Who doesn't have a chronograph?

[HowieG]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic. There are lots of practical reasons to cast bullets -- many of which have to do with the pursuit of achieving an accurate load. I don't see your parallel.

You just kind of proved his point.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Ok who has shot there crony

then then

 

[Highland Lofts]

I bought a used one a year or so ago.
For the shooting I do I really don't see any use for it. I bought a bunch of other stuff and got a really good deal on it.
Where I shoot eighty-five yards is the farthest I can shoot.
I stay with in the parameters og the load data, and I am happy with what I get for accuracy.

 

[Mark_Mark]

fyi… buy your chono from Amazon

sold by: Amazon
shiped by: Amazon

not a 3P seller

Then you have 90 days to shoot your chrono. Happened to me!

reson for return: Stop Working

 

[mcb]

Uses of a chronograph.

1) Good validation that your reloading process is replicating the published load through comparison of publish velocity to measured velocities (with reasonable considerations given for barrel length and variations in different firearms)

2) Many competitive shooting sports, in particular the family of practice shooting sports like USPSA and 3-gun have minimum power factor requirements. A chronograph is needed to measure that and ensure you meet the requirements of the competition. Other sports have velocity limits etc.

3) For long range shooters an accurate measure of muzzle velocity is need (along with an accurate ballistic-coefficient or drag-model) to accurately predict the trajectory over longer ranges for making adjustments to aim for different distances.

4) If your more daring the combination of a chronograph and software like Quickloads or GRT you can, with great care and diligence, venture outside of published data. Not all cartridges have the wealth of reloading data more popular cartridges do.

5) If your loading subsonic ammo for suppressed firearms getting a velocity as close to without exceeding ~1050 fps is desired to maximize terminal effects while minimizing acoustic signature.

6) Curious...

I am sure there are several other good reasons for owning a chronograph but these are the ones that made me buy one.

 

[Tallinar]

You just kind of proved his point.

Maybe I am dense, but I am still not following.

I'm not seeing how casting bullets parallels to owning a chronograph. Sometimes casting your own bullets is going to be the only way to achieve accuracy with a particular gun (e.g. oversized grooves or chamber throats). How does this parallel with using a chronograph? When does practical accuracy demand that you understand your muzzle velocity? I understand that velocity data can be used to calculate a bullet drop chart, but bullet drop can also be discovered the old fashioned way by actually shooting at targets at the ranges you're interested in understanding, and recording your results and necessary sight adjustments.

I'm not saying a chronograph has no use, but I can't see promoting it as a tool necessary to becoming a "serious" shooter/reloader. Plenty of serious marksmen have lived and died who never had access to a chronograph. That's all.

 

[illinoisburt]

If your doing drop charts for a hunting rifle, chrono is pretty darn handy.

Not disagreeing, but that's only to get ballpark. Until you actually shoot it and fine tune I would not go by them for actual field use.

Over time I've found a good range finder is much more useful than a chronograph. I used to be somewhat obsessed with chronographs, mostly for archery. The numbers were always horribly inflated once you set draw length and used a full weight arrow. After a few years it dawned on me that the numbers didn't matter all that much. Every once in a while I will set up and check something out of curiosity (last time was a new airgun which surprising enough was pretty close to the manufacturer claims). I found most of my rifle loads are not near max for best accuracy and I load handgun enough for function/comfortable shooting rather than worrying about power factors so actual velocity hasn't been that important.

 

[HowieG]

The reasons I originally bought a chrono for back in the 90's are NOT the reasons I have one right now.

What it does for me right now, is it allows me to put together a 10 round ladder, increasing the powder 0.2 grains a shot, and gather data that allows me to see nodes (flat spots) if any. I combine that with how the 10 round group looks on target (100 yards). If the group is clustered up under an inch and a half, and there are nodes in the velocity range I am looking for, then I can load for a series to 5 round groups to evaluate that node.

If there aren't good nodes, or if the 10 round cluster is scattered out over 2 or 3 inches,, I bag the whole thing and try something else with only 10 rounds expended. It saves me a ton of powder and primers and bullets in a time when they are all expensive and hard to find.

 

[HowieG]

Maybe I am dense, but I am still not following.

