Someone posted a link to a video on here awhile back, titled "the little .410 that could". Some guys had a single shot rigged up with a string to pull the trigger and fired several calibers that fit in the gun, including 454 Casull. The gun held up great, surprisingly!
Why aren't there any heavier .410 slugs?
- Thread starter A strange person
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes, but pulling a string from afar and it blows up even occasionally, is a FAR different and more pleasant experience.
Then when it blows up inches in front of your face & eyeballs with your left hand wrapped around the barrel, even once in a lifetime.
Do you feel lucky?
Well do you?
rc
Then when it blows up inches in front of your face & eyeballs with your left hand wrapped around the barrel, even once in a lifetime.
Do you feel lucky?
Well do you?
rc
"We will not recommend use of HBBS .410 slugs in any chambering other than the HBBS Rifled .410 they were designed for.
They will not perform well in smooth bore shotguns for a variety of reasons, the biggest being instability in flight. The HBBS Heavy and Youth slug loads use a solid slug instead of a common hollow base slug found in most if not all other .410 slug loads. These slugs need rifling to impart a stabilizing spin. Choke and bore diameter are two other important factors. No chokes should be used and cylinder bore would be in order if used in a smooth bore barrel. Bore diameter should be suitable also. I mention this because there is a wide variety of bores called ".410" as allowed by S.A.A.M.I. standards.
We recommend having a competent gun smith evaluate the use of HBBS .410 slugs in any given smooth bore .410 shotgun due to the many combinations of bore diameter, choke, chamber dimension, action type, over all condition of fire arm."
With more punch than a 30/30 I would still like to have some of these slugs on hand for dangerous game defense. Hopefully the accuracy will be somewhat acceptable.
They will not perform well in smooth bore shotguns for a variety of reasons, the biggest being instability in flight. The HBBS Heavy and Youth slug loads use a solid slug instead of a common hollow base slug found in most if not all other .410 slug loads. These slugs need rifling to impart a stabilizing spin. Choke and bore diameter are two other important factors. No chokes should be used and cylinder bore would be in order if used in a smooth bore barrel. Bore diameter should be suitable also. I mention this because there is a wide variety of bores called ".410" as allowed by S.A.A.M.I. standards.
We recommend having a competent gun smith evaluate the use of HBBS .410 slugs in any given smooth bore .410 shotgun due to the many combinations of bore diameter, choke, chamber dimension, action type, over all condition of fire arm."
With more punch than a 30/30 I would still like to have some of these slugs on hand for dangerous game defense. Hopefully the accuracy will be somewhat acceptable.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
That sounds like a good plan.
A real good plan!
If they wanted you to Choot elephants and moose's with a .410?
They would have made it a .410 Nito Express rifle in the first place!
rc
A real good plan!
If they wanted you to Choot elephants and moose's with a .410?
They would have made it a .410 Nito Express rifle in the first place!
rc
MCgunner
Member
Pull the choke off my 10" contender .410 barrel and it becomes a 7-8 MOA .45 Colt pushing a 300 grain XTP to 1200 fps. I don't know how you can top that with any .410 load in the gun. Me, hell, I put my .30-30 barrel/2x optic on for deer hunting with it.
Because .410 smoothbore is man TOY.
A strange person
Member
I am a wilderness survival skills enthusiast first and foremost, and hunting is only a "sub-activity" to me. I like taking to the woods for days or even weeks on end alone on foot, and taking all kinds of game along the way. Versatility with a single weapon is thus EXTREMELY important to someone like me, as I obviously cannot lug around several long arms simultaneously. I know not everyone thinks like that, but they should at least be able to understand this concept. The old timers did; back in the day, there were all kinds of survival-oriented weapons like super light-weight .410 over .22 combo guns with folding stocks, etc. etc. The current generation is woefully "sports" minded. No fun.
The .410 is a good choice as a woods trekking gun in forested country because of it's usefulness on small game at modest range vs. the relatively light weight of it's ammo (and the weapon itself, usually). This is a good enough reason to make more capable deer loads for it, as far as I'm concerned.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Back in the day, there were very few combo guns, and the old timers didn't use them much except maybe on a trap line.
Woodsmen & hunters carried a suitable caliber rifle for the biggest dangerous game in the country they were in.
And shot everything that needed shooting with it.
They might have also carried a light "Kit Gun" type revolver for shooting grouse & rabbits for food, and dispatching small animals in traps without distroying the pelts.
Or earlier, they might have carried a Winchester lever-action and a matching caliber Colt SAA in 38-40 or 44-4 WCF.
The .22/410 combo guns were a later development, and where mostly a kids cheap first gun, or a trappers only gun.
They would not have been a logical choice for someone hunting or living off the land in big game / dangerous game country.
rc
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Shucks, the real old timers did it with one gun. A flintlock long gun of some description, a mold for shot, a mold for round balls, powder, and lead. Wasn't .410 bore, though. More like .68-.75 cal or so, and long as a man is tall.
Deer, bear, buffalo, and whatever else fell in the sights. Now THAT's really living off the land.Sport45
Member
Nah, the real old timers did it with a sharpened rock tied to the end of a stick.
I suppose the ones before that just used the rock or stick alone...
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
The ones before that did it bare handed, tooth & nail.
But thats beside the point.
rc
But thats beside the point.
rc
Crowcifier666
Member
Yeah, why have a .410 when you could just grab a stick and a rock? now that's survivng. :banghead:
A strange person
Member
(deleted, just being quarrelsome)
lobo9er
Member
for deer it has to be 20 or bigger, but for coyote its either shotgun of any size or rimfire that would be slamming.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Always a good idea to specify what State's laws you are quoting when you give a requirement like that. The game laws vary.
