Why Are We Fighting Useless Battles?

[BehindTheIronCurtain]

Hey guys, new to the board and I just wanted to bring this point up.

A large portion of the gun rights discussion has been on open carry laws. The merits of Open Carry are there, and I understand the general idea of carrying a big stick, but should we really be fighting this fight when there are broader issues which need our time, energy, and money?

I live in a state (I have been whining about my state in each post I've written thus far, I know) where ANY kind of carry is difficult to obtain. I see so many here in Florida which I see as a promised land of gun owners fighting for open carry laws.

I have my opinion on open carry (again, I understand your reasons if you favor it) I want the fewest number of people knowing I have a gun, I want the bad guy to be surprised by my having a gun, I don't want to be stripped of my weapon while standing in line at the movies, and I don't want to have to constantly be on guard because I'm guarding my weapon. To each his own, so I would suggest fighting for that right when we have won the bigger battles when we have poured ourselves into securing gun rights for all.

 

[Texas Gun Person]

For many states open carry is the next big step towards being more pro-second amendment.

I live in Texas and we pretty good gun laws in my opinion, but we do not have open carry. For many people that's what they want and focus on. What else is left that is such a big step? Nothing in my opinion. There are big issues like campus carry and having weapons in your vehicle at work, but they still don't hit as many buttons as open carry does.

Some states... well they just need all the help they can get for decent gun laws.

 

[BehindTheIronCurtain]

For many states open carry is the next big step towards being more pro-second amendment.

I live in Texas and we pretty good gun laws in my opinion, but we do not have open carry. For many people that's what they want and focus on. What else is left that is such a big step? Nothing in my opinion. There are big issues like campus carry and having weapons in your vehicle at work, but they still don't hit as many buttons as open carry does.

Some states... well they just need all the help they can get for decent gun laws.

I see what you're saying. I would say, however, that there are plenty of federal laws that are still quite unfair, and are worth the fighting for.

 

[gym]

I think that just carry, like the way it used to be in NY if you were lucky enough to get a license. No one ever mentioned printing, or if you took off your jacket in a restaurant and had a pancake holster on, it wouldn't get a second look, "people just assumed you were supposed to have it" but a lot had to do with the way you dressed. Most times I had on a sports jacket or leather jacket and never worried about someone seeing it, perhaps that is the way it should be, in other words not overlly exposed . But the printing I believe is just silly. Why have to worry about that if it's covered. I was never asked to see my permit when I lived there, over 21 years of carrying every day. And on the island, we often walked around with jeans and tee shirts, with our snubbies on the outside. Even went into restaurants for lunch or diners and never had a problem.Also my business which one was a salon, at night when I did the bookeeping, "it was all cash back then" I would sit at the desk and "close out" the neighboorhood cops all knew me. They even had my home number so if something happened they would call me at home and tell me before the alarm people did. The good old days. Maas just sent out an email obama is going to make some sort of speech on guns, here we go again.

 

[KingMedicine]

In idaho. Open carrying is allowed and pretty normal. Its not odd to see a few people in a day with a sidearm on there hip. With this being acceptable, we really dont have many issues with weapons being stripped or stolen, or even many muggings that make the news. And around here it would make the news. Guns are apart of life here.

Why wouldnt you want open carry in every state? Acceptance of any gun law is a great direction into fighting laws that hinder Firearms.

I think it works both ways. Why fight a huge battle about a issue that it going to drag out, when you can get open carrying more accepted and not have people freak out when they see a pistol. Once they get used to seeing a live firearm in real life, it takes alot of the threating nature away from it. People are afraid of what they do not know.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Whatever you think of OC, the battle is neither useless nor a drain of resources, even for folks buried in the Dark & Fascist States.

The reason it's not useless is because in places where the core of the right is secure, you want to push the front lines fighting for a right as far back from the brink of that right's collapse as possible. When the fight is about some exotic expression of a right, the fight is not about the essence and existence of the right.

The more places where arms bearing, even in exotic forms is accepted as normal, this makes jurisdictions where the right is suppressed all the more repressive and regressive, and out of step with the mainstream.

Finally, there really isn't any drain of resources. Those people spending time fighting for OC in the Plains states really wouldn't be effectively available to fight for core RKBA in the D&F states anyway.

 

[kingpin008]

As Geek said, no battle is useless in regards to the Second Amendment. They are all important, for different reasons.

And it's not reasonable to assume that an individual fighting on one front isn't simultaneously fighting on another. Writing letters and making phone calls is the name of the game these days, and it's perfectly doable to campaign locally and nationally at the same time. Thousands of us do it every day.

