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Why do people say Glocks and other striker fired pistols are not Single Action?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Philo_Beddoe, Mar 5, 2010.

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  1. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    In order for the trigger to reset the slide has to "cock" or reset the striker.

    How is this any different then a single action BHP or 1911 with the exception that they have external hammers?

    A true double action semi auto does not need the slide to cock the hammer, if you dry fire a Berretta 92 and then pull the trigger without operating the slide the hammer cocks and releases itself. That is a true double action trigger. The slide does not need to operate or hammer pulled back manually to cock and fire the weapon.

    I know glock calls their pistols "safe action", but this almost sounds like a marketing strategy to get around police department bans on single action autos.
     
  2. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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  3. zhyla

    zhyla Member

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    Doesn't really matter what you call it. But I think the difference between a Glock and a 1911 is there is no case where a Glock with a round in the chamber can not be fired by pulling the trigger.
     
  4. Avizpls

    Avizpls Member

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    where as the 1911 is well known for randomly firing without any interaction on the trigger. 4srs?
     
  5. oasis618

    oasis618 Member

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    I think what he was getting at, however akwardly, was that the trigger on a 1911 can be pulled without the weapon firing because of the grip saftey as well as the manual safety.
     
  6. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    I understand wht you're saying although I regard Glock as DAO.

    Cycling the slide resets the trigger mechanism and keeps it under spring tension. The striker is not cocked, it's merely under some spring tension to keep the mechanism engaged. (Purists will disagree with me and say the striker is partially or half cocked.)

    Pressing the then trigger "cocks & drops" the striker.
     
  7. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    "I know glock calls their pistols "safe action", but this almost sounds like a marketing strategy to get around police department bans on single action autos."

    I am cynical enough to agree with this, but they are working from the basis that a Glock is not at full cock when at rest; the trigger stroke draws the striker back the remainder of its travel.

    The original importers of the XD described it as functionally single action, which is why you see few in police holsters even after Springfield took over and touted its safety features.

    The S&W Plastic M&P has been successfully promoted to goverment agencies even though its striker cam-back during the trigger stroke is very small. A tuned competitive gun like my Burwell is essentially single action.
     
  8. JoeSlomo

    JoeSlomo Member

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    Agree.


    Welcome back Jim!
     
  9. bds
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    bds Member

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    If you disassemble the Glock and actuate the trigger (reset the trigger by pushing forward on the connecting rod), you will see that Glock trigger needs to push back the striker pin (like cocking the hammer) for every shot.

    A single action trigger simply releases a hammer (striker pin) that was cocked. Glock trigger is not like this since it needs to push back (cock) the striker pin (hammer) with each shot.

    DA/SA trigger that has a decocker will shoot SA when hammer is cocked and shoot DA when the hammer is decocked.

    So essentially, Glock has a DAO trigger that feels light like a SA trigger with a short trigger reset. That's why it is a good match shooting pistol for shooting fast double taps that will group very close. Often, match shooters will "lighten" the trigger pull/release for this reason.
     
  10. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    yes it does in some situations

    some police depts do not allow single action triggers and in competition IDPA and IPSC divide pistols into SA and DA classes

    Why a single action Springfield XD is allowed to shoot production division (which requires a double action) in IPSC, but a Browning hi power is not, is beyond me.
     
  11. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    Then why do you have to rack the slide after you dry fire to reset the striker?

    Call it half double action or whatever, but its not a true double action in my opinon in the sense that all that is needed to fire it is to pull the trigger.

    Pre-set strikers and hammers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer.

    Examples of pre-set strikers are the Glock, Ruger SR9 and Smith & Wesson M&P pistols.
    Examples of pre-set hammers are the Kel-Tec P-32 and Ruger LCP pistols
    .
     
  12. Tilos

    Tilos Member

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    Watch this Animation...then you will know

    The glock slide resets the trigger mechanism.
    That's the reason the slide needs to be racked to dry fire.

    Watch this:

    http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Glock23/P2Glock.html

    The top view of the connector is what shows how the slide "resets" the trigger.

    It will answer any questions.:uhoh:
    Well, I guess not then:eek:
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  13. bds
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    bds Member

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    You are not resetting the striker, you are resetting the trigger.

    Unlike SA trigger like 1911, When you pull a Glock trigger, it stays pulled back - it does not return forward. Racking the slide resets the trigger ONLY, not the striker (hammer).

    Only when you pull back on the trigger, will you pull back on the striker then release to ignite the primer.
     
  14. DannyZRC

    DannyZRC Member

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    BDS, the striker is "half cocked" against the mechanism which connects it to the trigger. the trigger and striker are reset together.

    the people who thought up the terms double action and single action clearly never thought of an intermediate solution, which is what the glock is.

