Why are hard cast bullets so great and FMJ so bad?

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Typically FMJ ammo is prohibited for use whlie hunting(it is in NH). However a hardcast lead bullet will perform much the same as an FMJ while getting pass for use while hunting.

Other states may have different rules regarding FMJs and hunting.
 
Most jacketed bullets used in pistols are like Dairy Queen chocolate dipped ice cream cones; thin hard shell covering a very soft interior. Hard cast bullets a hard outside and inside. They don't deform very easily and that is one of the reasons why they penetrate so well in thick skinned and heavily boned game. Another reason is they usually have high sectional density because they are heavy for caliber. Yet another reason is they are fired at a velocity that does not result in the bullet material failing or deflection.
I vote this as best "cut to the chase" answer... at least in my humble opinion

Now hard cast and solids, thats another debate too
 
A proper hardcast for the purposes you mention (deep penetration in large critters) will be either a Keith-type semi-wad with flat meplat & a secondary "cutting" shoulder, or something similar with at least a flat meplat.

The difference in performance between that & an FMJ is that the round-nosed FMJ just pushes tissue aside as it passes through, while the flat meplat disrupts, cuts, and tears tissue as it travels & does more damage.

This is in general terms, and the Keith-style is usually considered more effective (efficient) on large game than a flat-nosed FMJ.
Denis
You're operating under several misconceptions. Firstly, material with regards to velocity is irrelevant. A handgun cannot operate at such high velocities that preclude the use of hard cast bullets. When matched with the proper hardness and diameter for the application, they can easily run in excess of 2000fps. Even as much as 1400-1600fps without a gas check. In that regard, jacketed bullets have no advantage. Due to friction, cast bullets run faster for a given weight/pressure.

Construction. A bullet made of a single material will always be cheaper to produce and easier to keep intact than one made from one or more. To make a jacketed bullet that does the same job (not better) as a proper hardcast bullet costs a great deal more. With zero return. It won't be any tougher, not for revolver applications.

Move up to bronze like the punch bullet or CEP solid and you have something but again, they cost a lot more. In the case of CEP's, exponentially more. Again, with no return on performance.

The reason hardcast bullets are marketed as better is because they are better. Elmer Keith proved it 80yrs ago, Veral Smith brought the idea into the 21st century but some people still don't believe it.
IMO those 2 posts sum it up pretty well. The sharp shoulder and flat meplat of a well made SWC bullet does all the work for you.
 
The way some folks speak of black bears, one would think that they are clad in rolled homogenous armor and have organs lined with Kevlar. :p
Those people have never shot a Black Bear or see a Black Bear shot close up. A lot of posts on the Internet forums are regurgitated over and over to agree with everyone else and to sound smart. (not aimed at anyone here, just in general and I hate having to say that just to keep from hurting anyone's feelings!!!)
 
I'm no ballistic expert, but I can testify that the deer I've shot with a 4 5/8 inch 45Colt using medium velocity hard cast flat points are done for immediately; not so with jhp's.
 
Ok I'll bite,

If you take your version of how easily it is to make up the exact same type shape and profile of either they will do about the same things. That said though, in order to get the same velocity from the jacketed as you do from the lead bullet, your going to have increased pressure, which also results in more recoil and muzzle blast. To some this is not an issue to others it is a deal breaker. After that you DO get copper fouling with each and every shot fired using copper jacketed bullet, there is simply no way around it. There are ways to minimize it, with coatings, but you will still get fouling.

With lead you also get fouling, the difference is it is softer and when the fit is proper for the bore it is going down the next bullet usually will strip the first bit away resulting in less actual build up. However if the fit is not proper for the bore then you bet you can foul up a bore really quick.

Now in order to get a true Keith or WFN type jacketed bullet, your will have to have special dies and draw, and press the jackets carefully to avoid ruining them. These extra steps also impart work hardening to the copper used which would have to first be annealed in order to keep it from getting brittle. It might even have to be done more than once, depending on the operations involved to get them into the final shape. Each extra step adds cost which is passed on to the purchaser.

You mention in your example that the jacketed cost equal to or possibly even cheaper than the cast do. That is in one configuration only, not in the hundreds of different configurations in which cast can be had. With the jacketed you get what is mass produced, and the only reason they can compete with cast is that they sell tens of thousands more of one specific type. They have the tooling set up, and when they make a run of them it is in the lines of 50K or more at a time. When they pour up cast they do them in runs of 2-3K at a time, so mass produced verses more or less custom made will always be cheaper. Why some cost more is the advertising, and extra testing they had to do in order to get X brand and type of jacketed bullet to preform as it was designed. With cast, you get the same performance time and time again when using the tried and tested age old alloys.