I'm not seeing how casting bullets parallels to owning a chronograph. Sometimes casting your own bullets is going to be the only way to achieve accuracy with a particular gun (e.g. oversized grooves or chamber throats). How does this parallel with using a chronograph? When does practical accuracy demand that you understand your muzzle velocity? I understand that velocity data can be used to calculate a bullet drop chart, but bullet drop can also be discovered the old fashioned way by actually shooting at targets at the ranges you're interested in understanding, and recording your results and necessary sight adjustments.

I'm not saying a chronograph has no use, but I can't see promoting it as a tool necessary to becoming a "serious" shooter/reloader. Plenty of serious marksmen have lived and died who never had access to a chronograph. That's all.

Let me see if I can 'splain it to you.

You probably didn't start casting bullets KNOWING that you could do it better than the bullet companies. You probably did it anyway, just because. Then you came up with reasons afterwards. A chrono is like that. You buy it just because, and then it turns out that it is pretty neat and helps you.

Sure, you can do it the old fashioned way. I used to because the old fashioned way was the ONLY way. Unfortunately, you can burn up a large amount of components doing that. I can get to where you get only with way less money sent down range and way less time spent.

 

[Tallinar]

Let me see if I can 'splain it to you.

You probably didn't start casting bullets KNOWING that you could do it better than the bullet companies. You probably did it anyway, just because. Then you came up with reasons afterwards. A chrono is like that. You buy it just because, and then it turns out that it is pretty neat and helps you.

Sure, you can do it the old fashioned way. I used to because the old fashioned way was the ONLY way. Unfortunately, you can burn up a large amount of components doing that. I can get to where you get only with way less money sent down range and way less time spent.

I'm trackin' now. That makes sense. Thanks!

My only personal foray into bullet casting was when I had a super stubborn Super Blackhawk with oversized throats, and I was desperate after trying everything else! But I can see that other people start it just for the fun of it.

 

[mcb]

Maybe I am dense, but I am still not following.

I'm not seeing how casting bullets parallels to owning a chronograph. Sometimes casting your own bullets is going to be the only way to achieve accuracy with a particular gun (e.g. oversized grooves or chamber throats). How does this parallel with using a chronograph? When does practical accuracy demand that you understand your muzzle velocity? I understand that velocity data can be used to calculate a bullet drop chart, but bullet drop can also be discovered the old fashioned way by actually shooting at targets at the ranges you're interested in understanding, and recording your results and necessary sight adjustments.

I'm not saying a chronograph has no use, but I can't see promoting it as a tool necessary to becoming a "serious" shooter/reloader. Plenty of serious marksmen have lived and died who never had access to a chronograph. That's all.

A decent chronograph is cheaper than a set of good dies. You certainly do not need one is many cases, but there are lots of cases where that information is useful and easier than other methods, see my previous post in this thread. They are a cheap and useful tool, adding it to all the other tools on your reloading bench is not an unreasonable addition.

Not disagreeing, but that's only to get ballpark. Until you actually shoot it and fine tune I would not go by them for actual field use.

Over time I've found a good range finder is much more useful than a chronograph. I used to be somewhat obsessed with chronographs, mostly for archery. The numbers were always horribly inflated once you set draw length and used a full weight arrow. After a few years it dawned on me that the numbers didn't matter all that much. Every once in a while I will set up and check something out of curiosity (last time was a new airgun which surprising enough was pretty close to the manufacturer claims). I found most of my rifle loads are not near max for best accuracy and I load handgun enough for function/comfortable shooting rather than worrying about power factors so actual velocity hasn't been that important.

If you have a good data on your bullet and good muzzle velocity you don't need to validate it, though that is a good idea.

I setup my PRS chassis gun, measure my muzzle velocity, inputted an accurate BC from the bullet manufacture, along with a few measurements from my rifle (ie scope over bore height etc) into a ballistic program (Strelok Pro in my case) and then shot a 200 yard zero. I went to my first match and dialed and got first shot hits from 300 yards out to 1000 yards based on that data with no corrections. I have done similar with my NRL22 rifle for NRL22 matches. Validation is always nice but if you're careful and start with good data including muzzle velocity you can do a lot with modern ballistic software.

