Who do you believe. Speer, Lyman, Lee etc. 45ACP and HP-38

[Rule3]

I usually load lead bullets and use 5.5 Hp 38/Win 231 with a 230gr LRN.

Dug up some 230gr FMJ in the garage and looked in my manuals.

Speer lists 5.6 to 6.2 grs HP 38/ w-231

Lyman lists 5.2 to 5.8

and Lee which is just Hodgdons data but for a Hornady FN bullet at:

4.2-5.3grs.

Now I can not believe there is that much difference in a 230gr FMJ 45 Auto bullet to warrant such a difference in powder charge??

I know this subject has probably been beat to death and many Lawyers involved but it's just not this most common load, it holds for basic 9 and 40 SW loads also.:banghead:

So do I add them all up, take the average and divide by the square root?

 

[Jim Watson]

You can probably justify the Speer - Lyman spread based on the usual suspects of different test setups and different lot numbers of components.

The Hodgdon/Lee load is based for some weird reason on the Hornady flatpoint which is seated much deeper in the case, at least .050" difference in OAL, and will get up to pressure with a lighter load.

Me?
I go by what my chronograph says. If I can get up to Major Power Factor for competition, I am usually happy. If I can get up to factory spec without exceeding somebody's maximum, I am happy the rest of the time..

 

[loadedround]

Whenever I run into a situation like this for a new bullet(although I've never used the Lee manual), I always take the lower of the two starting loads to start and work up from there. I increase my powder weights a 1/2 grain at a time watch carefully for any pressure signs and stop when I experience one. There are just too many parameters in bullet construction, powder lots, primers, and other factors to have all the manuals list the same starting/maximum loads. God gave us the ability to think and that's what is required here.

 

[wilkersk]

If you read the small print, all the reloading manuals and data from powder manufacturers have long disclaimers about how their results was acheived using this or that and that the reloader should always start with the minium recommended loads and work up.

The results I get with my set up is never exactly what it published in the reloading manuals I use. But, the published starting loads have never been unsafe, and have been proven to be a good place to start.

 

[Steve C]

I think many reloaders make an ASSUMPTION that the manuals develop a load to a maximum or near maximum SAAMI pressure and nothing could be further from the truth. As most manuals and data seldom publish pressures its impossible to tell what levels they are at. You can do some educated guessing from looking at the few manuals that do list the pressures of their loads.

Manuals from specific bullet manufacturers list loads for their bullets that optimize accuracy and speed in their bullet while staying below standardized maximum pressures. Maximum loads are often the level where increases produce erratic pressure results and poor accuracy, the only thing the publisher will usually say is that this load is below maximum SAAMI.

Data from the powder companies even though they may specify a particular bullet are more generic and applicable to different makes of bullets of the same weight. They are generally lower in charge weight to provide a broader safe and useful application.

One shouldn't think of reloading data as a recipe like you find in a cook book to make cookies. Reloading data is a guide to load development that relies on hand loaders being somewhat knowledgeable regarding the safety, process and procedures of the hobby.

FWIW I have loaded 200gr LSWC and 230gr FMJ's on top of 5.5grs of W231. Both these loads chronographed at around 800 fps (812 and 795 respectively) from a 1911 Government 5" barrel.

 

[ants]

Why do published tables vary?

Because there are dozens of different variables to be held constant for each lab test, and each manufacturer chooses different values for the constants.

Constants include environmental conditions, type of equipment (copper crusher, strain gauge, or transducer -- yes, they still employ all three), sample size, bullet size and type, primer, case type and volume, overall length, chamber dimensions, barrel length, rate of twist, and so forth.

So why do the tables vary? Because they don't necessarily select the same variables, and (as we all know) components change from production run to production run, and thus from year to year. Also, as we all know from shooting across a chronograph, the sample mean and standard deviation depends upon the specific data from that particular string at that time on that day, and can vary from string to string even if you try to hold as many conditions constant as possible.

Don't forget that they typically use a "universal receiver". It isn't even a gun. It's a block of steel cut to accept different chamber and barrel inserts for different cartridges. It is mounted permanently to a bench and fired electrically or pneumatically. The gauges are mounted onto the block of steel, with leads to the computers doing the tabulation. There aren't sights, or triggers, or stocks, or anything. And you wonder why their data differs from your own?

 

[Rule3]

Because there are dozens of different variables to be held constant for each lab test, and each manufacturer chooses different values for the constants.

Constants include environmental conditions, type of equipment (copper crusher, strain gauge, or transducer -- yes, they still employ all three), sample size, bullet size and type, primer, case type and volume, overall length, chamber dimensions, barrel length, rate of twist, and so forth.