As for the hardness of the jacketed verses cast, yep your correct, the jacketed are harder, and they are harder on your barrel, and it is harder to get out once it is deposited in the bore. As for smoke, yep some combinations of lube smoke worse than others, and some smoke with some powders worse than they do with other powders, but I'm like some of the others, I have a closet full of jacketed that are being less and less looked upon as I gradually work up loads for my cast. If I had started out handloading with cast bullets 40 something years ago, I probably would never have used a jacketed bullet in anything.
 
FMJ justt slips thru tissue

FMJ's whether RN or FN TC = flat nose truncated cone have any kinda l
edge where the bullet's shank - that rear part of the bullet full diameter.
The classic 'Keith' Style Semi-Wadcutter flat nose, truncated cone but
where the bullet seats there's a ledge, because the TC doesn't go full dia.
Elmer Keith style SWC also have certain grooves for lube along the shank
but Elmer called that 'ledge' the cutting edge of the bullet

Also the inside of a fmj is soft lead,

I've got .45 ACP & .45 Auto RIm Leadhead hardcast
200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 FPS bullets were only 8 cents ea.

R-
 
After reading through all of this I am staying away from attacking bears. I might attack beers! I will continue supporting my right keep and arm bears, but not with beers.
 
After reading through all of this I am staying away from attacking bears. I might attack beers! I will continue supporting my right keep and arm bears, but not with beers.

That's probably the most logical post in this thread. :D
 
Thanks 41 Mag
I always try to do my part in helping. Been shooting for a few years, not much problem with bears here is NW Ohio but I having been having a battle with a groundhog for 3 years. Think I'm going to call in air next.
Semper Ho & Gung Fi
 
I like beers but my bees do not like bears. For years I have use only revolvers to hunt and the SWC has been the most effective of anything I have used. I am sure SWC would be equally effective in other situations if the need should arise.
 
Not sure I'm understanding what y'all are saying on the effectiveness of fmj and tmj jacketed bullets? Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but I'm reading y'all think that they don't work well in animal for penetration and bone busting.
 
I've struggled to understand some of the benefits and shortcommings of different pistol-style bullets.

Besides low-cost plinking rounds at steel......I use my wheel guns of interest for general bear protection and pest control around my property. (also for SD - a different topic.)

MY ISSUE: I've wanted a 357 load that will be effective for coyotes, deer and black bears (sometimes we got some big 'un's hanging around) and be INTERCHANGEABLE, both with my revolvers.....and also work in my Marlin 357 Mountie, and Rossi Carbine - both with 18" bbl.

I felt the hard cast bullets may not stand up to max velocities in the carbines and could easily foul the bore (?). Kinda assumed I'd need at least gas checks.....but always figured half-jacketed 158 grain bullets with soft tips / flat nose to be the best of both worlds for these guns. (not hollow points)

Is this faulty logic? I need to get pointed in the right direction for that hunting bullet.
 
If I were carrying one of my 357's for hunting, woods SD, etc. I would not use any type expanding bullet. Rather I personally would want either a Keith type SWC or one of the varieties of the WFN in the 170 - 180.gr. range. It's my understanding some of the Rossi's are cantankerous about feeding SWC'S but my wife's feeds handloaded Lyman 358429's (173 gr. ) without a hitch. "Small" bullets such as 357's are going to be limited in their penetrative capabilities as it is, but if you start using expanding bullets you're really going to stifle penetration. (Read the first part of Post #8)

As far as leading is concerned it's not as huge of an issue as some make it out to be. Yes, some higher velocity lead bullets may lead the bore a bit. So what's the big deal if your SD load requires you to clean your rifle or handgun every couple dozen rounds? Most of us aren't going to shoot out SD loads by the dozens anyway, right? I run the above mentioned 173 gr. SWC at around 1700 fps with no earth shattering amounts of leading but if I was concerned about it I'd either cast or buy the same bullet with a gas check?

Hope this made at least some sense!

35W
 
forgive my ignorance, but I thought some of the jacketed bullet design was due to war rules about a bullet design. (geneva convention?) Something about not making bullets that smash up bones and internal organs making certain types of war wounds less common. I'm failing on the actual verbage, but I thought what's why we only use certain bullet types in military ammo. IE (and I may be way off here) that FMJ bullets were designed to "humanely" incapacitate an opponent, not turn them into hamburger like the old lead balls did in the civil war era

While hunting ammo is designed to drop the game. it's designed to smash bones and organs, in order to put the animal down as fast as possible? That there's no real need for a copper jacket except to provide a little bit of gliding surface so avoid leading?

my .02
 
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My 2% of a buck.

