Barbaroja
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I used the old 10/22 for all of my other animals pigs, sheep etc. this was the first time for me butchering a cow so I decided to make sure I got it right the first time.
Who doesn't have a chronograph?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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One time, as a inquisitive kid(nosy
),I asked the guy if he ate beef. He said he only ate lamb.
Chuck R.
Member
OK, I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate about this.
But just looking at Nolser and
Shot timers are also handy when it comes to defensive shooting when working on improving. When combined with accuracy you can establish a baseline, then track improvement. A lot of the better defensive drills have a time component to them for a reason. I've been amazed in some of the shooting classes watching shooters that hadn't worked with a timer. Usually they were:
Slow as chit
Went to pieces accuracy-wise rushing because they didn't work on speed while practicing.
JFrank
Member
Chuck R.
Member
So, who's your pal "Stan"?
Nosler for instance lists their test barrels with the load data:
https://www.nosler.com/30-06-springfield
6.5C: PacNor 24"
.270 Win: PacNor 26"
.308Win: HS Precision 24"
.300WM: Lija 24"
30-06: Lija 24"
So, it looks like for Nolser alone "Stan" represents 3 different barrel makers. And your saying that the listed barrel makers are equal to common OEM barrels?
Hodgdon doesn't list their barrel makes, but they do list their lengths. For .308 Win, they use a 24" tube, pretty common on hunting rifles right? Even their .30 carbine data was shot from a 20" tube, lots of them around...right? How about a .358 Winchester with a 26" barrel, popular woods gun in these parts.
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
A quick Google search for pressure and accuracy test barrels show's multiple barrel makers. HS Precision even has options for accuracy and velocity barrels:
https://hsprecision.com/ballistic-test-equipment/ballistic-test-barrels/
https://www.wisemanballistics.com/products/
https://www.lothar-walther.com/test-barrels/
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JFrank
Member
Stan Taylor at Douglas barrels told me they donate a lot of barrels to several companies. Their best are air gaged nothing earth shattering beyond that. I suppose I could ask Carson Lilja if any special attention is given to the barrels he sends to companies, he is a range mate of mine. That would be the limit of my contacts with the many barrel manufactures out there. I can’t speak for them.
Seedy Character
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I don't have a crony. Have been reloading almost 50 years.
Never had a range where I set up a chrony, so why have one? Not against them, but can't use.
Don't have a range over 300 yards, why have a 1000 yard rifle?
Equipment is needed based. I can't USE a chrony, therefore I don't NEED. Though, I wish I could.
The actual velocity isn't that important to ne. My reloads are because I can't get the bullet or loading a want. Duplicating factory isn't a concern. My load is what is most accurate. The book stated velocity is good enough and most likely faster than actual.
Once the loud is developed and sights set, a chrony would not used.
Never had a range where I set up a chrony, so why have one? Not against them, but can't use.
Don't have a range over 300 yards, why have a 1000 yard rifle?
Equipment is needed based. I can't USE a chrony, therefore I don't NEED. Though, I wish I could.
The actual velocity isn't that important to ne. My reloads are because I can't get the bullet or loading a want. Duplicating factory isn't a concern. My load is what is most accurate. The book stated velocity is good enough and most likely faster than actual.
Once the loud is developed and sights set, a chrony would not used.
Chuck R.
Member
I don't know if you'd agree, but I'd consider Douglas a step above a standard barrel.
I don't think they make "special" barrels for testing, I just don't think the companies supply the barrels are are par with what the average rifle company manufactures. On average my custom barrels; PacNor, Douglas, Bartlein, Kreiger are faster than their OEM counterparts. Then there's the length issue. I mean, why in the world would anybody use a 26" test barrel on a .358 Win or 20" for .30 carbine?? Guys can do the rough math and estimate the velocity loss.
It really is just one more argument to get a chrono.
LaneP
Member
Though not necessarily essential, they are a great means of validating load data, if that is your thing. That said, I've owned 3 over the years and bought my first in 1989.
