organization from the ground up. The officers he's leaving will vote a replacement for him when he graduates and the club is doing quite well on the campus.
He started shooting at the age of 4 and he's been reloading since he was about eight years old. He's 22 now. That gives him what, 14 years experience reloading pistol, rifle and shotgun? In addition, he's been to and seen most every single setup of reloading, shotgun, rifle and pistol that any club in the state of North Carolina offers, so he's had pretty good access to a significant amount of equipment.
So I think, with as much as he's been exposed to in the shooting and reloading world, he's probably more qualified than most to identify those that are knowledgeable and those that haven't kept up.
I should say I used his comment to give ya a hard time. At 47, I'm qualified to identify you as a crumudgeon, since I'm working hard on my own crumudgeon certificate.
By the way, without all the "copying, pasting and quoting" that you're famous for.....your points could be realized alot quicker there Dave. Since you like that format, I'll continue to use it.
Now what does my method of reponse have to do with the facts on the presses? None.
I know this thread initially was comparing the Lee Classic Turret to the Lyman T-Mag, and it got off on a tangent regarding definitions....., so......I'll make it my last....
Actually, you made an attempt to get it off on a tangent regarding definitions. I just pointed a way back from that tangent.
Goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about...(or your buddies)
One of my 550B's was originally a RL450, and you're wrong in the fact that it doesn't take standard dies. The 450 had a manual powder measure and priming system, but it's structural difference was that it didn't have a seperate toolhead at the time. The four stations were integral threaded positions of the frame, and took standard dies. I have the frame still if you need to see a photo for yourself.
I never claimed to be an expert with ancient, obselete, no longer manufactured Dillons. I went by what my buddy told me. I did check with my buddy and apparently, he's got a Dillon 450 junior that's been upgraded to a 450 B. He does have a single standard die, but based on the information he provided me about the 450, I'll stick by the statement that the Lee Classic Turret can and does keep up with that particular "progressive" and costs less. I notice you didn't deny the round per hour count I quoted.
Quote:
It indexes the turret, moving the dies, not the cases. Therefore, it's a turret press, not a "progressive." Trying to redefine what it is still doesn't change the Lee smokes the old style turrets and costs Lee, thereby making it a better value.
Wow, that's some pretty astute reasoning there Dave...........the fact that the case is indexed to the next station automatically has nothing to do with it being progressive in the true sense huh ?.......
...okay, for the sake of argument, lets call the Lee "a progressive turret"....how's that ?.........happy ?
I was happy in the first place. Still am. I'll call the Lee what the manufacturer calls it. Just like I'll call a Dillon 550 a progressive instead of an updated turret. I'm not in the business of defining product for their respective marketing departments or selecting a marketing segment for them.
....Okay, simple math.....do you see any difference between the two examples you mentioned ?
Regardless whether they both call their presses turrets, they aren't the same.....although the dies turn on the Lee, and the shellholder turns on some Dillon's, The AT500 has more in common with the old style turrets, than the Lee does, because the Lee automatically indexes it's dies, the AT500 doesn't index anything, because it's shellholder is manually indexed.
This is all beside the point. The Lee still smokes the older turrents in every category. Smoke and mirrors, distractions notwithstanding.
Regarding definitions, comparing "the Lee Classic Turret" to the older turret presses......kind of sounds like beating up on the old guy.
They're machines, not people. I make purchase decisions and advise others to make purchase decisions based on logic, not emotion.
Why not compare the Lee Classic Turret to the machines that it more closely resembles, the Square Deal, the 500B, or the Hornady Progressive. '
The Lee is more versatile than the Square Deal B, doesn't require non-standard dies and costs less. Never heard of the 500B and the Lee Classic Turret is a good enough press most reloaders could buy one and never need a Hornady Lock N Load. I own both, so I should know.
Nope, easier to go after the old style turrets........much easier to make them look good compared to those.....yeah, that sounds fair.
The "fairness doctrine" and political correctness is what the liberals are going to use to force conservative talk show hosts off the air in coming years. I'm not interested in fair. It's a MACHINE, not a person. Buy on LOGIC. I like horse and buggies, but they won't get me to work in a reaosnable amount of time.
