Why all the disinformation about shipping long guns?

[TGT]

I have had more then one FFL holder (ie:licensed gun dealers) tell me that I could not legally ship a rifle or shotgun directly to another dealer out of state.
I was told that it had to be shipped dealer to dealer.

There is one particular gun forums web sight, (I won't mention by name, but their main objective is to discuss rimfires) clearly states this as fact in the form of a bold red print over their classifieds.

That I have known for a number of years now (and where state law allows) IT IS LEGAL FOR A NON-FFL HOLDER TO SHIP TO AN OUT OF STATE FFL HOLDER (using the USPS). Again, this pertains to long arms, not handguns.

If anyone here can tell me that I am wrong, and shipping long arms is illegal except for a dealer to dealer, then please inform us. I am really becoming flustered with the ineptitude of both the local firearms dealers and postal workers I encounter. As much as I am sure that they are misinformed, it is still unnerving to be told by these people that I would be breaking the law.


This following information on the topic was cut and pasted right off of the largest US Gun Auction web sight:


Firearms Shipping Guide


(last updated on 8/4/2007 11:46:55 AM)

Firearms Shipping Guide



Overview
This page provides information about Federal Laws, step that must be followed, and notes on using specific shippers when shipping firearms. This page is oriented toward the seller of an item. If you need information about how to buy a firearm through GunBroker.com, please refer to our Buyer's Tutorial.
This page contains information oriented toward persons shipping firearms within the United States. For sellers located outside the United States, please see our Import / Export Page.


Shipping Legalities
Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped only to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL). The recipient must be have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale).
Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back]
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

 

[Morglan]

I've been through the same frustration as you right here on this sight.

Happened awhile back when I posted a long gun for sale, and was criticized in my for sale post by a member who felt I could not legally ship the rifle.

He was wrong, and I proved it within the post.

(The rifle sold, and I shipped it to a dealer myself.)

 

[hotpig]

Just make sure the receiving FFL will accept the gun from you as a individual. He may require a copy of your ID.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Just because someone has an FFL doesn't actually make them knowledgeable about stuff. It just means they had a clean enough background to pass the check and enough money to pay the fee.

Given the litany of overtly false information some FFLs spread about the actual guns, it's no surprise that they have it wrong when it comes to shipping.

Brad

 

[Jim Watson]

There is the law and then there is company policy.
There are dealers who will not accept guns sent by an American Commoner and there are carriers - or individual clerks for about any carrier - who will not ship guns for an American Commoner.

Don't know or understand the law? Don't want to be accomodating? The customer is never right? I dunno, but there are things that are legal that you can't get done.

 

[waterhouse]

I think the disinformation comes from company policy and certain state's laws, and then is perpetuated over the internet.

I've never had a gun arrive from a dealer without a copy of his FFL in the box. Non-FFLs sometimes do not include any identifying information, which makes it impossible to log the gun into the books. Some dealers probably get fed up with this and make it company policy to only accept guns from other FFLs. Then if a customer asks an employee of that store about transfers, the employee might state store policy as if it is law (or the customer just assumes that the rules at one store are law.)

I just sold a gun to a guy in New York, and he told me it was state law that it has to go FFL to FFL. I don't know if is the law, and since I have an FFL I don't care, since it was going that way anyway. I've heard the same from dealers in CA. Again, I don't know if these laws actually exist, and I've never bothered to look them up (I guess you could list laziness as another reason the disinformation continues. )

 

[Hoppy590]

The purpose of having an FFL isn't to sell guns or to make money -- it is to tell you "NO."

 

[hotpig]

I think waterhouse hit it on the mark.

I have been thinking about only accepting from other FFL's. The last two transfers that I have done the seller agreed over the phone to send a copy of their ID. After the guns arrived without ID I called them and was basically told screw you they were not sending them.


Lately I have had a few customers refuse to send ID on ammo purchases on my web site. They have even tried to convince me that I'm the only dealer on the net that has this stupid requirement.

I also love guys that place orders on my web site. When they get the order confirmation email from the web site they then call me to see if I received their order. I honestly do not know what to say to them.

 

[TGT]

Thanks for the reinforcement guys.

I have very valid concerns for not desiring to let a dealer ship for me.

Mainly, NOBODY, can do it better then me! What I mean by that is, when I package up a $1,400 Weatherby Rifle, I know it's done with utmost care and attention. I make sure the muzzle is covered in a soft bundled up cloth, and that there are thick folded card board barricades placed on both ends of the rifle to prevent the rifle from ram rodding back and forth in the box. I also make sure that the bolt isn't brainlessly left loose in the box to slide around and dent the rifle. (ever hear of that happening?) Nor, do I allow the scope to rub against the side of the box and have the blueing rub off. I also know that when I want $1,400 worth of insurance put on the rifle, it won't some how conveniently be overlooked.

