Why are heavy flechettes not used?

[cluttonfred]

I have read here and elsewhere about the pros and cons of flechettes vs. buckshot, but the flechettes I have seen for shotgun use have always been very light needles or flat stampings. I have never understood why a smaller number of large flechettes would not be a good load.

For example, per www.brassfetcher.com an ordinary 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell shoots 12 00 buck pellets (70 grains each.360" diameter) at over 1200 FPS. That's 840 grains of lead.

I could easily imagine, say, a load of seven round or hexagonal cross-section heavy flechettes at 120 grains each. That should give the same muzzle velocity with much better performance (though a sparser pattern) at longer ranges as the heavier, more aerodynamic projectiles shout have flatter trajectories and more velocity and energy downrange. That's .38 special +P performance, with 3" or 3 1/2" shells it could move to .357 magnum performance or better.

Something like that might make a shotgun useful at beyond normal buckshot ranges, say out to 100 yards. So why, as far as I know, are heavy flechettes not used?

 

[SDC]

Something sort of like this has been tried in the SCIMITAR load, which uses stamped flat "arrowhead"-style flechettes that have been sharpened at the tip. They have to be loaded by hand, which is probably one of the reasons they never really took off, but flechettes in general are looked on as "gimmicky"; for military use, the assumption is that a rifleman will be available to deal with threats that can't be handled with a shotgun loaded with buckshot. For civilian use, dedicated self-defence ammo is rare because a prosecutor would paint you as Hitler's evil twin for using "babykiller death spikes", or some such nonsense.

 

[GunTech]

They have been tried. Look at the Librascope and Javelin shotgun flechettes. Stability seems to be the biggest issues, and terminal performance was less that ideal. Research indicated that with the low velocities of shotgun flechettes, the wound channel was directly proportional to the width of the tail fins, hence AAI's development of the SCMITR flechette shown above.

The main issue with all shotgun flechettes, besides lethality and accuracy, is cost. Spherical lead shot is about the cheapest load that can be produced.

 

[cluttonfred]

Still, short of the FRAG-12 explosive ammo short a few years ago, I would think some sort of heavy flechette would help extend the range of a shotgun and that could be useful in some circumstances.

Off-topic, but I have often thought something somewhere in between a 40mm grenade launcher and a 12 gauge shotgun, but semi-auto with a box magazine and firing from an open bolt (change out magazines for different purpose in a snap, never a round in the chamber to unload) would be quite handy on a battlefield. Jungle or urban combat...keep the buckshot loaded. Bad guys are 200 yards away...switch it out for explosive anti-personnel rounds. Guarding a checkpoint against vehicles...mini-HEAT rounds or saboted tungsten steel penetrators.

 

[sargenv]

Well, there are the Sabot loads by BRI (later Winchester and all others), they increased the range of a single projectile for shotguns. Unfortunately now it required a rifled barrel so that's all you could shoot out of it with any kind of usefulness.

Shotguns have always been a close support firearm. If you want increased range, switch to a rifle.

 

[Hawk]

As I recall there was a TANSTAAFL effect noted. Although the range was extended some they also became near useless at short range as they tended to upset when first clearing the barrel and it took some distance before they'd stabilize due to the fins.

Close in, they'd impact, if not sideways, at least not pointed correctly and didn't penetrate much of anything.

But, my memory has failed me before.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It seems to me the basic problem with a 12 bore is lack of sufficient bore size to manage a payload heavy enough to do much good with the kinds of scenarios/projectiles you describe. That plus the fact that it is still a shoulder-fired weapon, and is therefore limited in its 'throw weight' and velocity by recoil considerations, limits how much can be done with the 12 bore given existing technology.

I did some experimentation a few years ago to try and push the useful range of buckshot out to 100 yards. What I discovered was that while it was possible to get useful patterns at 100 yards, lack of penetration at that range became a problem even with 000 buckshot. In order to make a shotgun a useful weapon at anything beyond rifled slug range, something very different from existing projectiles is going to have to constitute the payload. That's not to say someone shouldn't try new ideas, just that revisiting old ideas is not likely to prove worthwhile without some major changes taking place.

lpl/nc

 

[Beagle-zebub]

For example, per www.brassfetcher.com an ordinary 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell shoots 12 00 buck pellets (70 grains each.360" diameter) at over 1200 FPS. That's 840 grains of lead.