Quote:
In that they did this and priced it competitively in the market place against turret presses, not progressives. Therefore, anything in that price range is what it competes against and that's what the original poster was comparing it to. Hence, I answered his question, which was a better buy. The Lee is. Complaining that it "ain't a fair comparison" is like complaining the Model T wasn't fair to the horse and buggy.
Actually, the initial choice was the Lyman T-Mag II Kit and the Lee Classic Turret.
No Duh. The Lee Classic Turret is still a better choice.
The Lyman T-Mag II, Redding T7, and RCBS turret presses all run between $130 and $220, so yep, prices are comparable for the presses by themselves.
The Lee is actually less expensive, even when fully decked out. If you want to compare stripped press basic price to stripped press basic price, the Lee is about half the lowest number you quoted.
But, aside from that, if it fall's within the same given price range, then it's comparable huh ? No considerations regarding differences in operation or nothing, just price, right ?
As far as operation, the Lee Classic Turret is superior in every aspect of operation to any of those three presses and costs less. It's more accurate, faster loader, as durable, costs less. Meets and has incorporates design improvements such as primer handling and linkage stops those presses don't incorporate.
Due to the obvious differences,....... Man, that's just plain retarded.........
Retarded is making an emotional decision about a piece of machinery.
If a washing machine fell in that price range, would you consider that as well......?
This one escapes me and has nothing to do with reloading. Again, making an attempt to "wander off" somewhere.
I'm well aware that John Lee had taken over for his father. And yes, I'm aware of his improvements on the "Classic Series"
I've loaded on the Lee Classic Turret, so I know full well how it operates. And yes, the owner had the same glitchy primer problem that took up most of the first page of this hijacked thread.
If it's glitchy, he's not got it setup right. There's enough owners of the press on this board to attest to that. They've been able to set theirs up correctly and haven't had problems since. "Glitchy" is when you can't adjust somethnig to stop having a problem. You can with the Safety Prime. Drilling out the mounting bracket hole one drill size, properly aligning the safety prime and learning to operate it correctly is certainly less effort than modifying a Dillon powder measure to get it to handle extruded powders better. Each brand of press has their quirks. The Lee's is certainly no worse than others and is significantly better than some that cost a good bit more. I suppose I could point out quirks of old style turrets, like they're slow and most of their priming setups are poor, but those aren't glitches, they're just poor design.
The Lee Turret, although they are compared to the older turret presses (safe bet), are a progressive, and are in no way a comparison to the Dillon, or Hornady. Even for the reduced price.
Horse and buggies were "safe bets" too back n the day. This is the same logic folks used when the Dillon progressives first came out as well.
Regards,
Dave
Last edited:
George757
Member
Now, "That's Entertainment"!!!
jad0110
Member
Yikes, is it just me, or is it getting a little hot in here.
I won't call out any names, but it may be helpful to recall this sticky: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=188346
Just a friendly reminder before anyone gets called out by the Mods. That would not be cool; I don't think anyone wants that.
-------
Back on topic.
The original poster was asking about the Lyman Ultimate Reloading Kit or the Lee Classic Turret Kit.
I have no experience with the Lyman (or any other press), so I cannot comment on it. But I do own a Lee Classic Turret Press kit from Kempf Gun Shop and I wholeheartedly recommend it!
The directions that come with the equipment could be better, but the help videos on the Lee homepage are very useful. I set my laptop up next to the press and played each video as I assembled the press and everything turned out perfectly. I had zero problems setting up the Lee Safety Prime (it was actually the easiest part to set up, just watch the video - it makes it a LOT easier.) It is a lot of fun to use.
After setting it up, I cleaned it with a paper towel sprayed with Hoppes Elite. Then I put a very light coating of Mobile 1 on most of the press, making sure I got all the moving parts/contact surfaces. Wow, it is super slick now! This machine is a joy to use.
Benedict1 is right. If you do decide to the the Lee, you can't beat Kempf IMHO. The upgrade to the Pro Auto Disk is well worth the money. I also bought 2000 cast .38 bullets from them for about $110 with shipping.
Good luck with your decision!
I won't call out any names, but it may be helpful to recall this sticky: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=188346
Just a friendly reminder before anyone gets called out by the Mods. That would not be cool; I don't think anyone wants that.
-------
Back on topic.
The original poster was asking about the Lyman Ultimate Reloading Kit or the Lee Classic Turret Kit.
