Why arent pistol cal carbines more common?

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The reason most people don't have pistol caliber carbines is simple-a RIFLE caliber carbine is often no heavier, no more expensive and no harder to shoot well. If you're going to the bother of carrying a long arm, why not get the long reach that goes with it?


Larry
 
a RIFLE caliber carbine is often no heavier
This is what I meant in #2 of my initial post on this thread. Manufacturers don't understand what a pistol caliber carbine should do and often make them much larger and heavier than they need to be.

It's also worth pointing out that long range is not always considered an asset in a self-defense scenario because it is often associated with overpenetration and because most self-defense scenarios don't take place at long range. Certainly not rifle range except in very unusual circumstances.
 
Kel-Tec Gets It

My Kel-Tec Sub2K is 4 lbs empty and folds to 16" (which is some trick with a 16.1" barrel) :confused:

Paper plate accurate offhand at 100yds. 2-3" 30 shot groups at 25 yds, even with paint ball sights.

Inexpensive, small, light, and reasonably accurate. Works for me.

-PB
 
With the exception of leveractions for cowboy action shooting pistol caliber carbines are pointless. They have far less stopping power and range when compared to real long guns. As for home defense they have more overpenetration than 223 carbines. They serve no purpose.
Pat
 
355sigfan wrote:
With the exception of leveractions for cowboy action shooting pistol caliber carbines are pointless. They have far less stopping power and range when compared to real long guns. As for home defense they have more overpenetration than 223 carbines. They serve no purpose.
Pat

Carbines are pointless? That is your opinion. What people may use for home defense is not written in stone. When you look at real chronograph data there isn't a huge difference in muzzle velocity between a carbine, and a similar caliber pistol.

The thing is most people buy them for fun, and they can in fact be usefull for home defense. A longer sight radius, and a stock can go a long way in increasing a hit to center mass if need be.

The notion that a carbine is useless is ridiculous. Only hits count.
 
Handguns are only usefull as defensive last resort weapons. We carry them because they are convenient, not because they are powerfull and accurate. They are not. Handguns are not good home defense weapons when compared to long guns. Pistol caliber pop guns are mearly oversize pistols ballistically. They epitomize the word useless. Only hits count but a hit with a 223 or a 12 gauge goes a lot further toward putting the badguy down than any pistol caliber pop gun.
Pat
 
They serve no purpose.
I believe 355sigfan's disdain for pistol caliber carbines, save lever action .357 and up, has been noted here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. I stopped looking when I hit 2003. I would say they are not more common on the strength of his hatred alone. :p Just joking with you, no harm meant.

I go back and forth on owning the Ruger PC9. I couldn't justify the price unless I already had a Ruger semi-auto. I don't like the other semi-auto carbines.

The one thing off the top of my head I can't see a use for and serves no purpose is Michael Jackson.

jmm
 
IMO, the original rationale for a sidearm and longarm chambered for the same cartridge contained both practical and economic factors.

When Winchester introduced the 1873 rifle and carbine and the .44-40 cartridge it represented the most practical all-around compromise of power and magazine capacity available. Colt revolvers were offered a couple of years later, with other manufacturers not far behind. The subsequent marking of Colt SAAs so chambered as the "Frontier Sixshooter" pretty much says it all.

On that frontier, the relatively new self-contained metallic cartridges were expensive, and resupply could be difficult. Obviously, having the advantage of only having to buy one cartridge that would give a person performance levels adequate for his most urgent needs in both his sidearm and longarm was a most practical option.

The .44-40 might not be the absolute 'best' for a particular situation, but it would sure do well enough in almost any situation to get you fed or home with your scalp intact.

With blackpowder, there was and is a much more marked ballistic gain when fired from a closed breech and through a longer barrel. That, along with the increase in both precision and effective range most folks obtain with a longarm made for a 'slam dunk' choice where your resources were going to be severely limited.

