Cocking a DA in Defensive Situation

[Sean Smith]

If you think you could gain something by cocking the hammer of a double action semi-auto in a fight, you have basically admitted to yourself that the whole premise of the DA semi-auto (i.e., heavy first trigger pull) is wrong for you. At some level you realized that heavy and long trigger pulls make it harder for you to actually hit what you are shooting at than short and light trigger pulls.

People should use the system they are comforatble with actually using. If you have a DA semi-auto, but find that you are always looking for excuses to not pull that double-action trigger when you actually shoot it, you should consider a different sort of firearm.

 

[Blackhawk]

Well said, Sean.

 

[arizona]

People should use the system they are comforatble with actually using. If you have a DA semi-auto, but find that you are always looking for excuses to not pull that double-action trigger when you actually shoot it, you should consider a different sort of firearm.
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Agree...that said, there is still nothing wrong with cocking the hammer if a person is confident in the system.

People have been cocking the hammer on double action revolvers for years. To me a DA/SA auto is similar to a revolver when you have a choice on the first shot.

Obviously if the bad guy/guys are almost on you, you would not try and cock the hammer before you fire.

Given time and distance and you are comfortable with the operation of your pistol and have trained accordingly, it will sometimes be to your advantage to cock the hammer before firing.

 

[Drakejake]

I can't agree with Sean Smith on this. The double action can be fired that way if necessary, or single action if there is time to cock the hammer or rack the slide. So the double action has this versatility. And carrying the double action with hammer down has a safety aspect missing from pistols such as Glock which have no manual safety and when fully loaded are semi-cocked. There is no doubt that one can shoot more accurately more easily with a short, light single action trigger than with the heavier, longer double action or DAO trigger. I don't argue that. In fact my question starting this thread is based on that assumption.

Drakejake

 

[Sean Smith]

There is no doubt that one can shoot more accurately more easily with a short, light single action trigger than with the heavier, longer double action or DAO trigger. I don't argue that. In fact my question starting this thread is based on that assumption.

If you belive that, then why the hell are you using a weapon that you think hinders your ability to hit the target? Shooting bad people in defensive situations is about hitting them, after all. Isn't it?



Think about that: you are telling us that you think that your weapon's double-action trigger hinders your ability to hit the target. If a weapon isn't for hitting the target, what is it for? Why use a weapon that you think handicaps you if you use it as intended?

I'm not arguing against DA semi-autos. I'm arguing against using weapons that you think will make combat more difficult for you if you use them as designed. If you think a DA trigger is a hindrance to hitting the target, then you get to choose between that impediment, or the time-wasting impediment of thumb-cocking the gun under duress.

 

[Handy]

I'm with Drake. A DA trigger is a safer, more immediate and simple way of countering close range threats (which is what carrying a pistol is really all about).

Having the capability of increasing your accuracy for the VERY unlikely extended range shot is worth discussion. It's just an acknowledgement of the weapon's capabilities. But since we all know that such a use is SO unlikely, it more begs the question why someone would ever feel the need to carry a cocked gun in the first place?

The defensive standard is center mass at 3 yards. If you can't do that with a DA trigger, you probably can't do it with any other trigger.



My observation from IDPA is that everyone, regardless of pistol type, slows down for long shots. There didn't seem to be any appreciable difference in engagement speed if the shooter was already cocked, cocked the hammer or staged the DA trigger.

 

[Sean Smith]

If you are going to use competition as a window into real life, then here is one for you: why do USPSA Production division and IDPA Stock Service Pistol division specifically PROHIBIT single-action handguns competing against DA and DAO handguns? After all, DA triggers aren't a hindrance to fast, accurate shooting, and thus SA triggers wouldn't have an unfair advantage... right?

There are no "unfair advantages" in the real world. Just advantages and disadvantages.

But my point isn't to argue DA vs SA. My point is that if you yourself, not some dude on an internet forum, belive that your handgun's trigger system hinders your accuracy, you probalby should consider something else.

 

[arizona]

I'm with Drake. A DA trigger is a safer, more immediate and simple way of countering close range threats (which is what carrying a pistol is really all about).

Having the capability of increasing your accuracy for the VERY unlikely extended range shot is worth discussion. It's just an acknowledgement of the weapon's capabilities. But since we all know that such a use is SO unlikely, it more begs the question why someone would ever feel the need to carry a cocked gun in the first place?

The defensive standard is center mass at 3 yards. If you can't do that with a DA trigger, you probably can't do it with any other trigger.



My observation from IDPA is that everyone, regardless of pistol type, slows down for long shots. There didn't seem to be any appreciable difference in engagement speed if the shooter was already cocked, cocked the hammer or staged the DA trigger.
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Well said...it enhances the weapons capabilities.