I have no experience with the Lyman (or any other press), so I cannot comment on it. But I do own a Lee Classic Turret Press kit from Kempf Gun Shop and I wholeheartedly recommend it!
The directions that come with the equipment could be better, but the help videos on the Lee homepage are very useful. I set my laptop up next to the press and played each video as I assembled the press and everything turned out perfectly. I had zero problems setting up the Lee Safety Prime (it was actually the easiest part to set up, just watch the video - it makes it a LOT easier.) It is a lot of fun to use.
After setting it up, I cleaned it with a paper towel sprayed with Hoppes Elite. Then I put a very light coating of Mobile 1 on most of the press, making sure I got all the moving parts/contact surfaces. Wow, it is super slick now! This machine is a joy to use.
Benedict1 is right. If you do decide to the the Lee, you can't beat Kempf IMHO. The upgrade to the Pro Auto Disk is well worth the money. I also bought 2000 cast .38 bullets from them for about $110 with shipping.
Good luck with your decision!
George........
Dave,
Sincerely.......kudo's to your kid........glad to see that one kid takes education seriously.........
After being a cop for the better part of 20 yrs., and seeing the crap that society produces, I respect that. Sounds like he's well centered.........
Onto the rehash.......
Dave........c'mon........honestly, they're a mile long rambling of opinions......okay, you have nothing against the other stuff "you say" in one post, but you've insulted the other brands and companies several times in comparison to the Lee's. Honestly, I get it......
Anyway, it was comically, a little jab......
Yes, that's "Curmudgeon Fudd" thank you.......
Bottom line.......you like your Lee and in your opinion, it's the best......I understand........I use to hear Lee commonly referred to as "pot metal junk".
Now back then I thought that was pretty harsh, but I could see the reasons for the name tag.
John improved the company, okay......so he did, but that still doesn't bring it up to the quality level of the others necessarily.
Not a big braggin' point there Dave........one reason why I didn't....I could well surpass that on my manual RL450 back in the day. Get your components ready and go to it.....when you're done, count the finished rounds.
I can run steady at 4 to 5 rounds per minute, and that's including a primer fill if the tubes are ready.
Anywhere from 240-300 rnds. per hour, and that was with a manual powder & primer system. I got so use to it, that I could run almost as fast as the auto systems. Not quite, but close.
No Dave, but it seems you'll use terminologies to support your case when need be, and deny them, or blow them off, when they don't.
Kind of sounds like "arguing the ends against the middle". Besides, ever hear of marketing and market targeting when naming or packaging products ?
(One reason I made the washing machine comment.... humorous slam....)
Comparing apples to oranges really no wonder the smoke.....Id' expect to see smoke comparing the two...
Dave, your logic is full of holes from over here. I can't even understand how you can compare the Lee Turret to the older turret machines.....and you're talking logic ?
Emotion, on the other hand ?........I have no connection to any particular name brand, I like several.....except much of the Lee stuff.
With the argument your making, and the way you support or defend the Lee Turret, it clearly sounds to me that there's a whole lotta love goin' on there, and your logic is skewed because of it.
Lee always has been the best advertisement of "what not to buy" for many years.........hey, if it "floats your boat", go for it.
I can afford better, and even if I couldn't, I wouldn't gamble what money I had on the poor reputation that Lee has had in the past, even if John Lee improved it when he took over. Like I said, they're a good budget minded product.
Also, on another note, Lee's warranty is a limited lifetime warranty, "limited" being the key word here.
Dillon has a no BS warranty, and that's exactly what it is.......after 23 years on my SDB, a quick call and instead of sending me the small roller I needed, they sent me the whole priming system. The same thing occurred with a powder measure years ago on another machine, and a small piece had broken......they send me the whole powder measure.
A call....that's all it took....no photos, no broken parts as proof.......nothing.
And, for what I put my machines through, and the number of rounds I load on them, they are entitled to break once in awhile............a Lee would never make it to a "second wind".
Neither will that wonder machine you're touting. It might be fine for the money, but to make it sound good, you're comparing it to equipment that isn't even in the same realm.
Can we humorously resurrect that washing machine comment ? No, never mind...........
That "500B" was a typo (don't have that 125wpm speed-but I'm not bad for a self taught typist though....on second thought, not a very manly thing to brag about Dave...... ), the machine was a 550B, which will reload just about any caliber, pistol or rifle.