Without a chronograph, I would have not made some very interesting discoveries, including that my 6" bbl Security Six generates higher velocities with identical ammunition than my 7" bbl 686. Much higher in some cases.
Without a chronograph, I would have not made some very interesting discoveries, including that my 6" bbl Security Six generates higher velocities with identical ammunition than my 7" bbl 686. Much higher in some cases.
Mark_Mark
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I shot my 1st cronies on day one. Got laughed at, I still think about it, range buddies are mean
JFrank
Member
Very cool , thanks for sharing. HS has a high dollar test barrels.
Chuck R.
Member
I was surprised that there's that many companies making them. I guess they burn them out regularly and the longer barrels get cut down when rechambering.
JFrank
Member
So here’s a question, who’s suppling the recievers? Are these company owned or some private/ employee owned ?
( and how to tie into the thread topic) lol
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Chuck R.
Member
Based on limited research, it appears they use "universal receivers":
Universal Receivers
Bill Wiseman and Co., manufactures the industry standard universal receiver system used by most all of the civilian and military firearms testing labs. Individual receivers can be purchased and mounted by the customers to the customers’ own mounting system, or complete systems are available that include the receiver, mounting system and raceways.
Table
A firing table is available through Bill Wiseman & Company that will adjust to different heights using a 110v AC powered hydraulic system. The motor for the unit is also available in 220v/50hz for overseas customers requiring it. It is on wheels so it can be moved easily. This table will hold the Bill Wiseman Universal Receiver Unit.
Windage and Elevation Adjustment
A windage and elevation adjustment piece is available that can attach to an existing firing bench or be used with the firing table listed above
Looking at a couple sites, it looks like the companies make test barrels to fit the universal receivers, their images of test barrels all look similar with pre-drilled ports for pressure sensors. I imagine it's all a quick change sort of thing.
daniel craig
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I don't. Mostly because I'm at the rookie stage of reloading where if it shoots accurately for me out to a chosen amount of yards that's all I really care about.
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Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I have a PSA upper in 6.5 Grendel on order. When it arrives, I'll chronograph a box of Hornady factory ammo (123 gr ELDM) to get a sense of the speed of the barrel. Hornady publishes a MV of 2,580 fps, but that's not from a gas gun. I want to know how it does in my AR. I'll be happy if they hit 2,450 out of a 20-inch barrel. That should give me some idea of how my loads should compare to published data. The difference between 2,450 and 2,580 translates into 8 more inches of drop at 500 yards all else being equal.
I did the same with my Bergara in 6.5 PRC, and discovered that my barrel generated velocities higher than book with the factory load. That's a useful thing to know as I work up my own loads.
I did the same with my Bergara in 6.5 PRC, and discovered that my barrel generated velocities higher than book with the factory load. That's a useful thing to know as I work up my own loads.
Archie
Member
Loaded for about 19 years without one. A rather friendly fellow I met at a membership range offered to let me shoot my modified (before my ownership) M94 Swede and chronograph it. I found the actual velocity to be about 200 fps less than predicted in the manual and expected by your humble servant.
I bought a Chrony chronograph.
Since then, I have had two more Chronys, a CED (M-2 I think) chronograph, a Labradar, and currently a Caldwell chronograph. I shot two, one worked fine but required replacement 'sensors' rather often, one worked until it didn't.
My main reason for using a chronograph is most likely my obsessive nature. I really want to know about 'things'. And as previously mentioned (cfullgraf) I test military rifles (I collect WWI rifles) to see what they produced with issue ammunition. Part of my plan is to be able to compare the effectiveness of the rifles as they were. And - as I mentioned before - I just want to know.
I see a number of reasons people do not have them. Not being able to use one is quite compelling. Happily, my current club is not a problem in this regard.