For the shooter of both limited means and interests, a carbine and sidearm chambered for a "Magnum" revolver cartridge still has great practical value, and for many of the same reasons.

Modern semi-auto pistol cartridges, as has been noted, just don't offer nearly the same level of ballistic gain from a longer barrel to extend one's effective range to as significant a degree. For the indifferent marksman, there may well be a significant gain in precision, but without a commensurate increase in energy delivery.

I would argue that the combination of a .357, .41, or .44 Magnum carbine with a revolver of the same chambering can cover more bases better, in more conceivable situations, for more people than the same combo in any semiauto pistol cartridge with the possible exception of full-power 10mm Auto rounds.

IMO, the relative lack of practical advantages to the system when semiauto cartridges are used is the main reason that sales of carbines so chambered are relatively small when compared LAs in Magnum revolver calibers, even in cases when prices are directly comparable.

It's not just nostalgia; it's something that works better.
 
Why aren’t pistol cal carbines more common?

IMO
I think that the people that buy most of them have more
then ten guns. Maybe more then 20 guns.
It appears to me that the more that you have and the more
That you know or understand about guns and the like, the
More likely you are to buy one.

IMO
I think that some people have a vast amount of knowledge
In a very limited way.
 
I think that the people that buy most of them have more
then ten guns. Maybe more then 20 guns.

I've got more than 20 guns, but every time the issue comes up, an analysis of what such a carbine would do for me always leads to the conclusion that a .30-30 would do it better.
 
I believe that they aren't more common because they do absolutely nothing well. The fact is that some people simply LIKE them, so the market remains.

The lever versions have a place in Cowboy shooting, but that is a game. The larger caliber levers could serve limited duty in the great outdoors, but in many cases there is probably a better choice available.

The very few (but vocal) supporters and fans of those ill-conceived semiauto versions of these guns are some obvious "exceptions" and should be seen as such. After reading their stuff, I would never look to them for any common sense opinions if I were seeking any mainstream answers about guns of this type.

The proof of this kicks in now that the market is starting to speak on these baby long guns. They are NOT very popular, and it's fans are being largely over-ruled by the vast majority of shooters who simply know better.

And THAT is as it should be. ;)


W
 
They are NOT very popular, and it's fans are being largely over-ruled by the vast majority of shooters who simply know better.

Yet there are a lot of designs to be had out there. It would also be interesting to track the sales of the CX4 Storm to see how well it is selling. I believe its selling pretty well, but I have not seen any numbers to prove or disprove my belief. These rifles are never going to out perform other platforms in most areas, but they do fill a small niche that others have explicated previously.
 
They are NOT very popular, and it's fans are being largely over-ruled by the vast majority of shooters who simply know better

Darn I thought I knew better and bought one anyway, well this is
terrible I got to to sell it or give away because it's not popular. :neener: :D
 
Heres an interesting question-

People say carbines are useless.

Then why do major police, military, and anti-terrorist orginaizations use them in the form of Sub-machineguns? Why not just use M4's?

*They are basicly the same thing, aside from full auto capabilitys and length.* Length makes a difference but you can still get them Pretty darn short in the civilian world* (drawing attention to this because i know people will use length as an argument)

I mean, if they are so utterly useless, than why not use an AK SU? Or an M4? There are any number of short rifle calibre carbines- yet a large amount of the time they turn to pistol calibres. Shurely there must be a reason.

Did a little research and the MP5A2 is 680 mm in length, which is approx 27 inches.
 
Why aren't they more popular?

Because, in the "needs" analysis, they fill very narrow niche. They're as large as a rifle (a small one), without the punch of a real rifle caliber. They offer a cheap plinking/practice alternative to full rifle rounds, but not as cheap as .22 LR. In short, if you can afford a "real" rifle and a .22 rifle, you can cover your plinking and 'serious' bases much better with one of each.