The SDB loads only pistol, and has different dies, but it was self indexing, which was why I included it.
Regarding a comparison to the older style turrets..........well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue......
I feel Lee intended to market their Classic Turret in between the old turrets and the newer progressives, as it would make more sense that way.
But hey, if they want (or anyone else for that matter) to compare their machine to those older turrets....making themselves feel better.....go for it.....
Anyone even remotely experienced will easily see the difference.
FWIW......
Bob
Dave,
Sincerely.......kudo's to your kid........glad to see that one kid takes education seriously.........
After being a cop for the better part of 20 yrs., and seeing the crap that society produces, I respect that. Sounds like he's well centered.........
Onto the rehash.......
Dave........c'mon........honestly, they're a mile long rambling of opinions......okay, you have nothing against the other stuff "you say" in one post, but you've insulted the other brands and companies several times in comparison to the Lee's. Honestly, I get it......
Anyway, it was comically, a little jab......
Yes, that's "Curmudgeon Fudd" thank you.......
Bottom line.......you like your Lee and in your opinion, it's the best......I understand........I use to hear Lee commonly referred to as "pot metal junk".
Now back then I thought that was pretty harsh, but I could see the reasons for the name tag.
John improved the company, okay......so he did, but that still doesn't bring it up to the quality level of the others necessarily.
Not a big braggin' point there Dave........one reason why I didn't....I could well surpass that on my manual RL450 back in the day. Get your components ready and go to it.....when you're done, count the finished rounds.
I can run steady at 4 to 5 rounds per minute, and that's including a primer fill if the tubes are ready.
Anywhere from 240-300 rnds. per hour, and that was with a manual powder & primer system. I got so use to it, that I could run almost as fast as the auto systems. Not quite, but close.
No Dave, but it seems you'll use terminologies to support your case when need be, and deny them, or blow them off, when they don't.
Kind of sounds like "arguing the ends against the middle". Besides, ever hear of marketing and market targeting when naming or packaging products ?
(One reason I made the washing machine comment.... humorous slam....)
Again, because you're comparing this Lee Turret against older non-automatically indexed machines......kind of a (again) no brainer there bud......
Comparing apples to oranges really no wonder the smoke.....Id' expect to see smoke comparing the two...
Dave, your logic is full of holes from over here. I can't even understand how you can compare the Lee Turret to the older turret machines.....and you're talking logic ?
Emotion, on the other hand ?........I have no connection to any particular name brand, I like several.....except much of the Lee stuff.
With the argument your making, and the way you support or defend the Lee Turret, it clearly sounds to me that there's a whole lotta love goin' on there, and your logic is skewed because of it.
Lee always has been the best advertisement of "what not to buy" for many years.........hey, if it "floats your boat", go for it.
I can afford better, and even if I couldn't, I wouldn't gamble what money I had on the poor reputation that Lee has had in the past, even if John Lee improved it when he took over. Like I said, they're a good budget minded product.
Also, on another note, Lee's warranty is a limited lifetime warranty, "limited" being the key word here.
Dillon has a no BS warranty, and that's exactly what it is.......after 23 years on my SDB, a quick call and instead of sending me the small roller I needed, they sent me the whole priming system. The same thing occurred with a powder measure years ago on another machine, and a small piece had broken......they send me the whole powder measure.
A call....that's all it took....no photos, no broken parts as proof.......nothing.
And, for what I put my machines through, and the number of rounds I load on them, they are entitled to break once in awhile............a Lee would never make it to a "second wind".
Neither will that wonder machine you're touting. It might be fine for the money, but to make it sound good, you're comparing it to equipment that isn't even in the same realm.
Can we humorously resurrect that washing machine comment ? No, never mind...........
That "500B" was a typo (don't have that 125wpm speed-but I'm not bad for a self taught typist though....on second thought, not a very manly thing to brag about Dave......
), the machine was a 550B, which will reload just about any caliber, pistol or rifle. The SDB loads only pistol, and has different dies, but it was self indexing, which was why I included it.
Regarding a comparison to the older style turrets..........well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue......
I feel Lee intended to market their Classic Turret in between the old turrets and the newer progressives, as it would make more sense that way.
But hey, if they want (or anyone else for that matter) to compare their machine to those older turrets....making themselves feel better.....go for it.....