As far as published (manual) date being chronographed goes: Remembering my Marine Corps days, I was taught the muzzle velocity of the M-14 rifle was "2800 fps, sir!" (Not going to argue that was exactly correct or not, but that was the advertised velocity.) Manuals show for 2800 fps with 150 (147 grain according to U. S. Army small arms cartridge manual) grain bullet:
(These are not all the loadings shown in the manuals; they are the same weight bullets and the same powders.)
Hornady # 11:
IMR 4895 - 44.7 grains (max load)
VIHT N 140 - 47.2 grains (max load)
CFE 223 - 49.6 grains (max load)
Lyman # 50:
IMR 4895 - 45.0 grains (max load) (2777 fps)
N 140 - 46.2 grains (max load) (2795 fps)
Sierra Sixth:
IMR 4895 - 46.0 grains (max load) (2850 fps)
N 140 - 45.5 grains (max load) (2750 fps)
CFE 223 - 48.2 grains (under max) (2850 fps)
Speer # 14:
IMR 4895 - 45.0 grains (max load)
That's enough. I have some others, but this will do and have had enough secretarial work for today.
One notes there is NO perfectly consistent agreement with loading data. There is a certain similarity in the values, but not identical results. Which means if the results coincide exactly with one set of data, it differs from all the rest. This disparity of data confuses some. When they realize the information was derived from different arms, using likely different lots of components, on different days, ad nauseam, one finds the variations to be rather expected.
However, this is only a general idea. Certainly not what is to be consistently delivered from one's own arm.
As I said, I am a bit obsessive about these things. For those who aren't so obsessive and are well served and satisfied with their current status, I am delighted. No else one needs to be as obsessed as I, nor do I need to be as lackadaisical as anyone else.
I bought a Chrony chronograph.
Since then, I have had two more Chronys, a CED (M-2 I think) chronograph, a Labradar, and currently a Caldwell chronograph. I shot two, one worked fine but required replacement 'sensors' rather often, one worked until it didn't.
My main reason for using a chronograph is most likely my obsessive nature. I really want to know about 'things'. And as previously mentioned (cfullgraf) I test military rifles (I collect WWI rifles) to see what they produced with issue ammunition. Part of my plan is to be able to compare the effectiveness of the rifles as they were. And - as I mentioned before - I just want to know.
I see a number of reasons people do not have them. Not being able to use one is quite compelling. Happily, my current club is not a problem in this regard.
As far as published (manual) date being chronographed goes: Remembering my Marine Corps days, I was taught the muzzle velocity of the M-14 rifle was "2800 fps, sir!" (Not going to argue that was exactly correct or not, but that was the advertised velocity.) Manuals show for 2800 fps with 150 (147 grain according to U. S. Army small arms cartridge manual) grain bullet:
(These are not all the loadings shown in the manuals; they are the same weight bullets and the same powders.)
Hornady # 11:
IMR 4895 - 44.7 grains (max load)
VIHT N 140 - 47.2 grains (max load)
CFE 223 - 49.6 grains (max load)
Lyman # 50:
IMR 4895 - 45.0 grains (max load) (2777 fps)
N 140 - 46.2 grains (max load) (2795 fps)
Sierra Sixth:
IMR 4895 - 46.0 grains (max load) (2850 fps)
N 140 - 45.5 grains (max load) (2750 fps)
CFE 223 - 48.2 grains (under max) (2850 fps)
Speer # 14:
IMR 4895 - 45.0 grains (max load)
That's enough. I have some others, but this will do and have had enough secretarial work for today.
One notes there is NO perfectly consistent agreement with loading data. There is a certain similarity in the values, but not identical results. Which means if the results coincide exactly with one set of data, it differs from all the rest. This disparity of data confuses some. When they realize the information was derived from different arms, using likely different lots of components, on different days, ad nauseam, one finds the variations to be rather expected.
However, this is only a general idea. Certainly not what is to be consistently delivered from one's own arm.
As I said, I am a bit obsessive about these things. For those who aren't so obsessive and are well served and satisfied with their current status, I am delighted. No else one needs to be as obsessed as I, nor do I need to be as lackadaisical as anyone else.