 

[Wolfeye]

If OC were not legal in the two states I spend the most time in - WA and AK - I'd push for reform. For me, it has nothing to do with being armed for bad guys; I like to carry rifles or big revolvers while out in the woods as animal protection. Trying to conceal a 6" .44 would be ridiculous, plus pulling one from concealment would take longer than from OC. General wisdom is that you're lucky if you have time to get one shot off, so slowing yourself down would be dangerous.

I'm lucky in that both CC and OC laws around here are pretty good, but I do have the challenge of being in a large urban area where the majority of people are anti-gun. I fight for my rights in my own small way: by supporting civil rights organizations and by setting a good example to my friends.

 

[merlinfire]

Generally, state laws are easier to change/overturn than federal ones. And as states turn more pro 2a, momentum can build for federal changes. At least, that's what I think.

 

[TexasRifleman]

To each his own, so I would suggest fighting for that right when we have won the bigger battles when we have poured ourselves into securing gun rights for all.

You have to understand that people want to fight for things that directly impact them more.

I'm really sorry that New Jersey for example has onerous gun laws, but I don't live in New Jersey. I choose not to live in New Jersey for a variety of reasons.

So, it's not outrageous that I would not spend as much time fighting for the rights of people who live in New Jersey as I do Texans and it's certainly not "useless" for me to be involved in pro gun activities where I live.

 

[mljdeckard]

Open carry is part of our creeping incrementalism. Just as many scoffed at the idea of carry permits, (believing that paying for a permit is admitting that carrying is a privilige and not a right,) We now are using them as a step towards doing away with permits entirely. Hey, if the banners can work at this one step at a time, SO CAN WE.

People I talk to seem to think that Texas is the big gun state, and then I tell them about the 30-06 signs, and that you can't even carry a gun in the open there.

You ALWAYS need to constantly be on guard with your weapon, and make sure you don't get stripped of it. You can't ignore retention just because your gun is concealed. And I think that the deterrence from a bad guy knowing you are carrying out least outweighs the surprise element lost.

 

[Axel Larson]

Here in Vermont it is legal to cancel carry or open carry and you don't need a permit. There are some people who are anti but for the most part it is pro gun. I don't think it is useless to fight for any gun right as many here already stated. Open carry is a choice, I currently don't own any guns with more than a ten round limit yet I still want the choice to have more rounds. I just got a Para 1911 used and now I cancel but for those who want to open carry good for them.

 

[scaatylobo]

I dislike OC and would avoid it like the plague.

BUT,if its to allow CCW then go for it.

Recent robberys of those in OC states where they LOST their gun has convinced me I am correct as to OC being a no no.

And I taught weapon retention and have NO belief that many can do the techniques a year after learning them.

 

[TCB in TN]

One of my biggest beefs with people in general and gun folks in particular is their insistence on everyone thinking like they do. I am perfectly happy to see folks open carry, conceal or not carry at all, depending upon their preference. I don't think it should matter. Same with most other issues. I don't see the need to force my preference on others, just don't want others to force theirs on me. That is what freedom is all about. I live my life as a fiscal and moral conservative, that is my choice. But this country was really founded more on libertarian principals, and I am a firm believer in them. It is not stupid, useless, or a waste of time for people to fight in what they believe.

 

[Sam1911]

Let's not debate the merits of Open -vs.- Concealed carry here. That's been done to death in many other threads -- and it ISN'T the point of THIS thread.

There are many "gun" issues we can expend energy to fight for:

Basic, unfettered ownership of firearms -- at all -- is a worthy cause that needs to be fought in some states.

For others, most guns are legal to own, but they fight to have the legal ability to own guns with certain features that are currently prohibited, or NFA Title II weapons.

In other states, the big fight is the ability to obtain a concealed carry permit.

In yet others, who can own whatever guns they wish and have legal concealed carry, the fight is for open carry.

But our friends in our free-est states are fighting to have ANY permit for or regulations against carrying a weapon (a' la VT, AZ, AK).

A few of us are so unencumbered by intrusive regulations that we're carried the fight all the way to the point of working to prohibit various federal gun laws from being enforced within our state!

And so on.

ALL of these efforts help ALL of us, in the grand scheme. Improvements in Montana change the nationwide gun-law "landscape" for those of us in PA. Successful changes in Arizona offer examples and guides to those in New York or California. A general increase in the totality of "rights" moves the goalposts, or shifts the "middle ground" toward our end of the field, putting pressure on those at the bad end of the spectrum to reform.

