scythefwd, marketing enters into it. Let's face it, 90% of the shooters would rather have a double-gun. Therefore, the manufacturers will put a premium on them. Sorta' like GM, Chevy vs Cadillac. Other than the grille, hood ornament, interior accouterments and name on the valve covers... Oh well, you get the picture...
why are O/U or SxS shotguns so expensive?
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JohnBT
Member
"but the materials and build technology should only cost 1.75x what the single shot does since you don't have to mill out a second frame, locking mechanism, rail, stock, or forearm."
Why haven't any of the gun makers figured this out yet?
Why haven't any of the gun makers figured this out yet?
oneounceload
member
You really have no idea what goes into making a shotgun it seems........and if you think $450 is a lot of money to spend, you need to add another zero. Punmps guns are built like a jack handle - and they handle the same way. Cheap SxS or O/Us also have sewer pipes for barrels with no balance or handling worth a damn - that's why they are so cheap at $450. If you want to be happy with a 200 pump, so be it - have at it and enjoy it.
Quality costs, and the fitting, top-drawer materials, hand finishing, proper heat treatment, etc. all factor into it. Let's not forget $5.00/gallon fuel, dollar/Euro discrepancy, the lack of human hands making a pump compared to a SxS or O/U.
Using your argument, a Ferrari should cost the same as a Chevy. Maybe you should go to a GOOD gun store and handle some decent Spanish SxS guns from AyA, Arrietta, etc., and then compare them to the 2x4 jack handle SxS from Turkey, Russia and Brazil.
Fit, finish, balance and material quality become really evident really quickly
Quality costs, and the fitting, top-drawer materials, hand finishing, proper heat treatment, etc. all factor into it. Let's not forget $5.00/gallon fuel, dollar/Euro discrepancy, the lack of human hands making a pump compared to a SxS or O/U.
Using your argument, a Ferrari should cost the same as a Chevy. Maybe you should go to a GOOD gun store and handle some decent Spanish SxS guns from AyA, Arrietta, etc., and then compare them to the 2x4 jack handle SxS from Turkey, Russia and Brazil.
Fit, finish, balance and material quality become really evident really quickly
scythefwd
Member
one ounce, it appears almost everybody in this thread have brought up a quality shotgun. I have repeatedly said I AM NOT TALKING HIGH QUALITY SHOTGUNS here. I even brought up stoegers to make the point...i never said they were quality guns. I also mentioned coach guns, which aren't 30 inch barrels in gerneral. I'm talking about guns that you take hunting in thickets, not open fields. Somethings that can get scratched up, dinged, and the oqner not really mind. I know if I'd put a scratch on that parker, my step mom would probably used it on me.
I repeat, I am not talking about high quality guns, just durable.
I repeat, I am not talking about high quality guns, just durable.
Sauer Grapes
Member
Well there's the problem right there. There's no such thing as a cheap, durable SxS or O\U. Not for $400 or less anyway. :banghead:
One could ask, why are sneakers so expensive since they pay some guy in china $10 a day and he puts together 20 pairs in a day. It probably cost less than $5 to make them, but we pay $50 and up to buy them.
Some of it's because WE WANT THEM!!! Supply and demand baby, supply and demand.
scythefwd
Member
Old Unc,
I appreciate being called a troll. Might want to do a little checking up on me before you start using that label. Just because I don't share the opinion that a double shotgun has to be a work of art or that it requires massive amounts of hand fitting (which is not the same as assembly, hand fitting is the shaping of pieces by hand to get a correct fit and is a sign of lower manufacturing tolerances in general).
I asked why they were so expensive. The answers I received don't hold up to reason for the most part.
Hand fitting is an excuse because very little of it is actually required.
2 guns in one explains some of it.
Marketing/supply and demand appears to be the most of it.
I still say an inexpensive double could be brought to market. I say this based on a traditional/CNC machining background. I noticed that the mere mention of an inexpensive double raises peoples hackles though, so it would probably fail in reality.
Why, because a double "needs" to cost 700+ to be considered good. Look at the posts in this thread, a stoeger isn't going to be used much or it won't hold up... Lets be honest with ourselves, there is a bit of gun snobbery in the shotgun world. Especially in what is considered a niche market. Over/Unders and Side by Sides are mostly seen as a competition type setup. You see them heading out in to the fields for dove and quail. They all have these 30" barrels, many with fixed chokes in them. I'll be honest, if I get my hands on an older savage, it's getting cut to 22" or so. I'll be used for squirrel, maybe ducks at close range. There is another market out there. Hell, I'll probably use my dads SxS with slugs for deer hunting this year if I get out there. I asked why they were so expensive, and I still don't get it too much. People are willing to pay for them I guess. That would explain the "if you think 400 is expensive, look at this 4.5k one" and the " you must not have ever handled a good one before (though the Parker I shot would probably go for between 10k and 100k depending on what grade it was at auction easily)" comments.