My Sig has an excellent DA and is right on in close quarters where the problem is apt to be, but if I want to cock the hammer before firing it can be done almost as fast as releasing the safety on a 1911.

 

[Drakejake]

Sean Smith, take a deep breath and say out loud, "Serenity Now!"

In your excitement you are forgetting the importance of safety in CCW firearms. As someone who carries a pistol all the time I am away from the house, but someone who doesn't live in a dangerous environment, I think it is much more likely that I will fire one of my pistols by accident than shoot a bad guy. I don't want the embarrassment or legal liability of accidentally firing my pistol in public or shooting myself or someone else at home. I consider the double/single action pistol with manual safety and decocker the safest auto pistol. I like this design very much even though the Glock's or Kimber's first shot might be more accurate than my first double action shot from my Ruger or Astra.

I like to examine all the options and am constantly considering safety vs. accuracy issues. My two Star PDs are the only single action pistols I own. It happens that one of them has a terrific trigger that makes me more accurate than with my other pistols. And it is also totally reliable--no jams or misfires. I have therefore carried it a few times and am examining carry possibilities with this hand gun.

Drakejake

 

[Sean Smith]

I'm not forgetting the importance of safety. My safety is between my ears. If you don't touch the trigger before you intend the hammer to fall, it doesn't matter if the pull is 5 pounds or 15.

Please don't presume to lecture me on safety.

Sean Smith, take a deep breath and say out loud, "Serenity Now!"

P.S.

 

[Drakejake]

Please don't lecture me on accuracy. Surely you are not that pompous.

Besides, what about convenience for carrying? You also ignore that aspect of pistol choice. Sure, a target pistol with a six inch barrel may be more accurate, but it may be more convenient to carry a tiny Kel-Tec .32.

Drakejake

 

[Sean Smith]

I'm not lecturing you. I'm telling you what you already said, and pointing out the seeming inconsistency therein.

If all this seems like I'm being a jerk, I apologize. I'm arguing with you, but I don't "mean" anything derogatory by it.

Some food for thought: how, excatly, is a cocked & locked, single action 1911 (since that is the most prevalent SA gun) less safe than a DA gun?

Both guns have a manual applied safety, depending on the model. Both guns have firing pin blocks, depending on the model. The 1911 also has a grip safety, on the outside chance that something could get in the trigger when you aren't holding the gun, causing it to go off.

Neither gun will fire if dropped. For either gun to go off, you have to pull the trigger... nothing else will really do. In the 1911, with the hammer cocked you'd need (a) a catastrophic mechanical failure in the trigger mechanism, (b) the half-cock notch to fail to intercept the hammer for some reason, and (c) the firing pin safety to fail for some reason. That is a pretty remarkably unlikely chain of events; hence, we can say that the hammer cocked per se does not present any mechanical "danger" compared to a DA semi-auto.

That leaves only trigger pull weight. Is a 5 pound trigger more dangerous than a 15 pound trigger? I'd say, "not if you keep your finger off the trigger when it doesn't belong there." Time to read up on the rules of firearms safety, maybe? The heavy initial trigger pull is probably more "safe" if the operator is careless, so you can reasonably argue that DA guns are "safer" for general issue in the military or police, where handgun training is often of poor quality.

If we are talking "tactical" (ug) considerations, you could argue it both ways. A DA gun WITHOUT an applied safety removes the need to work a safety to shoot the gun (think SigSauer P22x series), with the disadvantage that first DA shot... you could argue all day which is "worse" to deal with. But if you have an applied safety AND a hammer down DA gun, you are on the face of it slower to get into action than a SA gun, and the objective benefit is... a worse trigger pull? A more carelessness-tolerant weapon? With a DAO gun, you get the same advantage of the DA w/o manual safety, and the advantage of consistency, but of course ALL your trigger pulls are heavier (like a revolver).

 

[Handy]

Sean,

A cocked 1911 is as safe as a DA gun if and only if:

1. The safety stays on. As reported here, this is not always the case.

2. None of the internal parts holding the cocked hammer break. While unlikely, it is not even a factor when the mainspring is completely relaxed and the hammer at rest.

The safety flip side is that a DA gun is actually easier to fire under duress, as it only takes one step, rather than two sequential operations with a safetied weapon.


Perhaps you could illustrate a defensive situation where there would be no time to cock a hammer AND the DA trigger would prove to great an accuracy burden. I mentioned IDPA before because I never really saw one there, and am having a hard time thinking of one.

 

[jimbo]

Cock a DA? Why?

If you aren't happy with your DA trigger pull, try a different model or get an action job to lighten the DA pull.

If DA doesn't do it for you, go 1911, Hi Power or Glock. I prefer DA because the SA is too light for that initial instant of stress. But a smooth DA pull is no handicap as far as I'm concerned.