We are not all fighting one issue at a time, exclusively. We aren't a bloc of 80 milliion gun owners united to fight the one WORST law in the country, and when that is defeated, all moving on to the next worst law, and so forth. That's impossible. Instead, we all fight our own battles in our own back yards (and nationally when we can) and our rising tide floats all boats.

 

[Quiet]

IMO...
Getting open carry legal is just another step to "constitutional carry".

shall issue CCW permit + legal open carry = easier to get legislation passed to make it legal to conceal carry without needing a CCW permit

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Here in Oregon, we have open carry (with some city exceptions) the CCW is easy to get.

I think any and all fights when it comes to gun rights is a worthy cause.

Carrying open in a liberal state/city etc makes the Muggles very nervous and I really dont want people getting stirred, as you never know what the sheep are going to do then.

Walk into the restaurant, peel of your coat and the gun shows, OMG a stampede, well probably not, but you could have unexpected dinner guests.

Places like Alaska, Idaho and such where folks are of the more "Rural" attitude just do fine with a sidearm on the hip, in the more urban environments the open carry is probably not the best policy or practice.

Still the fight is a good one. Anything that helps further 2A is worthwhile.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Snowy

 

[jerkface11]

Carrying open in a liberal state/city etc makes the Muggles very nervous and I really dont want people getting stirred, as you never know what the sheep are going to do then.

Imagine what the police would say if someone called them because a gay couple was at a restaurant. Or an interracial couple. We should strive for that reaction when they get called on someone legally carrying.

 

[Sam1911]

Carrying open in a liberal state/city etc makes the Muggles very nervous and I really dont want people getting stirred, as you never know what the sheep are going to do then.

Imagine what the police would say if someone called them because a gay couple was at a restaurant. Or an interracial couple. We should strive for that reaction when they get called on someone legally carrying.

Changing the beliefs and perceptions of society is ALWAYS risky. You can provoke a backlash. To some extent we WILL and DO provoke backlash responses. That is unavoidable. But the net effect is to stretch the collective consciousness of society around the idea that guns are normal, everyday items, possessed, used, and carried by a significant portion of that society. Not the criminals, not just the gang members, and not just police officers, but NORMAL, upstanding, polite, lawful, peaceable, respectable people.

Fighting for legal changes (and WINNING), fighting unjust or illogical misapplication of existing laws (and WINNING), and acting lawfully and peaceably within the bounds of those laws moves the boundaries of what society thinks of as the normal, reasonable state of legislation, and the normal, lawful actions of their fellow citizens.

It may be possible to push too hard, too fast. Unfortunately, it is CLEARLY possible to do the opposite, and we have for far too long.

 

[mes227]

As Geek said, no battle is useless in regards to the Second Amendment. They are all important, for different reasons.

I couldn't disagree more. I'm not opposing open carry and I rather like the idea, but the OP raises a very good point. Open carry is very, very offensive to a lot of non-gun enthusiasts and I personally think a lot of morons abuse the right. Literally a hundred million people think its a bad idea and the more we push ideas that the vast majority think our outrageous the more we're marginalized and ignored. And that hurts us on a lot more areas than just this one. A number of well-executed polls suggest 70% of Americans approve of more gun control and that figure is increasing. The more we act like nuts - like insisting that we have a right to carrying guns onto private property against that private property owner's wishes and Constitutional rights - the more people think we're nuts.

There are useless and even count-productive battles on any important topic and fighting them both diverts finite resources and energizes the opposition. To not recognize this is to be ill-prepared. Remember, the 2nd amendment is neither as clear as we say it is nor is it carved into stone tablets. The 2nd A is subject to the same amendment process that got it added to the Constitution in the first place. The Constitution on the average gets amended about once every 15 years. If there were now a proposal to revise the 2nd Amendment to Constitutionally limit gun rights, it would likely pass and that should terrify us. So we had better learn to start defending gun rights from more than just a blind reliance on the 2nd Amendment - and we'd better start being sensitive to what our fellow citizens think or we could win the battles and lose the war.

 

[xcgates]

Sam1911:

We are not all fighting one issue at a time, exclusively. We aren't a bloc of 80 milliion gun owners united to fight the one WORST law in the country, and when that is defeated, all moving on to the next worst law, and so forth. That's impossible. Instead, we all fight our own battles in our own back yards (and nationally when we can) and our rising tide floats all boats.

Quoted for truth. Improve conditions where and when you can, and slowly but surely, overall conditions (hopefully and likely) will improve.

 

[Guillermo]

BehindTheIronCurtain,

Since we live in a time where principles are largely a thing of the past, I am not going to discourage anyone from fighting a 2nd amendment battle.

I am just glad that they are fighting.


