Testing 4f as charge powder

[mmb617]

I've been making my own black powder for a few months now and I'm quite happy with the results. I get mainly 3f size granules which is what I shoot in all my .50 caliber flintlocks, but I've also been getting more 4f size than I'll ever need if I only use it for priming.

I'd been thinking that when the supply of 4f gets too high I would reprocess the excess which is doable, but then I thought why not just shoot it?

I guess this is another of those things that cause arguments as some people say it's a definite no-no, but why? The only point I see that makes any sense is that since we usually measure our loads by volume instead of weight if we switch to 4f which is denser than 3f and use the same volume, and if we were at the max load with 3f a similar volume of 4f would exceed the recommended max.

But I'm using loads that are well below max so I thought I'd give it a try. Yesterday I took two of my rifles to the range and used 4f as the charge, taking 16 shots with each. No problems were encountered, and in fact I think it gave me slightly more reliable ignition.

So now I've abandoned any plans to reprocess my excess 4f, I'll just shoot it instead.

Has anybody else used 4f as charge?

 

[Lyle]

LYMAN Blackpowder Handbook from 1975.
The loads listed are in the blackpowder revolver chapter.
31 cal with RB, 10.0 grs, 694 fps. 13 grs, 795 fps. 5 3/4 " BBL
36 cal with RB, 14 grs to 26 grs, 27.5 maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
36 cal with bullet #37583 9 grs to 15 grs. 15 grs maximum charge. 7 1/2 " BBL
44 cal with RB, 19.0 to 33.0 grs, 37 maximum charge, 8" BBl
44 cal with bullet #450229, 19.0 grs to 25.0 grs, 28 grs maximum load.
Ruger Old Army, with 7 1/2" BBL, 31.0 to 41.0 grs maximum charge, with RB.
Ruger Old Army , with 7 1/2 BBL, with bullet #45468, 26.0 grs to 35.0 grs.



I don’t shoot rifles only pistols. If I had 4F powder I would use it in my Navies.

 

[Bibbyman]

Has anybody else used 4f as charge?

I got a old can of 4f Goex for $10! I'm using 19g by volume of 4f Goex and 19g of grits in this ROA. Round ball and lubed felt was. Nice plinking load. I don't think I'd use it in weaker guns.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think the myth of 4fg being too hot is slowly dying. Of course you have to adjust your charges. I use it in my pistols, but I know a gent who uses it in everything even shotguns, and his face has not been blown off.

In my revolvers, it seems to have an accuracy edge.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I use Swiss #1 (4F) as propellant in my flintlock pistols. Works fine, very fast shot development. The British shooters have been doing it that way for years. I've also tried it for percussion pistol, which works, and revolver...which has a tendency to dribble out the nipples.

 

[Fyrstyk]

I see no problem with using 4f in rifles or pistols. I would reduce the load by 15% and work my way up if necessary. No different than switching from 2f to 3f. Reduce the load by 10-15% and work up if necessary. The only problem that may occur with using 4f in a rifle is that the fouling gets pretty soupy and may require more between shot swabbing.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

I've tested and chronographed a mild 20 grain load of FFFFg and compared to 20 grain load of FFFg. The velocity with FFFFg was about 70 fps greater than the same load of FFFg. Though take these results with a grain of salt as I used Schuetzen FFFg powder versus Goex FFFFg which was what I had at hand. That difference might very well be due to a difference in powder brand not so much the granulation. Hard to tell. Anyways I can also say, that the FFFFg powder generated somewhat greater pressure in the chamber because no percussion cap was left stuck on the nipple as is quite common with this revolver and a mild FFFg loads. 20, maybe 25 grains of FFFFg is as much as I'm willing to pour into any italian cap gun as these are made of inferior materials and I don't think a full charge can be considered safe.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

I got a old can of 4f Goex for $10! I'm using 19g by volume of 4f Goex and 19g of grits in this ROA. Round ball and lubed felt was. Nice plinking load. I don't think I'd use it in weaker guns.

Yeah, with ruger you can load as much 4F powder the chamber will hold and you will not damage the gun. I'm curious what velocity could be achieved with a full chamber of FFFFg compared to FFFg but I am not willing to test that in a cheap italian repro. A 20 grain load produced about 9% more velocity as identical FFFg load. If we assume a full charge of 40 grains produces about 1050 fps with a .454 roundball, FFFFg could maybe boost that to 1150 fps which starts to be a respectable velocity.

 

[Patocazador]

I have fired my ROA with 4F but the front sight wasn't high enough to avoid high shots. Otherwise, the loads functioned perfectly.

I ALWAYS use 4F as a prime for my flintlocks. I know it works and will not succumb to the ones who use 3F or even 2F to "self-prime". If it works for them, that's great. However, I mainly use my BP guns to hunt with and don't want to take a chance.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I almost always use 4fg for priming, but I can't tell much difference between it and 3fg. One reason I switched to 4fg in my pistols is so that my pistol flask can double as a priming flask for my rifle or musket when packing a BP revolver. If I carry a more modern/cartridge pistol, then I take my little priming horn with 4fg.

I had to follow a wounded bear into the heavy brush last fall, and did prime directly from my paper cartridges, which were loaded with 2fg. No miss fires or hang-fires, but I couldn't hit the bear as the brush was deflecting the balls, at very close range. Two clean misses! However, four shots in all and the rifle performed flawlessly.

What do you mean by "self prime"?