Anyone even remotely experienced will easily see the difference.
FWIW......
Bob
RustyFN
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding of a progressive is if you get a completed round every time you pull the handle then it's a progressive. I guess another way to look at it is it will preform more than one function at a time. The way I see it is the Lee Classic Turret doesn't fall into that catagory so wouldn't it be considered a turret and not a progressive.
Rusty
Rusty
DaveInFloweryBranchGA
Member
"Dave........c'mon........honestly, they're a mile long rambling of opinions......okay, you have nothing against the other stuff "you say" in one post, but you've insulted the other brands and companies several times in comparison to the Lee's. Honestly, I get it...... "
Pretty much the same as your rambling, eh? Except mine are based on actual owning and using the Lee Classic turret press, not ten year old information about other presses.
"Bottom line.......you like your Lee and in your opinion, it's the best......I understand........I use to hear Lee commonly referred to as "pot metal junk".
Now back then I thought that was pretty harsh, but I could see the reasons for the name tag.
I fail to see what was said ten years ago related to other presses has to do with the Lee Classic turret.
John improved the company, okay......so he did, but that still doesn't bring it up to the quality level of the others necessarily. "
That's your opinion and others, who are voting with their money, disagree, myself included. Speaking of quality and a company you've mentioned many times:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14039&PN=1
"Not a big braggin' point there Dave........one reason why I didn't....I could well surpass that on my manual RL450 back in the day. Get your components ready and go to it.....when you're done, count the finished rounds.
I can run steady at 4 to 5 rounds per minute, and that's including a primer fill if the tubes are ready.
Anywhere from 240-300 rnds. per hour, and that was with a manual powder & primer system. I got so use to it, that I could run almost as fast as the auto systems. Not quite, but close. "
The rate I quoted was actual rounds made per hour aka production rounds per hour, not a loading rate per hour. I can make an actual 300 rounds in an hour with mine, but a solid and honest average most folks can get within a short time after they buy it, from start to finish, including setup, is 200 actual produced rounds including setup and takedown time, not loading rate,. So I still stand by the comparison.
"No Dave, but it seems you'll use terminologies to support your case when need be, and deny them, or blow them off, when they don't.
Kind of sounds like "arguing the ends against the middle". Besides, ever hear of marketing and market targeting when naming or packaging products ?
(One reason I made the washing machine comment.... humorous slam....)"
Again, since you're losing the argument, you're moving from making points about the press to attacking the opposition's argumentative style. No, Bob, you're losing the discussion or you wouldn't be doing that. This isn't a courtroom. It's a discussion forum and you're not my judge. Stick to the facts, offer counterpoints. Finding fault with how I offer points isn't supporting your arguement.
"Again, because you're comparing this Lee Turret against older non-automatically indexed machines......kind of a (again) no brainer there bud......
Comparing apples to oranges really no wonder the smoke.....Id' expect to see smoke comparing the two..."
Here I notice you've ignored where I discussed the Lee against the other presses you mentioned. You'd like to make the argument the Lee isn't a turret, but the manufacturer, who designed it, named it a turret and advertises it as one. It's actually an "updated turret." But I don't think you're open minded enough to see that.
"Dave, your logic is full of holes from over here. I can't even understand how you can compare the Lee Turret to the older turret machines.....and you're talking logic ?"
I'm not the one bringing up washing machines and talking about presses as if they were human beings.
"Emotion, on the other hand ?........I have no connection to any particular name brand, I like several.....except much of the Lee stuff.
With the argument your making, and the way you support or defend the Lee Turret, it clearly sounds to me that there's a whole lotta love goin' on there, and your logic is skewed because of it."
That's your opinion. I support it strongly because my test results says it's worth supporting. If something better comes along, I'll replce it with something better. But those old style turrets ain't it.
"Lee always has been the best advertisement of "what not to buy" for many years.........hey, if it "floats your boat", go for it.
I can afford better, and even if I couldn't, I wouldn't gamble what money I had on the poor reputation that Lee has had in the past, even if John Lee improved it when he took over. Like I said, they're a good budget minded product."
Again, you're living in the past and if you wanna do that, ok. But for the rest of us, we'll take the extremely competitive value.
"Also, on another note, Lee's warranty is a limited lifetime warranty, "limited" being the key word here.