In the woods...where your adversary may be big enough and strong enough to kill you and wants you dead just because you're alive...the best thing that a bullet can do is penetrate. It's more important than the size of the permanent wound channel or any silliness like "Energy Dump" or coefficients of friction.

In these instances, you want penetration and the ability to break heavy bone and keep going...hopefully in a straight line...to cut blood vessels and disrupt major organs.

FMJ bullets don't do that as well as a SWC or one of the new "Sledge Hammer" designs with wide meplats.

In short, you want a heavy, solid projectile that cuts tissue along its path...and you want it punch all the way though and out the other side if possible. Two holes bleeds faster than one. Two holes let more air in than one. Solid, heavy SWCs are more efficient killers than one would suspect by looking at the paper ballistics.
 
Bear Loads seems the thread theme

S&W 625 5" bbl.
Barnes XPB Xtreme Penetration Bullet
.45 Auto Rim 225 gr.HP @ 940 FPS
all copper bullet retains 100% weightt
Note: the bullet can't be used in .45 ACP
because it's not as dense as a lead/copper jacket
Barnes also offers 185 gr.TAC XP
CorBon DPX uses the same Barens HP in 185 gr & 165 gr.

I've also got a bunch of .45 ACP & .45 AR with
Leadhead hardcasst 200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 fps 5" bbl.
probably mentioned that in a prior post but it works


Marlin 1894 .45 Colt 20" Octagonal Bbl.
Only ammo in stock is:
Barnes Vortec all copper said to expand 2x over bore size
200 g.r @ 1,000 FPS not a +P velocity is from a 5.5" Bbl.
so outta the Marlin it's going avove the speed of sound
& a 50 rd box of Cowboy 255 gr. FN/RN Lead @ 800 ? FPS
However my shooting buddy has a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt
and he's worked up some loads using hornady XTPs 300 gr. @ 1,300
outta his Blackhawk. I shot two of those and had a sore shoulder
for the first tiime in decades. XTP's expand 1.5X of bore dia.
and have a 'rep' for penentration

R-
 
I use 170g Keith style bullets in my 357 magnum as a "woods" load. It is pretty accurate and leading is not bad. I usually shoot no more than 20 or 25 rounds at a time when practicing with this load.
 
Most jacketed bullets used in pistols are like Dairy Queen chocolate dipped ice cream cones; thin hard shell covering a very soft interior. Hard cast bullets a hard outside and inside. They don't deform very easily and that is one of the reasons why they penetrate so well in thick skinned and heavily boned game.

This was one of those "Aha!, now I get it." moments for me many years ago. This and to lesser extent the ability to use a bit heavier bullets, at just a bit higher velocity at same pressure due to the leads lower friction, is pretty much the answer
 
Macchina, you aren't supposed to ask questions like that! Look, just turn off your brain and quit thinking before you get into real trouble. You have a series of conflicting replies which means somebody is lying whether they know it or not. It is also not allowed to say Elmer Kieth and Jeff Cooper were blowhards. One thing I like to think about is that bipeds are generally shot in the front while quadrapeds are shot from the side or rear. Self defense and hunting are two different things with different goals. For instance, every thing I ever shot with a 22 lr either dropped or ran off. This is perfect performance for self defense while being absolute proof that 22's are lousy for hog hunting. Things I try to determine in these discussions are whether the speakers have actually used the bullets in question in many encounters and if they are honest. There is little value in the advice of the inexperienced or dishonest. Unfortunately they are rampant on the internet including me occasionally.
 
As far as I can tell, Macchinas questions were answered for the most part based on experience.
What are your credentials? Did you know Keith and Cooper personally and can therefore refute their experience and writings?

35W
 
35 Whelen, For years I have read every Gun Digest I could lay my hands on. In one EK dissed the 30-06 as an elk rifle and also told how he put down 3 bull elk with one clip out of a Springfield. He said he used his special "root of the tail" aiming point. I find myself thinking that those two commentaries don't go together. In another issue of GD Col. Cooper talks about the brilliant future he for sees for the Bren 10. Both these guys set off red flags of doubt in their prose. Of course they aren't the only ones. If putting words on paper pays the rent you pull them out of somewhere. In all the answers given in this thread I am sure some are correct. I cast boolits. I read a lot about casting boolits. I reload with cast boolits. I shoot cast boolits. I love cast boolits. I am going to think and analyze what I hear and read and if it trips my baloney alarm, that's that. Townsen Whelen also had writings that seemed to come from Oscar Mayer.
 
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