Our illustrious Moderator is correct...State laws vary. Here in Kali, there is no such requirement. They also specify center fire pistol but no caliber or minimum energy requirement (as of last year). While technically I could use my 32 ACP LEGALLY, I could not and would not ethically.
Here in lies one of the major problems with this discussion. Too many people regard the 410 as a toy and don't or won't take it seriously. Too many net ninjas, tactical tommies, and counter commandos think that nothing short of a 12 gauge is even suitable for SD/HD let alone hunting.
12 gauge and 20 gauge slugs are weighted at levels from light loads up to standard weight loads for their gauge. In 20 gauge Federal offers 5/8, 3/4, and 7/8 ounce offerings. In 12 gauge they offer everything from 3/4 to 1 1/4 ounce.
To the OP's question and I find it quite legitimate; why do the ammo companies insist on offering very light for gauge slugs for the 410? Why not offer a 3/8 ounce ( ~164 gr.) or 7/16 ounce (~194 gr) load? Lymans old slug mold dropped a 138 gr (~5/16) ounce slug. Anyone that thinks that a 160 gr. .375 slug wouldn't put a world of hurt on someone / something is seriously deluded. One major advantage to a heavier slug is that it will enjoy better Sectional Density which means it will tend to penetrate better.
With a new generation of consumers taking a more serious look at the 410 and what it can potentially do we now have real buckshot loads for the 410 and some of them are quite respectable. Anyone want to play catch with 4 000 buck pellets from a 2 1/2" shell moving at 1200 fps? I very highly doubt it. So why not give us slugs that match?
For those who think it can't be done, look at the 168 gr. offering here:
Paraklese
lobo9er
Member
I was speaking about NY
For big game 20 gauge is the smallest bore shotgun allowed, and its slug only. But I can use ANY centerfire pistol, no barrel length requirement. I am sure they did that because hunting laws conflicted with CCW laws. For instance a few years ago, the way I understand it, it may have been criminal to have your CCW 32 on you while you were hunting in NY.
For big game 20 gauge is the smallest bore shotgun allowed, and its slug only. But I can use ANY centerfire pistol, no barrel length requirement. I am sure they did that because hunting laws conflicted with CCW laws. For instance a few years ago, the way I understand it, it may have been criminal to have your CCW 32 on you while you were hunting in NY.
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As stated in an earlier post, if enough people are interested in this, or about anything else, then an ammo company will try to figure it out. I just don't think there are enough people interested in the .410 as a defensive weapon or a hunting weapon. I don't think you are wrong for looking at them but it will need to make financial sense before they will get interested.
A strange person
Member
Wow, someone agreeing with me for a change. I'm not an expert, but based on my experience reloading, I don't see why slugs that heavy could not achieve 1400 fps or so in the .410 while staying within normal pressures. Buffalo Bore could probably do even better with their magic alien powder. It would basically be a .41MAG.
Any laws that conflict with carrying your normal defensive piece (especially in the woods) are obviously a technicality due to vaguely worded laws, and most game wardens would not care about you carrying a .32 while, say, bowhunting or something. You do not cease to be an American citizen while you are hunting, nor does the world temporarily become free of violent criminals. YOUNG law enforcement officers today, however, seem to have been brainwashed into thinking they need to adhere to the letter of the law and prosecute people to the full extent of it even when doing so clearly conflicts with common sense. They don't seem to realize that the law is man-made and thus imperfect, and must therefore be interpreted loosely in order to avoid harming innocent people. They are the kinds of people who arrest children for selling lemonade or drawing pictures of firearms in school.
If more people practiced "subsistence camping" as I do, then more people would appreciate versatility of loadings within a given cartridge/shotshell, especially lightweight ones. It's sad that I have to explain to people why I would want to be able to cleanly take both bunnies and Bambi with the same gun. Anyone who reads "The Backwoodsman" magazine is likely face-palming with me. If I was older and more experienced/credible, I'd write a book or something.
A strange person
Member
That looks awesome, but their description makes me chuckle:
"Turn your beloved .410 or Taurus Judge into a bona fide medium sized game getter with Paraklese Technologies’ Thunderhead .410 3” 168 grain hollowpoint slug."
Ahem... doesn't the .45LC qualify as a "bona fide medium sized game getter"? I don't see how they would get the thing to obturate the bore anyway. As indifferent as I am to the Taurus judge, I am glad that it's popularity has inspired ammo manufacturers to come up with better .410 loads.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I think the biggest problem is still the issue of getting these to fly well from a smoothbore. There just aren't very many rifled .410s (Hoening's may be IT, for what I know), and a heavy, solid, long slug is going to fly even worse out of a smooth bore than a patched round ball would. Ironically, the Judge and Governor might have it over a shotgun here. They only have rifling because they HAVE to by law (NFA '34) but at least they have a little.
If subsistence camping also means you take game at such short distances that a tumbling slug that's off paper at 50 yards will work, then that maybe doesn't matter. But if you want decent range and some reasonable confidence about where the shot will land, a hollow-base slug designed to fly well out of a smoothbore will be your only option. And a hollow base means a lighter slug.
If subsistence camping also means you take game at such short distances that a tumbling slug that's off paper at 50 yards will work, then that maybe doesn't matter. But if you want decent range and some reasonable confidence about where the shot will land, a hollow-base slug designed to fly well out of a smoothbore will be your only option. And a hollow base means a lighter slug.
A strange person
Member
50 yards is a typical shot at a whitetail in the eastern half of the North American continent below the tundra line. I like getting close anyway. I practice stalking just as much as marksmanship. Ideally, there should be blood splatter on my body after the shot. I would be a strict bowhunter if I didn't love guns so much.
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