Dillon has a no BS warranty, and that's exactly what it is.......after 23 years on my SDB, a quick call and instead of sending me the small roller I needed, they sent me the whole priming system. The same thing occurred with a powder measure years ago on another machine, and a small piece had broken......they send me the whole powder measure.
A call....that's all it took....no photos, no broken parts as proof.......nothing."
Well, you paid for it a couple three times when you bought it. Why shouldn't they send you a complete setup?
"And, for what I put my machines through, and the number of rounds I load on them, they are entitled to break once in awhile............a Lee would never make it to a "second wind". "
That's your opinion, with zero data or experience to back it up with. You don't own one, so you don't know. It's a new press and time will tell, but based on the number of rounds most folks got from the older style aluminum turrets, the new ones should hold up about the same as any other cast iron and steel product out there. It's more than sufficiently strong enough to reload every milsurp I own with boring ease.
"Neither will that wonder machine you're touting. It might be fine for the money, but to make it sound good, you're comparing it to equipment that isn't even in the same realm.
Can we humorously resurrect that washing machine comment ? No, never mind..........."
Now equipment is in various Realms? Well, can't argue with that kinda "logic."
"That "500B" was a typo (don't have that 125wpm speed-but I'm not bad for a self taught typist though....on second thought, not a very manly thing to brag about Dave...... ), the machine was a 550B, which will reload just about any caliber, pistol or rifle."
Not manly, eh? I'll tell my Dad you said that and see what he says. He types about that fast, he's a WWII Marine, Pearl Harbor to the occupation of Japan, including a nice relaxed stint on Guadalcanal early in the war.
The SDB loads only pistol, and has different dies, but it was self indexing, which was why I included it.
You did and I addressed it. Of course, I politely ignored the fact that many owners are out the expensive of a shipping it back to the factory for a rebuild every so often due to wear and tear. I suspect a rebuild for the Lee, if it ever needs one, will be ordering the little plastic doodad they use for worm screw lubrication and replacing it.
Regarding a comparison to the older style turrets..........well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue......
I feel Lee intended to market their Classic Turret in between the old turrets and the newer progressives, as it would make more sense that way.
But hey, if they want (or anyone else for that matter) to compare their machine to those older turrets....making themselves feel better.....go for it.....
The man who started the thread asked so he could make a purchase decision, hence the comparison, or lack of one. The Lee Classic turret smokes the old turrets. You keep wanting to make the comparison fair. I say it isn't about fairness, it's about making a purchase decision based on facts. Fact is, the Lee is a major leap forward in the design of turret presses.
Anyone even remotely experienced will easily see the difference.
Yep, that's why the Lee is the hot seller. Most folks would prefer to load 200 better quality rounds plus per hour and have a complete setup for less money than load 50 lesser quality rounds per hour for more money.
Ok, since you've switched from making points about the presses to an attempt to discredit myself and my posting methodology and thereby my argument, this is the last time I'll post to respond to you in this thread, as in my mind, when you did that, you knew you were losing the debate on discussion points and had to find some other way to attempt to "win."
After all, this isn't a court and I'm not a perp you're questioning trying to find some "flaw" in their story. If you had any further points to make, you would of made them. You haven't. You just recycled the same stuff over again, which makes sense, you're an ex-cop looking for an angle. Trouble is, this ain't court. Washing machines, comparing presses to old people, bringing up unrelated progressive presses that weren't asked about by the original poster that cost more and going off on side tangents isn't relavent to the original question asked.
The original question was wether or not to buy an old style Lyman T-mag Turret (Which I've owned.) kit or a new style Lee Classic turret (Which I also own, so I'm in a good position to compare the two.) kit. After having owned and used both, the answer remains the same. The Lee is 150 rounds per hour better (assuming one is good enough and has developed enough skill to squeeze 50 rounds per hour out of a Lyman T-mag.), is more fun to operate, easier to operate, provides excellent on press primer dispensing, case activated expansion/powder drop, a primer disposal system that keeps the press clean, isn't clunky to rotate the turret produces rounds with much less runout and is significantly less expensive. This adds up to a no brainer decision. The Lee Classic Turret smokes the Lyman T-mag.
And no bringing up of washing machines or Dillon progressives is going to change that.
