JAMES77257
Member
I am considering mass loading .40 for practice and IPSC competition. I've heard that you can't shoot lead bullets out of a factory Glock barrel.
I'm looking for personal expierences.
I'm looking for personal expierences.
Who shoots lead bullets out of their Glock?
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HRT
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I use a KKM bbl
Vern Humphrey
Member
Look at a fired Glock bullet -- you will see flats and rounded arcs. Those arcs are the orginal bullet surface that never touched the bore. That means there is a tiny gap at the corner of each flat in the barrel -- and gas squirts through those gaps. Bernoulis Theorem tells us that the pressure and velocity of the gas goes up as it squirts through those gaps. Boyle's Law tells us it gets hotter.
The result, when using lead bullets is lead deposits in the barrel. They tend to accumulate in the chamber mouth, preventing the cartridge from being fully chambered. And the Glock can fire out of battery.
The result, when using lead bullets is lead deposits in the barrel. They tend to accumulate in the chamber mouth, preventing the cartridge from being fully chambered. And the Glock can fire out of battery.
JAMES77257
Member
I see. I am looking at the Storm Lake bbl. Maybe that will solve my problem.
Thanks, James.
Bernouli's Principle states that the pressure and velocity of a fluid are inversely related. If you increase the velocity of a fluid, it's pressure decreases. Both of them don't increase.
Boyle's law doesn't have anything to do with temperature. Boyle's Law states that if the pressure of a gas is increased, it's volume is decreased, and vice versa. I think the gas law you're looking for there is either Charle's Law or the Combined Gas Law. In either case, the gas doesn't get hotter, it gets cooler as the pressure behind the bullet is gradually relieved and the volume of the hot gas is allowed to expand after firing.
Yep. That part is definitely true. Get a lands and grooves barrel for lead, or shoot jacketed ammo.
Jason
loadedround
Member
Do it all the time out of my Glock 21.
LOL
They are usually accompanied by nice pics like these:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb2.html
I think that kb was from Bubba's gun show reloads
, but you get the jist. Jason
I do now that I have a Storm Lake barrel for my 21. Let me say this also, Glocks are tough. The reason I have a storm lake barrel is because I blew up the factory one. I was in a match had a squib and fired a round behind it
The slide locked back because of the bulge in the barrel. It took a little banging but I got it apart, checked things out, ordered a new barrel and all is well. I have since put over 2000 rounds through it with no problems. I'm not sure that other pistols would have held up as well.
The slide locked back because of the bulge in the barrel. It took a little banging but I got it apart, checked things out, ordered a new barrel and all is well. I have since put over 2000 rounds through it with no problems. I'm not sure that other pistols would have held up as well.Vern Humphrey
Member
"All other things being equal." But all other things are not equal. A very large amount of gas is shot through a small opening. Both pressure and velocity will increase in this case.
Quote:
"In a fixed mass of gas, pressure is inversely related to volume, provided temperature is kept constant." The pressure is increased at the point of leakage past the bullet. That's why you get such bad leading from a Glock.
I don't think so. The propelling gas is being squeezed through tiny spaces, but pressure decreases in this situation as the gas speeds up. If you don't believe it, look up the Venturi Tube as an example.
The quoted part is correct. Heat is nowhere in the equation for Boyle's law. Again though, pressure is not increased in those points of leakage because the volume of the gas isn't fixed (Bernoulli's Principle). The gas is rushing through those points and is expanding freely on the other side. Boyle's law doesn't apply, and even Charle's Law or the Combined Gas Law shows just the opposite is occurring. The gas isn't heating up, it's cooling off because the volume is increasing. The only heat that is generated is from friction of the bullet against the bore, and the heat that is generated from the exothermic reaction of the cordite and primer being combusted.
Jason
Vern Humphrey
Member
It decreases only relative to the static pressure -- and since it isn't static, we see an absolute pressure increase. After passage through the gap, there is a dramatic drop. Even in a venturi, pressure is not lower at the point of maximum constriction.
When it passes through the gap, the point of maximum constriction, the volume is decreasing at that point.
Pressure is lower at the point of constriction. It has to be. In a Venturi tube, the fluid's velocity increases as it passes through a constriction, in order to satisfy the Continuity Equation. Its pressure therefore must drop so that the Law of Conservation of Energy isn't violated by the increased KE of the now faster moving fluid. If both pressure and velocity increase at that point of constriction then you are breaking one of the most fundamental laws of physics.
I was talking about the net volume of the total mass of gas that is released upon the combustion of the cordite. Since the small gaps that we're applying the Venturi model to are open ended, you can't really say that it's a smaller volume. It's an open system with constrictions, like the Venturi. The net volume of the gas does increase after ignition, and continues to expand until its pressure is decreased to that of its surroundings (local atmospheric pressure).
Jason
Cocked & Locked
Member
How about Double Tap's 10mm gas-checked hardcast 200 grain Bear Tooth wide flat points?
