Why are FFL's often reluctant to receive from non-licensees?

[bushmaster1313]

In assembling my personal collection (more than I need--less than I want) I have noticed an increased reluctance of FFL's to receive from a non-FFL.

What are the FFL's concerned about?

From a practical point of view the receiving FFL cannot return it to the non-FFL shipper, but so what?

BTW. What does an FFL do if they receive a gun with no way to identify the seller and no return address?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Because if the recipient of the firearms fails the NICS check, the FFL has a gun that they now cannot dispose of, without waiting for either the recipient to relinquish it to them, for the period of time allowed for the law to allow them to keep the firearm and dispose of it, or for the original seller to come and get the gun back (if it is legal for the FFL to transfer it to them) or for the original seller to find an FFL to receive the returned gun.

Also, the FFL needs to log in to his bound book who the gun came from and address it came from but there is no requirement for them to verify the information.

 

[RhinoDefense]

I need to record certain criteria per federal law from them when they send firearms to me. Not everyone understands this nor complies with this. If I accept a firearm and do not properly log it, I could lose my FFL and my business. I will not allow that to happen. Period.

Ownership is also questionable. Does the sender actually legally hold title to it or is it just an upset spouse looking to get even and get rid of their husband's heirloom rifles? Was it used in an unsolved murder or other crime where the weapon wasn't recovered and they are trying to get rid of it?

And no, I can't return the firearm to the sender because I have no clue if that's whom actually owns the weapon. If I receive a firearm with no way to ID the seller/sender/owner and no return address, I call my local ATF field office and surrender the firearm to them. Out of my hands and not my problem. They can figure it out.

There is the legal aspect of the information I need and then there is my company policy of additional information I want. Yes it's needs versus wants. If you want to send the gun to me to be transfered to someone, you need to do exactly X. I'm not a tyrant, but I like certain information to cover bases, protecting both my business and you as the owner/sender.

I've had just about everything sent to me. Unregistered NFA firearms, silencers, home made guns (term used loosely), firearms with loaded chambers, pistols with human blood, hair, and brain on them, etc.

 

[Bubba613]

I need to record certain criteria per federal law from them when they send firearms to me. Not everyone understands this nor complies with this. If I accept a firearm and do not properly log it, I could lose my FFL and my business. I will not allow that to happen. Period.

Ownership is also questionable. Does the sender actually legally hold title to it or is it just an upset spouse looking to get even and get rid of their husband's heirloom rifles? Was it used in an unsolved murder or other crime where the weapon wasn't recovered and they are trying to get rid of it?

None of that precludes accepting from a private individual. Nor does accepting only from a dealer guarantee those things wont happen.

I think the majority of the time dealers wont accept from a non dealer because they dont know the law.

 

[Bubbles]

If they don't it's because they have had problems in the past. These can include:
- Seller didn't include full name and street address for A&D book. I can't log in "J Smith" at a Mailboxes Etc. Box XXX. Well I could, but ATF would have a fit.
- Seller didn't include who purchased the gun.
- Seller didn't ship adult signature required, which means UPS/FedEx/USPS left the thing on my porch while I was out. (To be fair, I've had dealers do this also.)
- Seller shipped a handgun USPS. :banghead:
- Seller shipped ammo with (or even in) the gun.
- Seller ships unregistered NFA gun.

Problems with the buyer are easier to resolve. If the buyer decides for some reason that the gun wasn't as advertised, he needs to work that out with the seller. If the gun needs to go back, I'm getting paid shipping and I need a recipient FFL.

If the buyer fails NICS there are two options: work out returning the gun to the buyer, or we consign and sell the firearm and give the money to the buyer, less any consignment and auction fees. We won't transfer it to the buyer's wife/girlfriend/parent/kid/etc. as that screams straw purchase.

 

[RhinoDefense]

None of that precludes accepting from a private individual.

Yes it does. If I don't have the information I need to accept the firearm I can't accept it.

Nor does accepting only from a dealer guarantee those things wont happen.

I've had many problems from individuals but not a single problem from an FFL.

I think the majority of the time dealers wont accept from a non dealer because they dont know the law.

Most FFLs that I know who don't accept from individuals is because they are a pain to deal with.

 

[Bubba613]

I've never not had proper info on a gun. Sometimes it was just the mailing label. But that's OK. Again, just because it comes from an individual does not preclude the dealer from logging it.

I can't speak to your problems. Just this morning I had a gun arrive. When I faxed my FFL I wrote on it specifically Send Premises Address only.
Instead of that, they sent it to my house. Additionally they did not send it Adult Signature Required, nor did they put insurance on it. The package was clearly labeled coming from a gun dealer. And it was dropped on my front porch and spent the night there. I only retrieved it because the customer alerted me the gun had been delivered. This isn't the first time it's happened. Nor the fifth.