 

[HowieG]

I'm trackin' now. That makes sense. Thanks!

My only personal foray into bullet casting was when I had a super stubborn Super Blackhawk with oversized throats, and I was desperate after trying everything else! But I can see that other people start it just for the fun of it.

I thought about doing it many times for my 32-20. I figured it would probably cost me a couple of hundred bucks to get started. Then there is always a learning curve. I asked myself whether I REALLY thought I could do it better than the bullet companies could? The answer to this point is no, because there are a lot of small bullet companies casting some mighty good bullets. I get closer to doing it every time I have that conversation though. Just because.

 

[HowieG]

Uses of a chronograph.

1) Good validation that your reloading process is replicating the published load through comparison of publish velocity to measured velocities (with reasonable considerations given for barrel length and variation different firearms)

2) Many competitive shooting sports, in particular the family of practice shooting sports like USPSA and 3-gun have minimum power factor requirements. A chronograph is needed to measure that and ensure you meet requirement of competition. Other sports have velocity limits etc.

3) For long range shooters an accurate measure of muzzle velocity is need (along with an accurate ballistic-coefficient or drag-model) to accurately predict the trajectory over longer ranges for making adjustments to aim for different distances.

4) If your more daring the combination of a chronograph and software like Quickloads or GRT you can, with great care and diligence, venture outside of published data. Not all cartridges have the wealth of reloading data more popular cartridge do.

5) If you loading subsonic ammo for suppressed firearms getting a velocity as close to without exceeding ~1050 is desired to maximize terminal effects while minimizing acoustic signature.

6) Curious...

I am sure there are several other good reasons for owning a chronograph but these are the ones that made me buy one.

There are a metric ton of reasons that may or may not be good including buying a Labradar because I have to show up Jim Bob.

 

[mcb]

There are a metric ton of reasons that may or may not be good including buying a Labradar because I have to show up Jim Bob.

I want a Labradar bad, having used one in the past I thought it was an excellent tool and one I will be adding to my reloading equipment in the near future, probably before another firearms purchase.

There are a lot more than just chronographs that have been bought to show up Jim Bob, he gets shown up by all types of things from fancy chronographs, engraved revolvers, fancy tooled leather, gold inlayed shotguns, jacked up trucks, and expensive shooting garb. Such is the nature of people.

 

[Chuck R.]

While an ES of thirty or forty would indicate a problem, ES in the teens is no big deal if I’m in the node my rounds are not shifting despite an increase in charge.
So to answer the question - none’ but to expand the smallest es doesn’t always mean the smallest group either.
Here’s a ladder test at a thousand yards with an unknown ED/SD yet the load doesn’t shift.

I was going to say in my previous post that I'd surmise, or hazard a guess that any load that was performing at 1000 had a good ES and SD. I've always believed that the actual performance (IE grouping) trumps the chrono stats. So, no IF I had a load that consistently grouped well at the max distance I shot, I wouldn't dump it to get one with better stats.

It's just that the majority of shooters don't have access to any decent long distance ranges to really test groups. So the best that we can do is check groups that we can get at "X" distance available and rely on chrono stats as an indicator for expected performance at greater distances.

 

[HowieG]

I was going to say in my previous post that I'd surmise, or hazard a guess that any load that was performing at 1000 had a good ES and SD. I've always believed that the actual performance (IE grouping) trumps the chrono stats. So, no IF I had a load that consistently grouped well at the max distance I shot, I wouldn't dump it to get one with better stats.

It's just that the majority of shooters don't have access to any decent long distance ranges to really test groups. So the best that we can do is check groups that we can get at "X" distance available and rely on chrono stats as an indicator for expected performance at greater distances.

Unlike Benchrest, some long range games don't involve shooting groups. It's a one round on a target thing. If you do shoot groups at 1000, I don't see how you can avoid verifying that with actual groups at 1000. There may be a bullet issue. It shoots fine groups at 300, but not at 1000 even though it has a good ES/SD.

 

[HowieG]

I want a Labradar bad, having used one in the past I thought it was an excellent tool and one I will be adding to my reloading equipment in the near future, probably before another firearms purchase.