With the powder charge, I have only one rifle that produced velocities the same, within experimental error, as the loading manual's published velocity.
Velocities from my Colt Match Target matched the velocities for service rifles from the Sierra manual from the 1990's that I was using at the time. It was uncanny. I was using the same powder and bullet, but not case, as listed in the data.
But wait, Sierra was using the same model rifle, a Colt Match Target. Yes, different rifles of the same make and model will be different to a point, but probably less than rifles of different make and model.
No other firearm that I have has ever matched the published velocity so closely.
A few years later, I got a Compass Lake Match Service Rifle AR-15 and the loads I was using in the Colt ran 200 fps faster in the Compass Lake.
Note, both the Colt Match Target and the Compass Lake are 20" barrel A2 configuration.
Velocities from my Colt Match Target matched the velocities for service rifles from the Sierra manual from the 1990's that I was using at the time. It was uncanny. I was using the same powder and bullet, but not case, as listed in the data.
But wait, Sierra was using the same model rifle, a Colt Match Target. Yes, different rifles of the same make and model will be different to a point, but probably less than rifles of different make and model.
No other firearm that I have has ever matched the published velocity so closely.
A few years later, I got a Compass Lake Match Service Rifle AR-15 and the loads I was using in the Colt ran 200 fps faster in the Compass Lake.
Note, both the Colt Match Target and the Compass Lake are 20" barrel A2 configuration.
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halfmoonclip
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A late buddy and I bought an Oehler years ago. It worked well, but setting it up (indoors especially) was a PITA. Still, it was useful for (mostly handgun) load development, and determining load consistency.
Used it as needed for many years; finally shot the skyscreens with an optically sighted carbine (the height above the bore axis...) Oehler was great for available replacement parts, but finally asked for a Labradar for Christmas.
Really easy setup, everything fits in a computer case, and nothing has to be downrange. Yeah, they aren't cheap, but the ease of use makes it more likely it will actually be used.
If you can afford it, a Labradar is a really handy thing to have.
Moon
Used it as needed for many years; finally shot the skyscreens with an optically sighted carbine (the height above the bore axis...) Oehler was great for available replacement parts, but finally asked for a Labradar for Christmas.
Really easy setup, everything fits in a computer case, and nothing has to be downrange. Yeah, they aren't cheap, but the ease of use makes it more likely it will actually be used.
If you can afford it, a Labradar is a really handy thing to have.
Moon
Zendude
Member
No chrono, but I only shoot my handgun reloads at an indoor range. Maybe the range would let me set up a chrono when it’s not busy. But, I doubt if it would make me change any of my loads.
Chuck R.
Member
I went the same way. Used my Oehler 35P for what seemed like forever, great unit. Finally the printer died and Oehler changed it out for a minimum fee.
Now I'm a Labradar guy. The setup is just too easy and the spreadsheets are great to work with. I now keep all my OCW sheets and chrono sheets as tabs on a single spreadsheet per gun.
Mark_Mark
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Spread sheets and data base. Man, what happened to just pop off a few rounds at a jug of water
Chuck R.
Member
It all really started when they sent me to the initial DMR training for SRT ( I was an enlisted MP), then it just got worse when they sent me to the Field Artillery Officers Basic Course (got out, went to school, came back in commissioned). I've had the "5 requirements for accurate predicted fire" drilled into my head for years! Every time we live fired, we chronographed guns. Each gun had a log book to record data, once we had base lines established, MV deltas by powder lot could be "inferred" across tubes.
1st round hits at distance, just don't "happen". Well sometimes they do, so maybe I should say repeatable 1st round hits just don't happen
Before all of that I hunted woodchucks in upstate NY. Shooting distance has always been a thing for me. I've competed in silhouette, buffalo gong shoots and 800, 900& 1000. My "backyard range" goes out to 760 yds.
What's usually missing in these discussion is the context of what the shooter/reloader is trying to achieve. We all don't have the same requirements, expectations etc. Guys used to call it the difference between a "Reloader" and a "Handloader".
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