So we have it down to 400 is the cost of entry and they are expensive because that is what the market will bear. Anyone got a clue where I can find one that doesn't have 28"+ barrels with a serviceable stock (doesn't have to be presentation grade walnut.... just whole and uncracked) that I can beat up for a fairly inexpensive price? Or am I just going to have to cut one down?
I appreciate being called a troll. Might want to do a little checking up on me before you start using that label. Just because I don't share the opinion that a double shotgun has to be a work of art or that it requires massive amounts of hand fitting (which is not the same as assembly, hand fitting is the shaping of pieces by hand to get a correct fit and is a sign of lower manufacturing tolerances in general).
I asked why they were so expensive. The answers I received don't hold up to reason for the most part.
Hand fitting is an excuse because very little of it is actually required.
2 guns in one explains some of it.
Marketing/supply and demand appears to be the most of it.
I still say an inexpensive double could be brought to market. I say this based on a traditional/CNC machining background. I noticed that the mere mention of an inexpensive double raises peoples hackles though, so it would probably fail in reality.
Why, because a double "needs" to cost 700+ to be considered good. Look at the posts in this thread, a stoeger isn't going to be used much or it won't hold up... Lets be honest with ourselves, there is a bit of gun snobbery in the shotgun world. Especially in what is considered a niche market. Over/Unders and Side by Sides are mostly seen as a competition type setup. You see them heading out in to the fields for dove and quail. They all have these 30" barrels, many with fixed chokes in them. I'll be honest, if I get my hands on an older savage, it's getting cut to 22" or so. I'll be used for squirrel, maybe ducks at close range. There is another market out there. Hell, I'll probably use my dads SxS with slugs for deer hunting this year if I get out there. I asked why they were so expensive, and I still don't get it too much. People are willing to pay for them I guess. That would explain the "if you think 400 is expensive, look at this 4.5k one" and the " you must not have ever handled a good one before (though the Parker I shot would probably go for between 10k and 100k depending on what grade it was at auction easily)" comments.
So we have it down to 400 is the cost of entry and they are expensive because that is what the market will bear. Anyone got a clue where I can find one that doesn't have 28"+ barrels with a serviceable stock (doesn't have to be presentation grade walnut.... just whole and uncracked) that I can beat up for a fairly inexpensive price? Or am I just going to have to cut one down?
JohnBT
Member
"The answers I received don't hold up to reason for the most part."
No, the problem is that you haven't been listening. That's been the problem. You asked a question and then ignored the answers. Why did you ask? Hmmm?
John
No, the problem is that you haven't been listening. That's been the problem. You asked a question and then ignored the answers. Why did you ask? Hmmm?
John
oneounceload
member
Sounds like you are trying to talk yourself into justifying a cheap shotgun as equal to a well-made one. If your budget is tiny, then perhaps a basic pump would suit you better. BTW, cutting off the barrels to 22" will really hamper any form of swing dynamics the Savage might have had, as well as leave you with no choke constriction for ducks, even at close range
Are there cheap SxS guns out there? Sure there are. Are they worth owning? Not in my opinion - YMMV. I would rather buy quality once, then junk repeatedly - again JMO, YMMV
Are there cheap SxS guns out there? Sure there are. Are they worth owning? Not in my opinion - YMMV. I would rather buy quality once, then junk repeatedly - again JMO, YMMV
oneounceload
member
And therein lies the conundrum - you don't get one without the other
I seem to understand very clearly the ops question... I went through the same problem a few years ago. I decided a little double gun would be fun and a good tool for brush,snakes, squirells, doves, ect... but I'm no so into them to pay thousands for a shotgun, I have guns that expensive I just don't shotgun hunt in any way that a fancy gun wouldn't get torn up.. I mainly water fowl and turkey hunt...the weather suck during both those seasons here. So the only thing i'd use my little double for is just messing around, with birds and pests... it didn't jusify a custom rig. But I do like them an wanted one. So after reading what crap stoegers are and not finding anything else, I waited till a found a cheap one that was like new and tried it..and for what I need it is the right quality level. It goes boom every time and I can hit doves very well with it.. so it's accurate enough.. I've even been known to shoot pretty well a the skeet range with it.... I refinished the stocks on mine and polished them out and they look like glass, I'll post a pick later...the point is you can get cheap autos, pumps, or doubles...the only place I disagree with the OP is that 400 new is cheap..and if you look used you can probably get one for 250...
au01st
Member
Guess I'll keep my crappy Stoeger, then. No, it's no Beretta, but it ain't no Daisy Red Ryder either, and it goes *bang* both times I pull the trigger.
au01st
Member
Gets the job done and doesn't mind getting banged around. Might refinish it this summer.