00 buck is .330; 000 is the one that is .360. I've heard of 8 pellets of 000 buck in a 2.75" shell.

 

[TrapperReady]

In order to make a shotgun a useful weapon at anything beyond rifled slug range, something very different from existing projectiles is going to have to constitute the payload.

When these discussions come up, it reminds me of watching a toddler trying to smash a square peg into a round hole. Shotguns are excellent weapons with a maximum effective range of around 75-100 yards, depending upon the user skill. At distances under 50 yards, they're great for all manner of critter, and there's nothing more versatile.

However, many of the attributes that make them such effective close-range weapons conspire against them to limit that range. Fortunately, we have plenty of other weapons which fill the long, longer, and longest-range roles.

I'm a civilian. If I am hunting in heavy cover or have an HD need, the shotgun fills it. If I'm hunting in more open areas, then I use a rifle.

In the military, the shotgun is more of a specialty weapon. If a soldier with a shotgun encounters an enemuy out past slug or buck range, then other soldiers nearby have the proper weapons to do so.

I can use a pair of pliers as a wrench and it kind of works, but not as well as a tool designed specifically for the job. And, in the end I'm usually sorry that I did.

 

[JesseL]

I'd be curious what you could do with a APFSDS style projectile scaled down for a 3.5" 12Ga shotshell, especially if you engineered the projectile for for tissue damage.

Keep the weight around 300-450 grains, construct it with an aluminum tip and fins and a tungsten center section designed to break in half on impact, push it around 2000fps or better...

 

[Milkmaster]

Back to the original post question...

Sounds to me like basic aerodymanics. A round projectile like buckshot will go where it is heaved like a baseball no matter what orientation exists when it exits the barrel. Try and do the same thing with something flat like stamped metal, and it will go every which way with not much velocity.

Think of it like a frisbee. It goes great if thrown right. Launch it in a different way and no telling how it will go including not very far.

 

[goon]

They did a show on Mythbusters with a smoothbore cannon when they were doing their pirate special...
Their "research" indicated that larger, heavier irregular shaped objects penetrated better than smaller ones.
For example, they tried steak knives at something like 25 yards on a pig and got noting but superficial cuts.
On the same pig, heavy metal stakes made quite a mess.

My point is that I think maybe with heavier flechettes that weren't just little cookie cutter stampings, maybe you could get something out of them. Even if you only fit 7 or so in a shotshell, that isn't too bad.
If they could penetrate light cover or body armor better, it might be worthwhile.

At the same time, it would probably be way more expensive than just loading your shells with round lead balls.

 

[Zoogster]

There have been such projectiles. The ACR program had a couple flechette designs tested by the military as a primary small arm. It was not a shotgun per say, but it was designed to fire large flechette projectiles per round.
The pros didn't outweigh the cons for military use.
One example is the ammunition for the Steyr ACR. It fired 3 of the pictured flechettes per round.

Here is a picture of the ammunition from the wiki page on it:

It was a promising idea, and such a projectile designed for a shotgun would be worth considering for limited roles.

However it really is a solution for a problem that does not exist. If you are hunting at range with a shotgun a slug works fine, and you can have better control on the lethality of each projectile.
If you want a platform for range you use a rifle.

The best use of such a setup is insuring a hit at range, a hit that should definately wound, and do so faster in a limited amount of time.
However why would you reduce immediate lethality for increased wound probability at range as a civilian? You don't want to be sure to wound your prey as a hunter, you want to humanely drop it as quick as possible. You don't usualy need to shoot at range as a civilian for self defense, and for situations that give time to aim a single projectile is ideal at range.
They will have lower performance than buckshot at close range, though they will have much greater penetration, so would perform well against thin cover or soft body armor.


An increased performance measure is to spiral the tail fins or put them at great angles. The wound channel created is then the entire diameter of the tail and not just horizontal and lateral cuts the diameter of the tail. The terminal performance of each flechette is then similar to a FMJ round the diameter of the tail fins, except the round has greater penetration.

