Why 2F Instead of 3F - BP Handgun Cartridges

[tark]

Maybe with the wrought iron cylinders of the original guns but I don't see a problem with modern guns.

I use it in 44/40 cartridges. It's definitely not mouse fart loads. I gave up using 4f in flinters years ago, whatever is in the horn goes in the pan.

I have been educated!

 

[Bryan Austin]

Original 44-40 loads used 40gr of FFg in solid head, semi-balloon packet cases. The pressures created were much more than today. Today, FFFg is needed, as well as continued compression of the powder, in order to achieve 1,325fps at still below original pressures. Original pressures were a bit higher than SAAMI smokeless max pressures.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Original 44-40 loads used 40gr of FFg in solid head, semi-balloon packet cases. The pressures created were much more than today. Today, FFFg is needed, as well as continued compression of the powder, in order to achieve 1,325fps at still below original pressures. Original pressures were a bit higher than SAAMI smokeless max pressures.

View attachment 1174365

If I recall correctly, the case on the left is a balloon-head. Never heard tell of a semi-balloon head case, but I may be wrong. Also, can you quote a source for your info regarding original pressures with black powder being slightly higher than SAAMI smokeless pressures? Just trying to educate myself a bit here.

 

[Bryan Austin]

If I recall correctly, the case on the left is a balloon-head. Never heard tell of a semi-balloon head case, but I may be wrong. Also, can you quote a source for your info regarding original pressures with black powder being slightly higher than SAAMI smokeless pressures? Just trying to educate myself a bit here.

The case on the left, and all 44 WCF cases, were solid-head with semi-balloon pockets until the ones you mention were manufactured around 1950. The pockets got smaller and smaller over the years.

 

[Bryan Austin]

1874 second box label. Only a handful of rifles were shipped before 1874. The rifles were held until the new Winchester primers replaced the ill-fated Milbank primed cases.



The Milbank primed cases were still solid-head cases. Note the dimple in the primer, looks like a spent cartridge.


The only Milbank primed 44 WCF cases known. Solid-head.


Folded-head cases were balloon-head cases...like the Frankford Arsenal 45 Colt cases, as well as some external primed cases. The 44-40 was always a #4 design.

 

[Acorn Mush]

The case on the left, and all 44 WCF cases, were solid-head with semi-balloon pockets until the ones you mention were manufactured around 1950. The pockets got smaller and smaller over the years.

1874 second box label. Only a handful of rifles were shipped before 1874. The rifles were held until the new Winchester primers replaced the ill-fated Milbank primed cases.

View attachment 1174386

Thanks for the info. Still a bit confused though. What is meant by "solid-head with semi-balloon pockets until the ones you mention were manufactured around 1950"? Does this refer specifically to .44WCF cases only and the exclusion of all other handgun cases? Solid heads date back way before 1950. Were some style of balloon heads made around the 1950s? There is still a lot I don't know about some of the finer points of case manufacturing and design. As an aside, I wonder when the major manufacturers eliminated any semblance of the balloon pocket.
Thanks again for your help.

 

[Bryan Austin]

Thanks for the info. Still a bit confused though. What is meant by "solid-head with semi-balloon pockets until the ones you mention were manufactured around 1950"? Does this refer specifically to .44WCF cases only and the exclusion of all other handgun cases? Solid heads date back way before 1950. Were some style of balloon heads made around the 1950s? There is still a lot I don't know about some of the finer points of case manufacturing and design. As an aside, I wonder when the major manufacturers eliminated any semblance of the balloon pocket.
Thanks again for your help.

Here is an example: The 44-40 case on the left is of the #4 (previously posted illustration) externally primed solid-head, semi balloon pocket design, while the case on the right is an externally primed #3 (previously posted illustration) (but with a re-enforced cup) folded-head "balloon-head" primer pocket.


The semi balloon pocket cases were available up into the 1950ish timeframe. The main reason for the smaller pockets over time is due to the larger primers being used starting in the late 1928-1932 era. Eventually the pockets were gone by the 1950's 1960's. I speak for the 44-40 but other cartridge cases may have been similar...as well as the 45 Colt.

Here is what I have documented:
44-40 Data
45 Colt Data

 

[Bryan Austin]

This is an example of a "Draw Set" that I have in my collection. Although it is from 1903, it is the same as what was used in 1873/74 for the 44-40 (44 WCF). This specific set was for the 1903 44 Winchester High Velocity load






The cartridge contained 20gr of Sharpshooter smokeless powder that generated 1,564fps velocities and 18,000cup of chamber pressures. Manufactured specifically for the Winchester Model 92'...of which no special steel was used for the barrel.

 

[Acorn Mush]

GREAT info sir! Thank you VERY much! Never knew about the internal cup.

 

[Bryan Austin]

GREAT info sir! Thank you VERY much! Never knew about the internal cup.

Food for thought, the powder burns different out and around the balloon pocket than it does with a true solid-head case...thus the misinformation of chamber pressures from early black powder loads to late black powder loads to modern black powder loads....then top it all off with vintage and modern smokeless powder loads.

Here is a 44-40 velocity time-line. Notice the velocity/pressure change as the powder and case designs (primer-pocket) changed.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Food for thought, the powder burns different out and around the balloon pocket than it does with a true solid-head case...thus the misinformation of chamber pressures from early black powder loads to late black powder loads to modern black powder loads....then top it all off with vintage and modern smokeless powder loads.

Here is a 44-40 velocity time-line. Notice the velocity/pressure change as the powder and case designs (primer-pocket) changed.

That certainly illustrates the different burning characteristics you mentioned. It is quite interesting that the difference in internal case design (semi-balloon vs. solid-web) can have such an effect on pressure and muzzle velocity. If my math is correct, the solid-web design gives up only 25fps at 79% of the pressure compared to the 1884 semi-balloon case with the same powder charge (presuming identical bullet weights).
Thank you yet again for making this information available. For me, it was quite a revelation.