Who cannot legally use HP, JHP ammo
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THE DARK KNIGHT
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Pistol? Rifle?
Not aware of any Police dept. NOT using HP ammo in handguns.
Military is prohibited from using HP by The HAGUE. NOT Geneva Convention.
Military uses "FMJ" bullets but modern military FMJs are not your typical target ammo. They have certain shapes, bi-metal cores, empty spaces, etc. inside of the bullet to produce fragmentation, yaw, etc.
Not aware of any Police dept. NOT using HP ammo in handguns.
Military is prohibited from using HP by The HAGUE. NOT Geneva Convention.
Military uses "FMJ" bullets but modern military FMJs are not your typical target ammo. They have certain shapes, bi-metal cores, empty spaces, etc. inside of the bullet to produce fragmentation, yaw, etc.
The US Military doesn't use HP, JHP, soft-point, etc., on account of the Hague Convention of 1899.
(I believe this only applies in conflicts between nations which have signed the convention; nevertheless, most choose to obey it in all conflicts)
Police generally avoid FMJ because it readily over-penetrates; I don't believe any law prohibits it, though.
(I believe this only applies in conflicts between nations which have signed the convention; nevertheless, most choose to obey it in all conflicts)
Police generally avoid FMJ because it readily over-penetrates; I don't believe any law prohibits it, though.
The US military does, however, use "open tip match ammunition" (ie. Sierra Match King type bullets) that should (more or less) perform like ball ammunition in flesh, but have an open tip design for accuracy purposes. JAG opinions have suggested that since those bullets aren't designed to expand and cause excessive damage, they are within the Hague Convention.
The military also uses hollow point (expanding) handgun ammunition for certain domestic LE duties as well.
RockyMtnTactical
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Police policy differs from dept to dept.
As for the military:
http://www.minutemanreview.com/2009/11/why-does-military-use-fmj-instead-of.html
As for the military:
http://www.minutemanreview.com/2009/11/why-does-military-use-fmj-instead-of.html
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The Bushmaster
Member
The County Sheriff here issues Federal Hydra-shok to the deputies...
AirForceShooter
Member
Anybody in New Jersey
AFS
AFS
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
No No No No No No No No No
I have no idea why everyone on the gun boards thinks JHP are illegal in NJ.
You can buy JHP/HP ammo here in NJ. Even stores like Dick's sell it.
Bohemus
Member
Same here, we cannot carry ammo with "higher wounding effect"...
Speedo66
Member
I'm a little confused. Are you talking about rifle or pistol ammo?
I'm a former NYS Peace Officer and I was warned against carrying HP pistol ammo as a civilian in NJ.
Is this not true?
NavyLCDR
member
Hollow point ammunition is perfectly legal in New Jersey. A person simply cannot carry with it for self defense off their own property:
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html
Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:
(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].
Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:
1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."
http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html
Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:
(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].
Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).
Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:
1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
Thank you, NavyLT.
sfc_mark
Member
Actually, the logic is a bit tortured on this one. The terminal performance of open tip match ammo is not like ball. The legal opinion was that since the match projectiles were designed primarily for accuracy and the expansion was just a nice bonus, it met the Laws of Land Warfare requirements which banned projectiles designed primarily to cause excessive damage.
This opinion seems more focused on a desired conclusion and less on right and wrong (or at least what has been the universally accepted position of all the signatories, including the U.S., for nearly 100 years).
I've seen a few other similarly (arguably) shady legal opinions from the JAG folks in the past couple of years.
NavyLT is spot on, however many law enforcement officers have the same OPINION of hp ammunition legality as those on this board. That makes following the law in NJ very perilous.
I 100% legally sold HP ammo for rifles, pistols and shotguns every day in NJ. I still had some law enforcement tell me it was illegal.
I 100% legally sold HP ammo for rifles, pistols and shotguns every day in NJ. I still had some law enforcement tell me it was illegal.
Speedo66
Member
OK, thanks for clearing that up.
Then the information given me was correct, as a retired NYS LEO I cannot carry JHP in NJ.
NJ was always a little strict when it came to off duty out of state LEOs carrying at all before the Federal law passed. Brother officers who worked in NYC cringed going home across the George Washington Bridge and up the Palisades Pkwy towards Rockland County NY. Getting stopped meant possibly being arrested. Not that NYS was any better.
Bugflipper
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DOD still uses fmj 9mm on the base I work. Can't have one in the chamber either.
Hague Convention signatory sounds great, but the real reason modern armies use FMJ is because they are much cheaper and feed more reliably during automatic fire. The velocities of military FMJ rifle rounds also do enough damage without needing to open-up. Also better-defeats body armor.
US Army findings after Vietnam came to the conclusion that it took ~15K bullets fired to cause one casualty. (WWII was ~10K I think). That's a lot of wasted bullets.
US Army findings after Vietnam came to the conclusion that it took ~15K bullets fired to cause one casualty. (WWII was ~10K I think). That's a lot of wasted bullets.
Full Metal Jacket
member
federal EMJ.
made for markets where jhp's are not legal.
i think these are MA & NJ. might be wrong though.
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
You are wrong. We can own JHP's in NJ. The law has been quoted in this thread.
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