So why do the tables vary? Because they don't necessarily select the same variables, and (as we all know) components change from production run to production run, and thus from year to year. Also, as we all know from shooting across a chronograph, the sample mean and standard deviation depends upon the specific data from that particular string at that time on that day, and can vary from string to string even if you try to hold as many conditions constant as possible.

Don't forget that they typically use a "universal receiver". It isn't even a gun. It's a block of steel cut to accept different chamber and barrel inserts for different cartridges. It is mounted permanently to a bench and fired electrically or pneumatically. The gauges are mounted onto the block of steel, with leads to the computers doing the tabulation. There aren't sights, or triggers, or stocks, or anything. And you wonder why their data differs from your own?

Very well explained. I agree completely. The end results as to FPS may vary. What is confusing is that one can use the listed powder charges if one uses say the the listed Speer bullet. What then if you use a Rem or Win bullet of the same weight and design? I would think there is not that much difference in their bullet vs the Speer. Of course not every bullet make can be tested but if one looks at the Speer manual they would use that powder weight, if one looks at Lyman they would use that info. I usually just end up in the middle range.

 

[Beelzy]

Go with the load data that corresponds with the bullet maker.

 

[Maj Dad]

Sometimes you have to take all the information if front of you & and decide based on your experience and knowledge base. If you are a neophyte & have little or none, you have to start with the lowest and work up. I have used some manuals for years, only to find some new manual with loads much lower, and have to reconcile why I didn't get blown up. There is a place for wisdom here, as with every discipline, and one must use it as it is acquired. You can study proper form and function until you're blue in the face, but at some point you have to jump off the diving board. Just be sure you have studied.

 

[Rule3]

Go with the load data that corresponds with the bullet maker.

That is pretty much the basis for this discussion. Easier said than done. There are very few specific load data for each type/brand of bullet. Even more difficult when using lead bullets or plated as there are so many vendors.
Unless you use the two major brands that also publish manuals, Speer, Hornady you are pretty much on your own as Major Dad explains above.

 

[NotSoFast]

I pretty much agree with Maj Dad above.

When I first started, I took the starting loads from Hornady, Hodgedon, Speer, and Lyman and averaged them for a fair starting load. I also did the same with the Max load. That way I was never starting with the lowest starting load nor ending with the highest max load. And with my use of generic bullets (Montana Gold) it has worked out well so far.

Eventually, though, I have settled on a favorite load from one of those manuals and make it my go-to load unless I am loading an unusual powder or bullet.

Also, for surplus military rifle loads, Hornady can't be beat. They have the most comprehensive listing of loads, even for the slightly unusual rifles, like the Swiss K-31.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, there are a lot of variants which will account for the different charge weights listed in the various manuals. OAL is probably the biggest of them all.

FWIW, I charge 5.5gr W231/HP-38 under both a lead and jacketed 230gr bullet with an OAL of between 1.250" and 1.270" depending upon the bullet profile. Most times my OAL is 1.260" and that works well in my Springfield 1911A1.

 

[sig220mw]

ants reply was a good one. I called hodgdon once about their manual. I have the no 26 edition. I asked them why they didn't list bullet types and was told that their data was compiled using the "worst bullet in that caliber" scenario and that because of that I could expect at least or similar performance to that listed.

What ants said about environmental conditions is something that comes in to play also. Was it a hot day or a cool day? What about the seal level of the area. In higher elevations the air is thinner while thicker in lower. That's why you start low and pay attention to the condition of your brass after firing.

 

[918v]

Hornady FMJ FN bullets are loaded to a shorter OAL which explains the lower max charge weight.

231 varies in burning rate depending on lot or vintage. Could be Speer had a slower lot than Lyman.

 

[germ]

...That's why you start low and pay attention to the condition of your brass after firing.

I'm sure I've read numerous times that, for handgun loads you could easily get into an over pressure situation before the brass shows any signs. True? So all we really have to go by is published data, especially us newer folks. Those fortune enough to have a chrono also have that as a possible indicator.

One thing I think would be interesting to see, is a chart of pressures and velocities with a selection of various popular powders (bullseye, 231, unique?), where the only other variable is the OAL in decrements of .005 or .010 (well, perhaps also done in low, med, and high charges). Both in high pressure cartridges like 9mm or 40 and low pressure like 45acp or 38 special. Maybe this is already available but I'm unaware? Maybe such things aren't published because too many knuckleheads would make very wrong assumptions based on such data.