There are a lot more than just chronographs that have been bought to show up Jim Bob, he gets shown up by all types of things from fancy chronographs, engraved revolvers, fancy tooled leather, gold inlayed shotguns, jacked up trucks, and expensive shooting garb. Such is the nature of people.

Such is the nature of people if they can afford it. I am retired. I don't have unlimited money especially at the moment because the market is playing boat anchor. Jim Bob can just win this time.

 

[JFrank]

Unlike Benchrest, some long range games don't involve shooting groups. It's a one round on a target thing. If you do shoot groups at 1000, I don't see how you can avoid verifying that with actual groups at 1000. There may be a bullet issue. It shoots fine groups at 300, but not at 1000 even though it has a good ES/SD.

That’s a great point, some disciples fps is absolutely critical.

 

[Chuck R.]

Unlike Benchrest, some long range games don't involve shooting groups. It's a one round on a target thing. If you do shoot groups at 1000, I don't see how you can avoid verifying that with actual groups at 1000. There may be a bullet issue. It shoots fine groups at 300, but not at 1000 even though it has a good ES/SD.

I agree, but I've also verified stuff the hard way at matches.

I've won matches that the distances involved far exceeded my available distances to test loads or even practice. I basically did the best I could with what I had. I asked the same question once with a guy that won an international LR match in South Africa. I was amazed when I learned he was currently living in RI, a state void of any long distance ranges. His reply was that he practiced with a .22LR at 300 yds.

You pay your fee and take your chances..I just like working the odds as best I can with what I've got.

 

[HowieG]

I agree, but I've also verified stuff the hard way at matches.

I've won matches that the distances involved far exceeded my available distances to test loads or even practice. I basically did the best I could with what I had. I asked the same question once with a guy that won an international LR match in South Africa. I was amazed when I learned he was currently living in RI, a state void of any long distance ranges. His reply was that he practiced with a .22LR at 300 yds.

You pay your fee and take your chances..I just like working the odds as best I can with what I've got.

You can't win them all anyway, even if you do verify in advance. Hopefully those entry fees aren't large.

 

[Chuck R.]

You can't win them all anyway, even if you do verify in advance. Hopefully those entry fees aren't large.

It's not the entry fees that get you, it's the drive/flights, motels etc...

But at least you get to shoot the whole match. Back when I ran dog trials (Retrievers, my wife still does run trials), you could drive a day or two, stay in a motel and be done in the 1st 10 minutes when your dog screws up. Then drive back home....

 

[HowieG]

It's not the entry fees that get you, it's the drive/flights, motels etc...

But at least you get to shoot the whole match. Back when I ran dog trials (Retrievers, my wife still does run trials), you could drive a day or two, stay in a motel and be done in the 1st 10 minutes when your dog screws up. Then drive back home....

I am familiar. My brother runs trials. Labs. I was always just into hunting quail with my bird dogs. I like doing things on my schedule, not somebody elses.

 

[Chuck R.]

I am familiar. My brother runs trials. Labs. I was always just into hunting quail with my bird dogs. I like doing things on my schedule, not somebody elses.

Kind of why I quit it. I'd literally spend 10hrs a day in a lawn chair watching dogs work, and maybe get to run mine for about 4 minutes (IF all went well). If all went well, wait around for "Callbacks" to see if you get to progress to the next series.

I love my dogs, loved training my dogs, but it was no way to spend a weekend..

 

[Bob Willman]

I started reloading in 1964. Never felt that I needed one. Still don't. Single stage press, case lube pad, beam powder scale - with trickler, funnel, case trimmer, brass vibratory cleaner and cartridge dies as needed.

 

[Show Me]

Yes but with these rifles , testing at 200 yards the groups are too close together whereas 500 yards the tendencies are easier to read..

I started reloading in 1964. Never felt that I needed one. Still don't. Single stage press, case lube pad, beam powder scale - with trickler, funnel, case trimmer, brass vibratory cleaner and cartridge dies as needed.

Simple is good. Just don't get daughters,son in laws, grandsons and granddaughters into deer hunting and target shooting. Too many helpers too many calibers. Try to keep it simple, try to keep up.