I've got/shot some of those in my G-20 and am planning on carrying it while hunting...in the factory Glock barrel.
I've got/shot some of those in my G-20 and am planning on carrying it while hunting...in the factory Glock barrel.
If you just absolutely have to shoot lead out of it, then hardcast and medium velocity would be the safest way to do it. I would also scrub the heck out of the bore, and chamber, as well as the feed ramp when I got done. The good thing about polygonal rifling is that the bullet seals the bore much better and therefore you get improved velocity and accuracy, but if that bore gets fouled, well a little constriction on an already tight fit could cause a kb. I would stick with jacketed if it were me.
Jason
jfh
Member.
It's arguable that I was the first in the US to blow a Glock 20.
It was the same day that sick Willy pronounced on NPR that he "...did not have sex with that woman." I was shooting at Bill's Gun Shop and Range in Robbinsdale, MN, at their indoor range.
I got one of the first 20s to hit the Twin Cities--it was preordered at Bill's. I put about 200 FMJ factory rounds through it to burnish the barrel in two different range sessions. The gun / barrel was cleaned between the two sessions, and no problems were noted.
After roughly 50 rounds in the second session (200 rounds total), I shifted to my handloads. These were 180 or 200-gr hardcast (probably from Bull-X, maybe from Penn) over 4.8 gr. of 231. I had loaded and shot 1000s of these through my SA Omega 10mm / 6" barrel--the specs were about 900+ FPS (e.g., Major) with a remarkably low SD, and were a very accurate load. IOW, this recipe is far from a max load.
At about round 284, in a moderately-rapid fire drill (2 rounds / sec?), the gun suddenly felt lighter and my right (grip) hand was stinging. I then realized there was no slide on the pistol. I was checking myself to see if the slide was literally stuck in me somewhere when the rangemaster came running into the line and shut it down, and shooters on either side of me had stuck their heads around the partitions to see what was up.
The slide had flown over my left shoulder and hit a radiator sheet metal cover about eight feet or so behind me, apparently making a godawful clank--it was this noise that got the Rangemaster's attention.
One of the shooters two stations away was an MD--he examined my hand: Other than a blood blister by the mid joint on my forefinger, and a minor powder burn and good sprain in the same location, I was uninjured.
The Frame looked undamaged, but sooty. The slide and barrel were not--the slide was significantly twisted and distorted, with the barrel locked in battery. The barrel had split at about the four o'clock position (as viewed from the rear), starting at the chamber, and forward into the leade and rifling.
To see the signficant distortion in that slide--as anyone who has examined a Glock 20 top end will attest, that is a HD assembly--and to see the apparently undamaged frame--well, you could just imagine the forces involved in getting that slide to lift off the rails and go flying away....
The next day I called Glock, who did not take an incident report, but did offer their sympathy over the lack of warranty because handloaded ammunition had been used. I sent the slide and magazine with the remaining rounds in place to Winchester for further examination. In due time the straightened slide, with the barrel now removable was returned to me. Accompanying it was a boilerplate analysis about 'overpressure' written in CYA jargon for any of the manufacturers involved. Ammunition analysis showed +-.2 gr. variation in load--but none over 5.0 gr of 231, IIRC. IOW, there was nothing defective in the (remaining) cartridges.
At that time I had two other Glocks--a 17L for club Minor competion and a 19 with a laser sight for bedside SD or carry. However, I could never feel comfortable shooting Glocks again, and I eventually sold them.
The ammunition had been loaded on a Pro 1000, and I "know" I had not double-charged a case. As users of this machine will attest, because it has auto-indexing, it is pretty hard to double-charge on this machine. At this point in time I had loaded well over 15 or 20 K rounds in .45 ACP, 10 mm, and other pistol cartridges, with few if any charge problems--so I felt confident in the ammunition.
This was about the time that first reports of leading in polygonal-rifled barrels (Glocks) causing blowups were circulating. Interestingly enough, the SA Omega has polygonal rifling--and there had never been excessive leading problems with that barrel.
So, with that experience in my life, I stay away from Glocks and reloaded lead bullets in their ammunition.
Jim H.
It was the same day that sick Willy pronounced on NPR that he "...did not have sex with that woman." I was shooting at Bill's Gun Shop and Range in Robbinsdale, MN, at their indoor range.
I got one of the first 20s to hit the Twin Cities--it was preordered at Bill's. I put about 200 FMJ factory rounds through it to burnish the barrel in two different range sessions. The gun / barrel was cleaned between the two sessions, and no problems were noted.
After roughly 50 rounds in the second session (200 rounds total), I shifted to my handloads. These were 180 or 200-gr hardcast (probably from Bull-X, maybe from Penn) over 4.8 gr. of 231. I had loaded and shot 1000s of these through my SA Omega 10mm / 6" barrel--the specs were about 900+ FPS (e.g., Major) with a remarkably low SD, and were a very accurate load. IOW, this recipe is far from a max load.
