Why 2F Instead of 3F - BP Handgun Cartridges

[Johnm1]

So I’m about to load several different BP cartridges and I noticed that some/many who load BP handgun cartridges use 2F and instead of 3F. What is the thinking behind that decision?

Consider that I’m basing the question on what I think I know. The general thought is that 1F is for cannon, 2F is for rifle (at least larger rifle anyhow) 3F is for handgun, and 4F is a priming powder. Now I know a lot of people load handguns with 4F generally the smaller handguns I think. But for 38 and 44 I’d have thought 3F would have been the default. And maybe 4F for the 32’s. So is my ‘general thought’ just sheep dip?

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

I'm betting, that those that do. Have by reason of trial-and-error; load testing, found that using 2F gave better results in their firearms. Also, you are not wrong in your general bp "methodology" about (F scale).

 

[45 Dragoon]

2f = weenie loads.
3f= standard ( today) loads
4f= "manly" loads

Mike

 

[Roverguy]

2F loads are likely a compromise as it can be more effectively used in shotgun and rifle loads (generally speaking) than 3F. So if you want to use one powder for all your black powder needs, especially in the context of CAS, 2Ff is probably the best compromise.

In my experience, 3Fff is best for revolver cartridges and cap n ball in terms of velocity but then, powder speed is not closely tied to my identity and self esteem For CAS and basic target shooting, 2Ff is perfectly usable.

I use 2Ff for shotgun loads and 1.5F for 45-70 loads. I don’t mind stocking three powders. Also, there are availability issues these days, so using what you can get is also fine.

 

[Johnm1]

2f = weenie loads.
3f= standard ( today) loads
4f= "manly" loads

Mike

Ha. Too funny. And I’ve heard that one could get more velocity from 4F. But in this case I’m not chasing ballistic performance.

l in terms of velocity but then, powder speed is not closely tied to my identity and self esteem For CAS and basic target shooting,

Continuing the above thought, my first goal is to see if I can get any of the four BP cartridge guns to shoot to point of aim. So the bullets I just received from Matt’s Bullets are as close as I can come to the original projectiles the black powder cartridges were designed for. I’m not sure I’m going to be able to accomplish that. If I’m going to have to make adjustments I’d just prefer a load that doesn’t strain the guns. Of the four guns I have none were made after 1885 or so. I want to be able to hit what I’m aiming at.

The four revolvers are:

H&A XL8 44-40
Smith & Wesson 32, 38, and 44 Double Actions.

My first try at 44-40 was feet off at 25 yards. But I made several mistakes on those.

 

[The old gunsmith]

There are several reasons that one may use 2f instead of 3f in a particular handgun cartridge. 1. In a particular firearm, 2f may give the best accuracy. 2. An individual may just want to stock one powder and 2f will pretty much work in anything. 3. 2f will generally leave a softer fouling residue than 3f. 4. The individual may be using the cartridge in a rifle and get better velocity out of the slower powder.

 

[Johnm1]

Throughout the years I've read accounts of people disassembling old black powder cartridges to see what granulation was in it. I never could come to a consensus as the results varied. Consider I'm going to put these first loads together to try and replicate the original loads. Not for historically reproducing the loads, but to try to see if I can shoot to the sights without adjustment.

What granulation do you think I should start with? 44-40, 44 Russian, 38 S&W, and 32 S&W are the cartridges if it makes a difference.

The defaault will be 3F but if you think another granulation will shoot closer to the sights, speak up.

 

[Bibbyman]

I've used everything in everything. It all works. Some combinations probably work better. Just loaded some 38 special with 3f.

 

[hawg]

I usually do use 3F for revolvers when I have it but it takes a chrono to tell the difference. If it takes a chrono to tell the difference then for my purposes there is no difference. I haven't noticed a change in point of impact between 2F and 3F in revolvers but I don't shoot paper. It might make a difference in a rifle because the charges are so much bigger. As for charges I just use however much it takes to fill the case and get a little compression when I seat the bullet without using a filler or wad. I make my measures based on that and don't really measure anything. I say my 44-40's have 35 grains but it may actually be a grain or two more. I'm not sure how much powder you can get in a modern 44-40 case and still seat a bullet. Having grown up shooting single actions from an early age I learned to use Kentucky windage and elevation. On guns that have adjustable sights I seldom adjust them. It bothers me more to have sights that aren't centered than it does to use Kentucky Windage. I'm just not going to go to the trouble to make a gun shoot to point of aim unless it's something I'm going to hunt with or do serious paper punching with and my paper punching days are long gone.

 

[dickydalton]

Well, one test you can do is load a 50 cal T/C rifle with 70 to 80 grains of 3F and a lubed conical bullet and fire it ten times. Clean the rifle and try to do it again with 2F. I hope you have a good ramrod.

 

[dickydalton]

The only thing I use 2F in anymore is my 12 gague.

 

[Johnm1]

It bothers me more to have sights that aren't centered than it does to use Kentucky Windage. I'm just not going to go to the trouble to make a gun shoot to point of aim unless

I'm actually not concerned with left/right. Only elevation. Although I'm sure I did something stupid on my first 44-40 loads, I had to aim at the ground below the target at 25 yards to hit paper.