    I think, however, that most people care less about the mechanics of how the pistol works, but rather the the human interface factors. Trigger pull length/weight, tactile factors, wether or not certain functions are present like restrike or rechambering based on trigger pull.

    double/single action only have real meaning in this area because of a broad set of assumptions about the aformentioned factors historically tied to those mechanical configurations.
     
  15. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    That annimation also shows the striker not being reset until the slide has cycled too.
     
  16. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    That is not what the animation above shows

    The striker does not "cock" until the slide has cycled.
     
  17. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    After rethinking Glocks I think they are a modified action. Niether single or double action.

    The trigger does move the striker rearward before if fires, however i does not completely do it like a true double action.
     
  18. zhyla

    zhyla Member

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    No, I was saying that if there is a round in the chamber a Glock can always be fired. A 1911 may need to be cocked depending on whether you lowered the hammer or not. This is the fundamental difference between SA and DA/SA guns from a user's perspective.
     
  19. christcorp

    christcorp Member

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    They can word it any way they want to. But if you have a misfire due to a light strike on the primer, and you CAN'T simply pull the trigger AGAIN and strike the primer AGAIN, then it's NOT A DOUBLE ACTION PISTOL. It's that simple. Glocks are NOT double action pistols. You can argue that they're ALSO NOT SINGLE ACTION. That's fine. But that doesn't make them a Double Action pistol. Call it a hybrid. Call it a Semi-Double action pistol. Call it anything you want to. But you CAN'T call it a Double Action Pistol.
     
  20. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Member

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    /agreed

    Also I think the Springfield Armory XD is a true SA pistol. There is no cocking of the striker period as far as I know on the trigger pull, just release.
     
  21. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I remember when the Beretta 92 was a big deal in the '80s one of the major selling point (including to the military and police forces around the world) was the extreme versatility of its DA/SA external hammer design and the great safety of it.

    The 92 was my service pistol...and I think it still remains one of the greatest pistol ever designed.

    Maybe I do not get it but I really do not understand why in the world anybody would accept a non DA/SA autoloader as defensive sidearm.....how in the world police forces accepted the Glock pistols....accidental firings with Glocks do happen...they are not that uncommon....

    I only tolerate a non DA/SA pistol for my pocket piece (a Kel Tec P-11) because:

    1) There are not many choices in pocket pistols chambered for service calibers

    2) The very long and hard pull of the DAO trigger.

    I think people give too much importance to the trigger pull and creep (okay, I admit that some triggers in few cases are really horrendous)

    You learn to be accurate with the firearm you have (anybody that served in the military or police know that)..and, furthermore, we are talking about defence situations here not shooting matches...."center of mass" accuracy level at short distances.

    There are really no reasons to accept anything else than the efficiency and versatility of a modern SA/DA for defense pistols, IMHO.

    This is the reason why I consider a 1911 an old inferior design for carry use.

    I would not touch a Glock with a proverbial 10 feet pole...just looking at its trigger scares the hell out of me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  22. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    I remember the first time my father shot my Beretta 96FS. He engaged the manual safety and his face turned white! "Son I think there's a problem with your gun! When I put the safety on the hammer dropped!" He's a retired Marine, 100% combat disabled, and had never encountered a handgun equipped with a hammer drop safety.

    I carried an SA 9mm Star M43 Firestar for a few years, cocked & locked.

    After some research I chose the Glock 19 to replace it. It took awhile to become comfortable with it's "safe action" trigger, especially when holstering, so I can understand saturno_v's wariness. To this day I practice care when holstering it, but once it's properly holstered, I'm good. My finger is my safety.
     
  23. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Shawn...I understand that you can handle it with care..however if the market offer me an even more versatile and safe system at the same price/quality/weight level...why not??

    Glock accidental discharge are a reality......yes you can have acidental discharge with any handguns...I just think that with the Glock it's easier....
     
  24. bds
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    bds Member

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    OP:
    I think we are all answering the OP in many depth and detail levels. I tried to provide a simplified DA/SA/DAO and not get into partially cocked striker in Glocks.

    For one thing, Glock trigger is NOT a single action trigger.
     
  25. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    I agree, a Glock is more vulnerable to negligent gun handling. Due care and caution mitigate the risk.

    I also use ASP red guns as training aids. One of the advantages I saw with Glock was its manual of arms is identical to a red gun (i.e., no manual safety) which reinforces my training experience. When I present my Glock (or Glock red gun) from the holster, I put my finger on what I call the "Trigger Finger Rest" position. When I've made the decision to fire I move my finger to the trigger to work it. When I'm done shooting my finger goes back on the trigger finger rest.
     
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