At about round 284, in a moderately-rapid fire drill (2 rounds / sec?), the gun suddenly felt lighter and my right (grip) hand was stinging. I then realized there was no slide on the pistol. I was checking myself to see if the slide was literally stuck in me somewhere when the rangemaster came running into the line and shut it down, and shooters on either side of me had stuck their heads around the partitions to see what was up.
The slide had flown over my left shoulder and hit a radiator sheet metal cover about eight feet or so behind me, apparently making a godawful clank--it was this noise that got the Rangemaster's attention.
One of the shooters two stations away was an MD--he examined my hand: Other than a blood blister by the mid joint on my forefinger, and a minor powder burn and good sprain in the same location, I was uninjured.
The Frame looked undamaged, but sooty. The slide and barrel were not--the slide was significantly twisted and distorted, with the barrel locked in battery. The barrel had split at about the four o'clock position (as viewed from the rear), starting at the chamber, and forward into the leade and rifling.
To see the signficant distortion in that slide--as anyone who has examined a Glock 20 top end will attest, that is a HD assembly--and to see the apparently undamaged frame--well, you could just imagine the forces involved in getting that slide to lift off the rails and go flying away....
The next day I called Glock, who did not take an incident report, but did offer their sympathy over the lack of warranty because handloaded ammunition had been used. I sent the slide and magazine with the remaining rounds in place to Winchester for further examination. In due time the straightened slide, with the barrel now removable was returned to me. Accompanying it was a boilerplate analysis about 'overpressure' written in CYA jargon for any of the manufacturers involved. Ammunition analysis showed +-.2 gr. variation in load--but none over 5.0 gr of 231, IIRC. IOW, there was nothing defective in the (remaining) cartridges.
At that time I had two other Glocks--a 17L for club Minor competion and a 19 with a laser sight for bedside SD or carry. However, I could never feel comfortable shooting Glocks again, and I eventually sold them.
The ammunition had been loaded on a Pro 1000, and I "know" I had not double-charged a case. As users of this machine will attest, because it has auto-indexing, it is pretty hard to double-charge on this machine. At this point in time I had loaded well over 15 or 20 K rounds in .45 ACP, 10 mm, and other pistol cartridges, with few if any charge problems--so I felt confident in the ammunition.
This was about the time that first reports of leading in polygonal-rifled barrels (Glocks) causing blowups were circulating. Interestingly enough, the SA Omega has polygonal rifling--and there had never been excessive leading problems with that barrel.
So, with that experience in my life, I stay away from Glocks and reloaded lead bullets in their ammunition.
Jim H.
This issue always seem to engender lively discussion, with pros and cons and a mix of fact and myth. There seems to be enough real-life negative experience to justify concern about shooting naked lead out of a GLOCK barrel. Many people seem to agree that it's okay *if* the shooter is scrupulous about cleaning the lead out of the barrel after x number of rounds shot. If not willing to do that, most say get an aftermarket barrel with traditional rifling. I have a KKM in my G22 that I like very much (even though I don't shoot lead). Looks great, too.
K
K
Me thinks not...
No offence, but I think that what you said was incorrect. Polygonal rifling provides a better seal for the expanding gasses, while also reducing friction. This is why bullets fired from a polygonal barrel will have a higher velocity, all else being equal.
No offence, but I think that what you said was incorrect. Polygonal rifling provides a better seal for the expanding gasses, while also reducing friction. This is why bullets fired from a polygonal barrel will have a higher velocity, all else being equal.
Vern Humphrey
Member
All you have to do is shoot your Glock and look at the fired bullet. It will not fill out the corners of the polygonal rifling, and you can see that by noting the rounded sections between flats.
Polygonal rifling does provide a better seal against the bullet than conventional rifling. Also, it does provide higher velocity. The velocity gain doesn't come from a lack of friction AFIK though, it comes form the fact that since there is a better seal, there is more pressure behind the bullet whilst it is traveling through the barrel. Conventional rifling would "leak" more of the propellant gas than a polygonal bore. I don't think that leading is due to any such leaking anyway though. I think that any barrel will lead, it's just that since you already have a tight fit with the polygonal bore, and no grooves for the lead to "safely" deposit in, you end up with lead on the walls of the bore, and cause an already tight fit to become too tight... kb. In a conventional bore, the lead will deposit in the grooves, and unless you shoot it without cleaning, to the point that the grooves are filled up too much with lead, you still don't have the pressure issues, because the gas can escape through the grooves. In a polygonal bore you have no grooves. Lead is a bad idea IMO unless you have a lands & grooves bore.
Jason
Ok, ok, ok. Let me get this straight. You soak a Glock in sea water, freeze it in a bucket, bury it in sand, drive over it with a tank, drop it from the empire state building, etc; but you shouldn't fire a lead bullet from it? What gives?
I'm glad I got the 1911 bug early in my handgun life, and still have it.
I'm glad I got the 1911 bug early in my handgun life, and still have it.
JAMES77257
Member
1911's don't run with copper jacketed bullets, much less lead.
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