Discussing this at work a friend said "it'll be zero'd at some distance. You just need to figure what that distance is".


I think I'll start with a full case of 3f and try to compress it solidly and see where that gets me.

Thanks all for sharing.

 

[hawg]

I'm actually not concerned with left/right. Only elevation. Although I'm sure I did something stupid on my first 44-40 loads, I had to aim at the ground below the target at 25 yards to hit paper.

Discussing this at work a friend said "it'll be zero'd at some distance. You just need to figure what that distance is".


I think I'll start with a full case of 3f and try to compress it solidly and see where that gets me.

Thanks all for sharing.

What are you using to hit that high at 25 yards? The percussion .44's were originally sighted in at 75 yards. The Colt repros mostly still used the original sight height but Remingtons especially newer Pietta's have stupid tall front sights to compensate. I don't know of anybody making 44-40 conversions cylinders tho. My Uberti/Cimarron 1873 in 44-40 has an extra tall front sight and hits low at 25 yards. It would be easy to just file it down and it would look more historically correct but I just hold half the front sight above the rear to compensate.

 

[Johnm1]

What are you using to hit that high at 25 yards? The percussion .44's were originally sighted in at 75 yards. The Colt repros mostly still used the original sight height but Remingtons especially newer Pietta's have stupid tall front sights to compensate. I don't know of anybody making 44-40 conversions cylinders tho. My Uberti/Cimarron 1873 in 44-40 has an extra tall front sight and hits low at 25 yards. It would be easy to just file it down and it would look more historically correct but I just hold half the front sight above the rear to compensate.

The 44-40 is the Hopkins and Allen XL 8 and I have no clue what distance the sights would have been regulated for. It was a direct competitor to the SAA so I suspect it was regulated for whatever distance the army specified. Forgotten Weapons has a video on the XL 8 if your interested.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

As all BP is the same, except for the grain size, any "F" will work. I've seen some testing (Mike B.) where in muskets or fowlers, the larger grains, or less "F's" will produce more velocity. In rifles and pistols probably not much difference. The most difference would probably be found in the amount of fouling.

I load my .44 cap and ball revolvers with 4fg. And my .36's. Just seems to work well for me, and in my pistols, fouls the least. I've gone from 2fg to 1.5fg in my .62" rifle, and although I've played with 3fg and 2fg in my musket, it really seems to like 1fg best. 2fg in my Plains Pistol, in both .50 and .54" barrels. So yeah, the general rules-O-thumb are good, or starting points, but really you have to try them all to see what an individual gun likes best. I've tried 2, 3, and 4fg in all my pistols, and like 4fg the best.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think I'll start with a full case of 3f and try to compress it solidly and see where that gets me.

Black powder in cartridges love compression. IMHO.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Throughout the years I've read accounts of people disassembling old black powder cartridges to see what granulation was in it. I never could come to a consensus as the results varied.

That is because it was compressed when loaded. I read accounts where the writer said: "over time, the black powder had turned into a solid cake". No, it was compressed when originally loaded. That makes it difficult to determine what the grain size was...100 years ago.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The defaault will be 3F but if you think another granulation will shoot closer to the sights, speak up.

Got a bad feeling you won't see any difference in windage or elevation. But I could be wrong.

 

[44 Dave]

The old balloon head .38-40s I pulled apart were finer than 2F black powder.

 

[Savvy Jack]

My 44-40 black powder results using Swiss FFg and Goes FFFg

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I use 4 f in most of my percussion revolvers. 3f in the big ones like the Walker and ROAs. 4 f in an Old Army will definitely get your attention. Recoil is sharp to say the least.

 

[hawg]

My 44-40 black powder results using Swiss FFg and Goes FFFg
View attachment 1159344

Why no Swiss 3F?

 

[Savvy Jack]

Why no Swiss 3F?

My bad, that is all I had at time time to test...although I did have KiK...but I think that was FFg as well.

 

[Dave T]

John, what a cool revolver! I've never seen one in person, only in books.

I've always loaded FFFg in my 45 Colt ammo because, in modern solid-head brass it comes closer to factory spec in terms of velocity. I load my 44 WCF ammo with FFg because I only have rifles chambered for that round. In my experience FFg works better in rifles than FFFg. Years ago I had a real Colt "Frontier sixshooter" but now I don't have a handgun for that round so I just load for the rifles.

Dave

 

[Navy Six 2]

A few simple guidelines might help:
* size bullets to chamber mouth dimensions--hopefully this is close to barrel groove diameter
*bullets should be relatively soft, starting at pure lead to 1/20 tin lead or close
*bullets should have generous grease groove capacity
* lube should be black powder compatible
*compress powder charge(maybe 1/8" or a little more) so no air space remains
There are other factors but if the above criteria is followed you shouldn't be having any major problems when using either 2F or 3F. You mentioned using commercial bullets. Do not shoot them with black powder unless you first remove the smokeless lube(if they came that way).
Good luck, this is easier than it sounds!