This is not to say that all dealers do things in an uncaring way or haphazard way, it's just to say that when I do it myself..... I can know what to expect.

Did you ever have a licensed dealer ship you a $1,300 Colt rifle, to have it arrive to you with the front sight protruding out of the box? This was after I had already prewarned him that I have read of such instances on the internet, and to please not let this happen to my rifle!

 

[Brad Johnson]

After the guns arrived without ID I called them and was basically told screw you they were not sending them.

Then you have a weapon from an unknown source, and an individual who refuses to identify themselves. Simply tell the person you must have an ID to received it and, if not, you will turn it over to the police and let them sort it out. If they still refuse to supply an ID, call the PD and have them come pick up the gun.

Brad

 

[Morglan]

I just sold a gun to a guy in New York, and he told me it was state law that it has to go FFL to FFL.

Being a New Yorker, this is one of those things that annoy me. There is no law on the books that states that a firearm must come from an FFL.

The NY State Police have stated that that is the way that they want it done. No legislation, just an order by a police organization.

Doesn't seem right to me.

 

[hotpig]

Brad

I was ticked off enough to do that the other day. After I though about it I realized the ***** already got his money from my customer. The only loser would be my guy.


The name and address that the package shipped from matches the same both on Auction arms and were the money order was sent. That is the name and address that I logged in.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad

I was ticked off enough to do that the other day. After I though about it I realized the ***** already got his money from my customer. The only loser would be my guy.


The name and address that the package shipped from matches the same both on Auction arms and were the money order was sent. That is the name and address that I logged in.

In the interest of CYA, you might tweak your receiving policy to say that you will receive guns, but only from sellers who provide a valid state-issued ID. You could also boldly state that all guns received without an ID will be turned over to the police for identification and processing.

At least it would relieve you of some liability should someone try to do something stupid. It would also put your customers on notice to do a bit of fact-checking before sending someone a bunch of their hard-earned money.

Brad

 

[TGT]

Brad, Morglan,

When I sell a rifle on an auction, I first let it be known that I will not ship until the funds are clear, and that I have received a signed and valid FFL copy. So, this has become the buyer's responsibility to supply it to me. I let him work it out with an FFL holder of his choice behind the scenes. I never become involved in the process. Once, I receive the current and valid FFL copy in the mail and the money order, then I ship the rifle to that dealer. The rifle has been paid for, and is legally out of my hands. If the buyer can't pass a back ground test to obtain the rifle, then it becomes the buyer and the FFL dealer's headache. I'm in the clear, and at that point I am really no longer bound to the rifle. The dealer can keep it, or sell it, or turn it over to the authorities to be destroyed. It's no longer my rifle. I have never had this happen though, as anybody I have ever dealt with has been on the level, and smart enough to know they risk losing their money if they can't pass the required background check once the rifle arrives.

Morglan,
The chances are, that if you did everything legal as per Federal law and showed your post office the laws in print, they could probably care less, and they would ship the rifle to the lawfull FFL dealer. I have yet to run accross a Post Office worker that new the laws oputright. I have ALWAYS had to show them a printed copy of the USPS and ATF shipping laws. They then simply make a copy of the FFL copy you are holding, and ship it with no further hassle. I doubt that the NY State police's laws are mandatory. Worse thing the Post Office could do to you is refuse to ship it.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Nothing illegal about what you are trying to do. If that was the case gunbroker.com would not exist.

 

[Slugless]

Ressurect

Thread resurrection time:

I received a rifle today bought from an FFL in Georgia (I'm in Texas). It went to my local FFL & then to me.

The rifle is defective. I will return it.

Legally I can ship it back to the GA FFL via USPS (or whoever). My questions are:

1. Do I need to include a photocopy of my TX driver's license in the shipment?
2. Do I need a copy of his FFL to include in the package or to show to the USPS?

Sounds like I should print out the ATF & USPS regs to take with to the post office. The BATF regs are easy enough to find, I couldn't find anything on the USPS site.

Thanks!

 

[Rob62]

Slugless,

You should include a copy of your drivers license or other ID along with the firearm. Because, as mentioned above, the receiving dealer will need to enter the gun back into his books and show where it came from.

Also to make things go smoothly where you ship the firearm from (USPS, UPS, FedEX, etc) - you should have a copy of the FFL that the firearm is going to. Otherwise how would the customer service rep. know for sure it is going to a legitimate FFL.

FWIW - No federal laws require either of these things. But they are practical common sense issues to help make the transaction go smoothly.

HTH,
Rob

 

[Slugless]

Cool. It sure seems like a good idea, glad to have a clear answer.

Thank you.