BTW, you might want to have your buddy read the thread, so he can get his press adjusted and end the "quirckiness" due to improper adjustment. Machines, regardless of brand, have to be adjusted properly to run right. Of course, that's often ignored by owners of certain brands of presses, except when their machines are having primer feed and powder measure problems. Those couldn't be quirckiness though, those machines are too high quality for that.
Later,
Dave
Pretty much the same as your rambling, eh? Except mine are based on actual owning and using the Lee Classic turret press, not ten year old information about other presses.
"Bottom line.......you like your Lee and in your opinion, it's the best......I understand........I use to hear Lee commonly referred to as "pot metal junk".
Now back then I thought that was pretty harsh, but I could see the reasons for the name tag.
I fail to see what was said ten years ago related to other presses has to do with the Lee Classic turret.
John improved the company, okay......so he did, but that still doesn't bring it up to the quality level of the others necessarily. "
That's your opinion and others, who are voting with their money, disagree, myself included. Speaking of quality and a company you've mentioned many times:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14039&PN=1
"Not a big braggin' point there Dave........one reason why I didn't....I could well surpass that on my manual RL450 back in the day. Get your components ready and go to it.....when you're done, count the finished rounds.
I can run steady at 4 to 5 rounds per minute, and that's including a primer fill if the tubes are ready.
Anywhere from 240-300 rnds. per hour, and that was with a manual powder & primer system. I got so use to it, that I could run almost as fast as the auto systems. Not quite, but close. "
The rate I quoted was actual rounds made per hour aka production rounds per hour, not a loading rate per hour. I can make an actual 300 rounds in an hour with mine, but a solid and honest average most folks can get within a short time after they buy it, from start to finish, including setup, is 200 actual produced rounds including setup and takedown time, not loading rate,. So I still stand by the comparison.
"No Dave, but it seems you'll use terminologies to support your case when need be, and deny them, or blow them off, when they don't.
Kind of sounds like "arguing the ends against the middle". Besides, ever hear of marketing and market targeting when naming or packaging products ?
(One reason I made the washing machine comment.... humorous slam....)"
Again, since you're losing the argument, you're moving from making points about the press to attacking the opposition's argumentative style. No, Bob, you're losing the discussion or you wouldn't be doing that. This isn't a courtroom. It's a discussion forum and you're not my judge. Stick to the facts, offer counterpoints. Finding fault with how I offer points isn't supporting your arguement.
"Again, because you're comparing this Lee Turret against older non-automatically indexed machines......kind of a (again) no brainer there bud......
Comparing apples to oranges really no wonder the smoke.....Id' expect to see smoke comparing the two..."
Here I notice you've ignored where I discussed the Lee against the other presses you mentioned. You'd like to make the argument the Lee isn't a turret, but the manufacturer, who designed it, named it a turret and advertises it as one. It's actually an "updated turret." But I don't think you're open minded enough to see that.
"Dave, your logic is full of holes from over here. I can't even understand how you can compare the Lee Turret to the older turret machines.....and you're talking logic ?"
I'm not the one bringing up washing machines and talking about presses as if they were human beings.
"Emotion, on the other hand ?........I have no connection to any particular name brand, I like several.....except much of the Lee stuff.
With the argument your making, and the way you support or defend the Lee Turret, it clearly sounds to me that there's a whole lotta love goin' on there, and your logic is skewed because of it."
That's your opinion. I support it strongly because my test results says it's worth supporting. If something better comes along, I'll replce it with something better. But those old style turrets ain't it.
"Lee always has been the best advertisement of "what not to buy" for many years.........hey, if it "floats your boat", go for it.
I can afford better, and even if I couldn't, I wouldn't gamble what money I had on the poor reputation that Lee has had in the past, even if John Lee improved it when he took over. Like I said, they're a good budget minded product."
Again, you're living in the past and if you wanna do that, ok. But for the rest of us, we'll take the extremely competitive value.
"Also, on another note, Lee's warranty is a limited lifetime warranty, "limited" being the key word here.
Dillon has a no BS warranty, and that's exactly what it is.......after 23 years on my SDB, a quick call and instead of sending me the small roller I needed, they sent me the whole priming system. The same thing occurred with a powder measure years ago on another machine, and a small piece had broken......they send me the whole powder measure.
A call....that's all it took....no photos, no broken parts as proof.......nothing."