 

[RhinoDefense]

Sometimes it was just the mailing label. But that's OK.

That's is not acceptable nor proper.

Again, just because it comes from an individual does not preclude the dealer from logging it.

Now you're changing what you said.

 

[snubbies]

Right Info

Rhino;

What is the right info you need to accept a handgun from a non-dealer?? Most of the info you get on the gun S/N Model comes after you get the gun. I checked with ATF there is no federal regulation that governs, other than shipping restrictions, the purchase of a handgun or long gun from a non-ffl across State Lines. Within States lines is governed by any State Regs. I accept purchases from non-FFL's knowing it is a risk. That will end the first time I get burned. You had better Log in any firearms you acquire, for resale.

 

[Birch Knoll]

That's is not acceptable nor proper.

Maybe not to you. But it's sufficient under the law, is it not?

 

[RhinoDefense]

A mailing label is not identification of a person.

 

[dprice3844444]

when people do this,request that they send a photocopy of their drivers license and a phone contact number

 

[pbratton]

I request a copy of the seller's ID in advance of providing my FFL for shipping.

In the past, I have received firearms with no clue where they came from or who they belong to. So, if the individual will not provide me with a color copy/image of their Goverment issued ID, I will not handle the transfer at all.

It may sound petty to those who are not dealers, but I do not wish to explain the the ATF why I have a firearm on my books that I have no clue where it came from.

 

[bikemutt]

My local FFL of choice requires the information below for non-FFL shippers:

Full Name
Residential Address (not a PO Box or mailing center)
Phone Number
Copy of your Driver’s License.
Copy of email or a bill of sale which details the final purchase price of the firearm.

He has mentioned to me that in spite of his requests, he receives non-compliant shipments from time to time.

One handgun he received for me was shipped by a non-FFL USPS flat-rate, he just shook his head :banghead:

 

[MtnCreek]

Dealers do it too. Purchased a shotgun here a couple months ago. Seller seemed like a great guy. He used a local ffl for shipping. UPS droped it off at the gate (in puplic ROW). No adult sig required.

I request a copy of the seller's ID in advance of providing my FFL for shipping.

That's a pretty good idea.

 

[Bubba613]

That's is not acceptable nor proper

A mailing label is not identification of a person.

Please cite the relevant regulations that would necessitate identifying the person selling/transferring the gun. Please cite the reg that states which forms of identification are required.

I go back to what I said: Dealers don't want to do this because they don't know the law.

 

[skipjack]

478.125e is the part that references that, Bubba.

 

[Bubba613]

It does not specify identifying the source of the firearm, nor what is an acceptable documentation.

 

[chhodge69]

Does the sender actually legally hold title to it

What is this title thing you speak of? None of the guns I used to have, back before that horrible boating accident, had a title like my car.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There is no Federal law that specifies the person delivering the gun to the FFL must be "identified" by any proof document. The requirement to verify identity via documentation is only required for transfer TO a non-licensee, not guns received FROM non-licensees. Feel free to post an applicable Federal statute that says otherwise. The statute only requires the name and address of the person the FFL received the gun from - the statute does not require any verification of that information. A return mailing label is perfectly sufficient to fulfill the requirements of Federal law.

 

[Bubba613]

Thank you.
Only slight correction: Name and address or FFL number of person sending gun.
But otherwise spot on.

 

[Birch Knoll]

NavyLCDR has it right. As usual.

 

[bikemutt]

From a practical standpoint though, if the receiving FFL has only a name and address of the shipper and no "proof" document, the buyer flunks NICS and says bummer, send it back, so sorry. If it turns out the shipper fabricated a name and address, or maybe just croaked, where does that leave the FFL?

 

[Bubbles]

In that case we are not legally permitted to send the firearm back to the non-FFL seller. It must go to another dealer for transfer back to the seller.

If the buyer can't find the seller, or the seller doesn't want it back, or the buyer flunks NICS and doesn't want to go through the appeals process, then the gun gets consigned for the buyer. Legally, it's not mine, and while the buyer owns it he can't take posession of it.

 

[Birch Knoll]

where does that leave the FFL?

He's got a gun that belongs to a customer to whom it cannot be transferred. The FFL's got no skin in the game. The customer has to figure out what to do with the gun, and the options do not include having it transferred to his wife/girlfriend/buddy/sibling/cousin/etc.

Maybe he can get the seller to accept a return; the buyer certainly knows who he bought it from. Maybe not. He can have the FFL sell it on consignment. Or the FFL might make an offer to purchase it, probably at a steep, steep discount.

In any case, the FFL isn't really in a jam.