That said, certainy we need not limit ourselves to "needs." The pistol carbines are fun as heck to shoot, will most certainly kill things dead, and are viable as both sport shooters and defensive arms. But lets face it, the proprotion of gunowners who will plunk down $500 for a compromise or a toy is pretty small. We are not typical...we're far more into this than many gunowners.

I just really think that many people find the 9mm/.45/.40 carbines as too expensive for plinking and too light for jobs needing punch to justify a $500 outlay.
 
Then why do major police, military, and anti-terrorist orginaizations use them in the form of Sub-machineguns? Why not just use M4's?
1. Many of these agencies are, in fact, migrating to the M4 and away from pistol caliber submachineguns

2. Submachineguns have The Switch. civilian-legal carbines don't.

Mike
 
And, they're not useless. The M4 option (either FA or SA, as long as we're talking apples to apples) is just more useful. Hence, the general trend for rifle-caliber carbines to be preferred to pistol calibered ones.

Mike
 
I've got more than 20 guns, but every time the issue comes up, an analysis of what such a carbine would do for me always leads to the conclusion that a .30-30 would do it better.

Not aimed at you , but I DO find it interesting that many people on this thread that are vehemenently opposed to these carbines are the same who will pontificate on the carbine's virtues and the fact that it's "enough, if you do your part", when someone starts a thread saying, "there's no use for carbines, only rifles and handguns make sense.

Wonder why that is?
 
Then why do major police, military, and anti-terrorist orginaizations use them in the form of Sub-machineguns? Why not just use M4's?

I think there are a couple of reasons for this. Firstly is the ability to fire full auto certainly makes a sub-machinegun much more useful. Secondly, for police departments I think logistically it makes sense. In my collection I have 11 different calibers, and it is a pain to make keep myself well stocked in all 11 calibers. For a large department adding one more caliber to the mix will increase operating cost of their department, and will also make acquisition more complicated. That being said, a lot of departments are using M4s. I was watching the SWAT challenge not too long ago and saw only one Swat team use a sub-machinegun, which was a UMP. For military purposes I cannot see sub-machineguns having very many applications, especially with new body armor technology. If you see any sub-machinegun like weapon issued to the military again I believe it will probably be something like the P90 or the MP7.
 
Best choice

Can you imagine if we were limited to some one else’s ideas of the better
choice available. One type of gun in one caliber or gage, in one loading.

I would not be able to use my 25-20 and why in the world would I want
to have my pistol in 8mm Lebel. Or how about my semi auto 9mm rim fire
shotgun. I would be crushed to think that my Brown Bess smooth bore
flint lock is not my best choice to hunt with.

It occurred to me that I own a number of rifle/carbine/single shot
configuration in pistol caliber’s, that I don’t own a handgun in.
 
No, low powered carbines are not "useless" just like 22LRs arn't. You choose the right gun for the job. If I pop a coyote or other varmint at 6:00 am or 9:00 pm my neighbors might not be too happy if I use the .223 or 30-06. A long barrel .45 might not even wake them up, and the bullets are designed to expand at these subsonic velocities unlike the Whisper cartridges. It's all about case/bore ratios.

Anybody here feel like gettin rid of thier 22LR rifles? They're underpowered ya know.
 
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I find it interesting

that something like a .44 mag is considered a hand-cannon (or was just a few years ago before the invasion of the super-boomers), but the same round (that has better performance) out of a carbine is considered totally ineffective

When we get into the ever-present "best handgun for bears" thread, the .44 mag is considered a true contender, but out of a rifle it probably won't even damage a fly

If you go to Sixgunner, you can find info where Cape Buffalo have been taken with rounds that are probably about the same as a hot loaded .45 Colt out of a rifle.

As long as nothing tougher than a Cape Buffalo is in my neighborhood, I'll trust the carbine. After that' I'll get a "real" rifle...

like a .223 ;)
 
don't know why, but these 'pistol caliber rifle' threads bet uglier on The HIGH Road than some other forums where anarchy runs amock.
 
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