JohnBT
Member
Thread drift.
How about addressing why that Stoeger cost so much when it shouldn't have cost more than a cheap pump.
Just kidding, it's been addressed.
How about addressing why that Stoeger cost so much when it shouldn't have cost more than a cheap pump.
Just kidding, it's been addressed.
Double barrel guns, O/U or SxS are subject to a lot more wear than similar pump or semi auto guns. The act of loading and unloading a double gun wear on the same parts that effect lockup, and must be made in such a way as to give a similar life than pump and semis.
This is particularly true of guns used for competition. A trap gun can easily have its action opened and closed 10,000 times in a year, and that wear parts - the same parts that effect lockup. Solid action guns don't receive the same sort of wear, and the type of wear they do get doesn't typically effect lockup in the same way.
It should also be noted that demand and what the public will pay effects price. There are quality double made that are reasonably priced. But most makers target premium buyers, and those buyers pay more as much for status as quality. Anyone really believe that $10,000 Perazzi shoots better than a $2200 Browning?
This is particularly true of guns used for competition. A trap gun can easily have its action opened and closed 10,000 times in a year, and that wear parts - the same parts that effect lockup. Solid action guns don't receive the same sort of wear, and the type of wear they do get doesn't typically effect lockup in the same way.
It should also be noted that demand and what the public will pay effects price. There are quality double made that are reasonably priced. But most makers target premium buyers, and those buyers pay more as much for status as quality. Anyone really believe that $10,000 Perazzi shoots better than a $2200 Browning?
oneounceload
member
Yep, I do - especially when that Perazzi can be ordered exactly to your specifications and dimensions. They also are built, and will go longer, to be shot for hundreds of thousands of rounds without major repair - that is why they cost that much - they have a proven track record. Look at the Olympic shooters, about everyone from every country shoots the P gun - because it works every time............
Once you start to get in the $15K and up range, you are now paying for mostly cosmetics or the use of some exotic material
scythefwd
Member
gun, I hadn't thought about the effect on lockup. 10k rounds a year, my shotguns and rifles might see that in my lifetime. The only gun I own that will see that is my carry gun. I don't need a long life action, I just need one that can withstand the elements, which is what I meant by durable.
oneounceload
member
When you start to put 30,000+ per year (and more like 75,000), you will understand.......if you shoot 3 boxes a year, it really doesn't matter
Pete D.
Member
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Y'know....I have a number of SXSs and O/Us. No P guns (I just did buy a B gun for Trap). One thing that I have noticed - all of these guns are antiques or inexpensive - unscientifically, they all "feel" different when mounted and pointing than any of the pumps and semi-autos that I own. I am thinking that there is more involved with the Double guns than has been praised or criticized so far in this thread. I am thinking that comparisons to pumps and semis are inapt...the gun types are that different.
A Fiat and a Ferrari will both get you from Point A to Point B. Depending on the traffic, the Fiat might do it faster. Why does Ferrari charge so much money? It's just a car.
Saw a picture of Kim Rhode some years ago; she was standing next to a large basket/bin full of empty hulls - came up to her waist. Those were the shells she had fired in practice just that day.
Pete
A Fiat and a Ferrari will both get you from Point A to Point B. Depending on the traffic, the Fiat might do it faster. Why does Ferrari charge so much money? It's just a car.
Saw a picture of Kim Rhode some years ago; she was standing next to a large basket/bin full of empty hulls - came up to her waist. Those were the shells she had fired in practice just that day.
Pete
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I have to admit that I'm not a trap guy - my son is. They shoot tremendous number of rounds. I shoot a lot of 3 gun and 150 round on the shotgun is a busy weekend for me. My son will shoot four times that in a day. Of course that's trap loads versus 00 buck. I wonder how long those trap guns would last on a steady diet of 00 buck and slugs.
BTW, he's shooting a Landber 2097 with about 10k rounds through it and still running great with zero problems. It's his first trap gun and was meant to be an interim gun until we were sure he was going to stick with it. For the cost, it's been a stupendous investment (Under $600). Thinking about one for myself, since I'm not a serious enough clay pigeon shooter to justify plunking down a lot of coin for a trap gun.
BTW, he's shooting a Landber 2097 with about 10k rounds through it and still running great with zero problems. It's his first trap gun and was meant to be an interim gun until we were sure he was going to stick with it. For the cost, it's been a stupendous investment (Under $600). Thinking about one for myself, since I'm not a serious enough clay pigeon shooter to justify plunking down a lot of coin for a trap gun.
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