Would it be best if we all worked together...sure, but that is unrealistic for a plenty of reasons.

If you see someone fighting for one of our causes give them a quick drink of water, encouraging advice and give them their mouthpiece before sending them back in the ring.

 

[Sam1911]

I couldn't disagree more. I'm not opposing open carry and I rather like the idea, but the OP raises a very good point. Open carry is very, very offensive to a lot of non-gun enthusiasts and I personally think a lot of morons abuse the right. Literally a hundred million people think its a bad idea and the more we push ideas that the vast majority think our outrageous the more we're marginalized and ignored.

There are various forms of speech, various forms of public action, various religious practices, various forms of self-expression and even of personal relationships that are "very, very offensive" to some large segment of our society. And yet, time and again the groups who engage in those "offensive" practices prove that when they stand up for themselves, fight for their rights, and represent themselves at (otherwise?) good citizens, they gain widespread acceptance, or at least (here it comes..!) TOLERANCE, for their activities. In other words, by them engaging in their practices in a peaceable manner, working for legal protection and recognition, and showing society that they are not the destructive influence so many claimed they were, the perceptions of society shift -- in some cases, MASSIVELY -- to accept and even encourage them.

And that hurts us on a lot more areas than just this one. A number of well-executed polls suggest 70% of Americans approve of more gun control and that figure is increasing.

That's pretty off-the-wall. There are a number of well-executed polls that say less than 40% do, and the legislative movements of the last 20 years show that gun control has, and continued to, wane into irrelevance as a political goal.

The more we act like nuts - ... - the more people think we're nuts.

What's a "nut?" The more often and visibly we exercise the full logical and legal extents of our rights, the less "odd" that seems to John and Jane Q. Public.

If there were now a proposal to revise the 2nd Amendment to Constitutionally limit gun rights, it would likely pass and that should terrify us.

Where have you been for the last 20...no say the last 3 years? We've moved farther toward a concrete and literal reading of the 2nd Amendment than we've seen in our lifetimes. What on earth would make you think an Amendment revoking a fundamental part of the Bill of Rights has ANY chance of even being entertained for a moment? I cannot regard your argument as credible if you believe that.

So we had better learn to start defending gun rights from more than just a blind reliance on the 2nd Amendment

As folks keep pointing out, the best defense is a good OFFENSE.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Logic would seem to dictate that open carry would be in accordance with "bearing" arms, and should be a constitutional right. If you can't carry openly, and you can't carry concealed, how exactly do you "bear" arms?

 

[Zoogster]

Open Carry is noticed by the population and is undeniable when practiced.

When it becomes seen so often as to become normal the population in general is aware of numerous guns around them all the time not involved in violence.
This has a more positive and profound impact on gun rights than concealed carry ever will.

Concealed carry may be the preferred method of carry for protection but to the average citizen it is merely a statistic, a statistic they are unaware of if they do not wish to acknowledge, and merely a number if they do.
So what if X% of people have a permit. Did they see 1%, 3%, 5% throughout the day with a gun? No.
5% is just a number, they saw hundreds of people throughout the day and 1 in 20 did not appear to have a gun so as far as they are concerned they were not exposed to people with firearms throughout the course of their day.

It enables individuals so inclined to be ignorant and distrusting of the idea of firearm freedoms.

Yet you can be absolutely sure those same people will not be ignorant of media stories covering various crimes committed with firearms.
If a handful of firearms are misused in the area people will be quite aware of those incidents, but if thousands provided security and equality to many carrying in that same area in the same time span the public will be unaware.

This creates a perception that is not helpful. Where people are aware of a large percentage of the bad things done with firearms and ignorant of most others.
Where the police are the good guys with guns, and the bad guys are the rest with guns.
This makes many more willing to vote for what sound like good ideas in restricting firearms when such ideas are pitched by an antigunner.



It is much easier to demonize a minority you don't have to see as everyday people going about their everyday activities. Those that carry a concealed firearm are such a minority, and nobody sees them and so it remains easy to think of them as "other" people that make up a statistic. They are not perceived as regular people interacted with on a daily basis.


Open Carry stops that.
If it does not meet such opposition that an end is put to it early on, the impact on the perceptions of a society is profound. Guns become a regular object of society, no longer associated with bad behaviors. Just another item seen carried by normal people on any given day.
It is hard for anti-gun perceptions to spread in places that have Open Carry in place long term and that freedom is regularly observed being practiced by everyday good people.
If fact the only reason open carry does not have as positive of an impact as it could is because most prefer discreet concealed carry in places that allow both and so the number of people seen armed regularly is reduced.