 

[Zygodactyl]

I imagine he means when you tear off the paper cartridge tail you use a little powder to prime the pan and the rest into the muzzle. Flint lock cartridges usually had a little more powder to compensate for what was used in the pan.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Right, and I had to (or did) do that during the bear adventure, but there was also a method in Roger's Ranger's days where you had an over sized flash hole, poured your powder and ball in and hit the butt on the ground so that some of the main charge would dribble through the flash hole and into the pan, which (hopefully) seated the ball at the same time. But I don't think anyone is doing that these days...!!!

Well, still confused as I've never heard of priming from the cartridge referred to as self priming.

 

[Patocazador]

What do you mean by "self prime"?

Some people only load their flinters in the barrel (usually 3F) and don't prime the pan. Instead they tilt the gun and allow some powder to drain out the touch hole into the pan. If the hole is larger than 1/16", it seems to work OK.

 

[dave951]

I've tested and chronographed a mild 20 grain load of FFFFg and compared to 20 grain load of FFFg. The velocity with FFFFg was about 70 fps greater than the same load of FFFg. Though take these results with a grain of salt as I used Schuetzen FFFg powder versus Goex FFFFg which was what I had at hand. That difference might very well be due to a difference in powder brand not so much the granulation. Hard to tell. Anyways I can also say, that the FFFFg powder generated somewhat greater pressure in the chamber because no percussion cap was left stuck on the nipple as is quite common with this revolver and a mild FFFg loads. 20, maybe 25 grains of FFFFg is as much as I'm willing to pour into any italian cap gun as these are made of inferior materials and I don't think a full charge can be considered safe.

Did you measure the charge by weight or volume? Mass is mass and 20gr of 3f by weight is the same as 20gr 4f by weight. Only difference is the volume. Smaller individual granule size only changes the burn rate.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Some people only load their flinters in the barrel (usually 3F) and don't prime the pan. Instead they tilt the gun and allow some powder to drain out the touch hole into the pan. If the hole is larger than 1/16", it seems to work OK.

Okay, boy, I thought that went out with Roger's Rangers!! I don't think that would be reliable for sure, unless of course with a very large touch-hole. And then, you lose a very large amount of pressure out said hole. Talk about a vented breech! Interesting, again, it's a known technique but I did not think anyone was doing it.

 

[ClemBert]

I got a old can of 4f Goex for $10! I'm using 19g by volume of 4f Goex and 19g of grits in this ROA. Round ball and lubed felt was. Nice plinking load. I don't think I'd use it in weaker guns.

I really like your videos.

 

[SomebodyMakeRiderRepro]

Did you measure the charge by weight or volume? Mass is mass and 20gr of 3f by weight is the same as 20gr 4f by weight. Only difference is the volume. Smaller individual granule size only changes the burn rate.

For testing / competition I always measure by weight on a jewelry scale. For plinking, volume is justy fine. That being said it was equal charge by weight.

 

[paul harm]

The OP didn't say if he was loading pistols or rifles or how much powder. The smaller the BP grain, the more surface area there is to burn, so the higher the pressure. At pistol charges I wouldn't think there would be any danger. I use to deer hunt with my own 10" barrel 50 cal caplock with 50grs of 4F. That was with a Bill Large pistol barrel and he once told me he uses the same steel Win uses in their modern mag rifles. In 52 years of muzzleloading I've never met anyone who measures charges by weight, just volume.
I have read where the Indians hunting buffalo on horseback with trade guns would load with the pan closed, take a RB out of their mouth with spit on it, put it in the muzzle, and hit the butt against their leg to seat the ball. The rifle was kept up until the time to shoot and the hopes were that the spit would keep the ball against the powder. The closed pan allowed them not to have to prime the pan.
I don't believe a priming horn has ever been found with old accruements so apparently the same size powder was used for both the main charge and priming the gun. A gun going off back then could mean the difference in life and death, not just bagging another deer.

 

[243winxb]

Goex BP increases burn rate & pressure as it goes from 2F to 4F. I use 3F in a 45 cal T/C flintlock & get 1900 fps.
"Confined, velocities have been timed at values from 560 feet per second for very coarse granulations to 2,070 feet per second for the finer granulations."

 

[mmb617]

The OP didn't say if he was loading pistols or rifles or how much powder.

Yesterday I took two of my rifles to the range and used 4f as the charge, taking 16 shots with each.

I'm doing this testing with my rifles, specifically this test was with a 24" barrel Deerhunter and a 32" barrel Mountain Rifle. I used 50 grains of 4f powder and the listed max for 3f powder is 105 grains, so I think I have a very adequate safety margin. Note that the powder was measured by volume so the actual weight might be slightly off but as I'm only using 50% of max I don't worry about that.

Once the weather here gets a little better I intend to do some chronograph work to compare the effect of 3f and 4f charges on velocity.

All I was really trying to do is determine whether I can just shoot my excess 4f powder rather than re-process it. I haven't seen any reason why I can't just shoot it.

 

[paul harm]

I own a home made Jack Lewis 50cal target pistol with a 10" barrel [ maybe it's 8", not sure and too lazy to walk downstairs and measure ] and when deer hunting with that gun, 50grs of 4F is used under a 495 RB. ALL my loads are measured by volume, not weight. It has a Bill Large barrel and shoots just fine.

 

[mmb617]

Tuesday I took two more of my rifles for testing with the 4f charge, a 28" barrel Hawken and a 33.5" barrel Kentucky. I used 50 grain charges and fired 20 shots with each rifle. Not only were no problems encountered but I think they are firing more reliably with the 4f charge than they do with 3f.

Another thing I noticed is that the ball rammed fairly easy all day. I don't so any swabbing between shots and usually as the shot count climbs I can feel the crud ring start to make ramming harder, but it seemed less noticeable with the 4f. The cleaning after shooting seemed about the same as far as amount of dirt accumulated.

 

[Duster340]

Thanks for the update!