The difference in the wound from straight fins and fins at a high angle that impart spin is drastic. The ones at a great angle though have higher drag, and require more difficult manufacture as each fin needs to be at the exact same angle to keep them accurate.

There is a number of flechette rifle designs that use similar projectile types.

The amount of detailed manufacturing per round necessary to maximize performance would give a very high price tag for such ammunition.
Each round would have as much detail as several traditional rounds and requires close tolerances for accuracy at range.
For the very limited roles of such a round that dramatic cost increase would keep it from being a profitable round to make.

There is other design potentials. You could make it a projectile with triangular shaft of 3 sides that came to a tapered point rather than a cylinder shape . Similar to a 3 sided knife blade. You could then have each side sharped to a razor's edge. You could also sharpen the fins. The penetration would be greatly enhanced.

 

[Sunray]

They're illegal in most places.
"...say out to 100 yards..." Nope. You still have a pattern. Said pattern would be too big to reliably hit anything at 100. Buskshot isn't reliable past normal shot distances either.

 

[lions]

It sounds like we are trying to make an airplane fly underwater... we have submarines for that, I call them rifles.

 

[goon]

This is sort of a shotgun I guess.
Smooth bore and all.. .

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm

 

[Zoogster]

This is sort of a shotgun I guess.
Smooth bore and all.. .

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm

Yeah i thought of mentioning those, but those are not really flechettes in the tradional sense. It is a single APFSDS round, or basicly an arrow in a sabot. A miniature version of a tank kinetic penetrator.
When he asked about flechettes I knew he meant multiple projectile payloads.

They're illegal in most places.
"...say out to 100 yards..." Nope. You still have a pattern. Said pattern would be too big to reliably hit anything at 100. Buskshot isn't reliable past normal shot distances either.

Actualy I have seen them pattern remarkably well at that distance, still the size of a torso around 100 yards. They are also legal in over half of the US.
Buckshot is a sphere, a sphere has a totaly different ballistic coeffecient and is not even in the same ballpark of remaining energy after a few dozen yards. It also patterns very differently as a sphere.

This is an image someone else took in another active thread supposedly at 23 yards:

This is the handloaded flechette fired from a Norinco 20'' barreled coachgun w/ full choke. Entry measured 1.3 inches by RCBS reloading calipers. sheet measured 2'x2'x1/2'' @ 23-1/2 yards

Pictured in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366659

If they are well put together rounds and flechettes of close tolerances and not the novelty junk you commonly come across they pattern exceptionaly well.

 

[Jack2427]

OK, my .02: These were actually tried in VN. There was an experimetal round issued to Navy Seals. The idea was that they would penetrate the foilage better than buckshot. The concept was a complete flop, and those rounds are now (very pricey) collectors items.
There are a couple of specialty makers who offer them, also very pricey. I bought 20 of them about 7 years ago, just to try them out. They were worse than useless. Asolutely no pattern-I mean none past 15 yards or so. No penetration, no advantage whatsoever.
Making the flechette heavier would only limit the number in the cartridge, and further reduce the "pattern". Better one should just throw them.
There were variations that did work. There was flechette round for the 105mm howitzer, intended for last ditch defense of a battery position. The gunners I have talked to either did not use them, or, understandably, did not have a good idea how effective they were. On the other hand, those gunners used them as a last resort, and were around for me to talk to. Another flechette concept was for heavier flechettes to be air dropped from high altitude, covering large beaten zone. I have no idea how effective they were, but if one hit you, it would absolutely penetrate from head to foot. Would ruin my day. On the other hand a HE bomblet(weighing the same) falling near you would take you and anyone within 15 meters out. So the flechette semed to have died a natural death, doing nothing something else could not do better and cheaper. Maybe if we fired them from a longbow?????

 

[ShOcKeRpb]

The problem with the flechette used in VN was they were focused on packing more flechettes in to try and get greater lethality, or packing them too lose. When you pack flechettes in in an up/down orientation, the upside-down projectiles will push the foreward-facing ones out of pattern. Also, if you have the flechettes just loose inside the shell, they will not align parallel to the barrel, also destroying any shot pattern.