Well, you paid for it a couple three times when you bought it. Why shouldn't they send you a complete setup?
"And, for what I put my machines through, and the number of rounds I load on them, they are entitled to break once in awhile............a Lee would never make it to a "second wind". "
That's your opinion, with zero data or experience to back it up with. You don't own one, so you don't know. It's a new press and time will tell, but based on the number of rounds most folks got from the older style aluminum turrets, the new ones should hold up about the same as any other cast iron and steel product out there. It's more than sufficiently strong enough to reload every milsurp I own with boring ease.
"Neither will that wonder machine you're touting. It might be fine for the money, but to make it sound good, you're comparing it to equipment that isn't even in the same realm.
Can we humorously resurrect that washing machine comment ? No, never mind..........."
Now equipment is in various Realms? Well, can't argue with that kinda "logic."
"That "500B" was a typo (don't have that 125wpm speed-but I'm not bad for a self taught typist though....on second thought, not a very manly thing to brag about Dave...... ), the machine was a 550B, which will reload just about any caliber, pistol or rifle."
Not manly, eh? I'll tell my Dad you said that and see what he says. He types about that fast, he's a WWII Marine, Pearl Harbor to the occupation of Japan, including a nice relaxed stint on Guadalcanal early in the war.
The SDB loads only pistol, and has different dies, but it was self indexing, which was why I included it.
You did and I addressed it. Of course, I politely ignored the fact that many owners are out the expensive of a shipping it back to the factory for a rebuild every so often due to wear and tear. I suspect a rebuild for the Lee, if it ever needs one, will be ordering the little plastic doodad they use for worm screw lubrication and replacing it.
Regarding a comparison to the older style turrets..........well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue......
I feel Lee intended to market their Classic Turret in between the old turrets and the newer progressives, as it would make more sense that way.
But hey, if they want (or anyone else for that matter) to compare their machine to those older turrets....making themselves feel better.....go for it.....
The man who started the thread asked so he could make a purchase decision, hence the comparison, or lack of one. The Lee Classic turret smokes the old turrets. You keep wanting to make the comparison fair. I say it isn't about fairness, it's about making a purchase decision based on facts. Fact is, the Lee is a major leap forward in the design of turret presses.
Anyone even remotely experienced will easily see the difference.
Yep, that's why the Lee is the hot seller. Most folks would prefer to load 200 better quality rounds plus per hour and have a complete setup for less money than load 50 lesser quality rounds per hour for more money.
Ok, since you've switched from making points about the presses to an attempt to discredit myself and my posting methodology and thereby my argument, this is the last time I'll post to respond to you in this thread, as in my mind, when you did that, you knew you were losing the debate on discussion points and had to find some other way to attempt to "win."
After all, this isn't a court and I'm not a perp you're questioning trying to find some "flaw" in their story. If you had any further points to make, you would of made them. You haven't. You just recycled the same stuff over again, which makes sense, you're an ex-cop looking for an angle. Trouble is, this ain't court. Washing machines, comparing presses to old people, bringing up unrelated progressive presses that weren't asked about by the original poster that cost more and going off on side tangents isn't relavent to the original question asked.
The original question was wether or not to buy an old style Lyman T-mag Turret (Which I've owned.) kit or a new style Lee Classic turret (Which I also own, so I'm in a good position to compare the two.) kit. After having owned and used both, the answer remains the same. The Lee is 150 rounds per hour better (assuming one is good enough and has developed enough skill to squeeze 50 rounds per hour out of a Lyman T-mag.), is more fun to operate, easier to operate, provides excellent on press primer dispensing, case activated expansion/powder drop, a primer disposal system that keeps the press clean, isn't clunky to rotate the turret produces rounds with much less runout and is significantly less expensive. This adds up to a no brainer decision. The Lee Classic Turret smokes the Lyman T-mag.
And no bringing up of washing machines or Dillon progressives is going to change that.
BTW, you might want to have your buddy read the thread, so he can get his press adjusted and end the "quirckiness" due to improper adjustment. Machines, regardless of brand, have to be adjusted properly to run right. Of course, that's often ignored by owners of certain brands of presses, except when their machines are having primer feed and powder measure problems. Those couldn't be quirckiness though, those machines are too high quality for that.
Later,
Dave
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