Why Can't I Shoot DH's M&P?

[3KillerBs]

Take a look at these targets and see if you can help me figure out why I can't seem to shoot DH's M&P.

First, a 7 yard target with .22 from my Mark III and a few shots of .38 special +P from a borrowed S&W snubbie:


Next, a 7 yard target with 9mm from a rented Beretta 92 and a rented Ruger .38 snubbie (I strongly suspect "powderpuff" target loading):

Note: the 9mm up high in the 8 ring was my first shot where the unexpected noise level of an indoor range literally made me jump. I laugh every time I think of how I must have looked -- people must have taken me for some newbie who'd never fired a gun before.

Next, my first .45 shots ever. 7yards from a compact Kimber. Since 1911's fit my hand badly the joint at the base of my thumb ached for 2 days but the target was nothing to be ashamed of:


And finally, a 10 yard target with 60 rounds of 9mm from the M&P and, for comparison, 60 rounds of .22 from my own Mark III:


The error seems a bit low for Too Little Trigger Finger but too high for Jerking The Trigger and, anyway, knowing that I had a problem with this gun, I was paying careful attention to getting my trigger finger right and squeezing the trigger smoothly. Besides, if I had a trigger jerking problem it would show with other guns.

I thought maybe I was pushing the gun out of line while trying to control the recoil so I tried several grip positions and even did about 10 shots with the "death grip" hold but nothing brought the group into position.

And I don't think its a matter of just adjusting the sights to suit me because I've gotten my Mark III carefully tweaked to suit me and DH can shoot it just as well or better than I can. And his targets with that M&P have the 10 ring pretty well shredded (he tossed last night's target before I decided to do all these photographs and the guy who collects the range trash came by so I couldn't fish it back out later).

I don't find the M&P all that comfortable to hold -- even with the smallest backstrap it feels just a bit too big -- but its no worse than the S&W snubbie and better than that compact Kimber.

I'm baffled. Any thoughts?

I've got no intention of getting an M&P for myself, but we won't be getting me a centerfire range gun for a good while, maybe over a year unless we have a large financial windfall, so I need to be able to shoot this one if I'm going to shoot the club competitions' centerfire pistol events and the new ISPC-lite matches.

 

[mr.72]

that looks like my targets when I shoot my Sigma. Everything low-left. I think it's the long trigger pull. I know the M&P trigger has the same pivot design but different internal sear design. I wonder if it's not the long trigger pull.

 

[Jim Watson]

Stock trigger on a Plastic M&P is long, hard and rough. Easy to tug at and move low and left. Also, did you shoot it last after the recoil from the others had softened you up and got you to pushing the gun?

 

[3KillerBs]

I shot those other guns on different days. I noticed the M&P issue a couple weeks ago (I don't shoot DH's gun often but the club just started the ISPC-lite matches so I wanted to practice with the only centerfire gun we own), so this week I decided to work with it and see if I could correct whatever I was doing wrong.

I don't think that the recoil is the issue because that gun doesn't have a lot of recoil -- it just shoves the sights off target and I put the sights back on as part of the follow-through. Its not like shooting the .45 that hurt. I did the little group of 3 on that .45 plate after I knew it would hurt and had gotten the best grip I could get on the ill-fitting gun.

Any ideas on how I could adapt to that trigger? Other than developing a bad habit of aiming high and to the right?

It has to be me that changes because DH loves his gun as it is so I have to use it as it is until we can get me one that suits me better.

 

[357WheelGun]

I've found that making sure my grip is right has the largest affect. Grip high and grip firm. That took care of the low-and-left issue I was occasionally having with my M&P .40.

Oddly enough, I can't get myself accurate at all with a Mark III. Go figure.

 

[3KillerBs]

Photos of my grip:

 

[Gordon Fink]

How long have you been shooting?

~G. Fink

 

[3KillerBs]

How long have you been shooting?

Technically, nearly 15 years but there was a long hiatus while I had babies.

Its been about 4-5 months since I've been going regularly again.

I have to believe that if I had some serious problem in technique it would affect all the guns rather than just the M&P. I could, of course, have sighted my own gun to compensate for poor technique, but the chances that the borrowed and rented guns would all have the same adjustments seems slim.

 

[Chris Rhines]

A higher grip may help. Get the thumb of your right hand up higher, and rotate your left hand forward so it makes more contact with the grips. Your left thumb should be at almost the same height as the slide stop.

Try to grip more with your left hand, and less with your right.

- Chris

 

[FieroCDSP]

Yeah... might be the grip. I might have larger hands, but my left thumb typicaly rides on the frame just in front of the take-down lever, and the web of my right hand is up under the beaver-tail. Give me a few and I'll post some picts.


The over-travel on the stock triggers can affect it also. I'll tend to shoot low-left with my 40 if I slap or jerk the trigger unconsiously. If I focus on the trigger, the shot breaks correctly and accurately.

 

[FieroCDSP]

some picts of my grip: Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and giving bad advice

 

[FieroCDSP]

The M&P is a very "Thumbs forward" gun. I watched a woman on the range tea-cupping a full-size 9mm and the thing was recoiling badly, almost looking like a 357 magnum revolver. A good two-handed, thumbs-forward hold provides incredible control over even the 40cal.
We had some 6.5 second drills at our local match last night. Draw, put five rounds into the center target, reload, and engage either the right or the left with five, in under 6.5 seconds. A second run engaging the center and the opposite side target in the same time followed. My shots weren't perfect, but they were on the target, mostly A's and C's. My personal issue is catching the front sight and focusing. I tend to focus on the target, which the lead is on target due to the M&P's natual hold, but is still a bad habit.

 

[RNB65]

Definitely try a higher hand hold. Also, it looks like you may be hooking the trigger with the joint of your index finger which can cause issues. Trying pulling the trigger with the pad of the finger and not the joint.

Here's the Todd Jarrett video on how to shoot a handgun. He does a good job of teaching the full wrap around grip which really improved my handgun shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

 

[3KillerBs]

I don't think that I can get a higher grip. I'm holding the gun around the narrowest part as the beavertail curves down into the backstrap with it snugged well up into the web of my hand since I have trouble reaching the trigger. I think it just looks low because my hands are so small.

I had been wrapping my weak hand around the front of the trigger guard as shown here on an airsoft 1911 but was very firmly corrected by an instructor, who said that position took my palm off the stock too much.

I'm thinking of trying that grip again -- perhaps I used it as an unconscious, natural attempt to compensate for a gun that was too big for me.

 

[FieroCDSP]

I don't think that I can get a higher grip. I'm holding the gun around the narrowest part as the beavertail curves down into the backstrap with it snugged well up into the web of my hand since I have trouble reaching the trigger. I think it just looks low because my hands are so small.

Are you using the small back-strap? The palm-swell difference can change the grip length quite a bit. Also, for a thumbs-forward grip, the supporting hand should have the fingers point down off the gun at about a 35-45 degree angle, then you wrap them around the grip. It feels funny in your support arm for a while, but like anything, it'll eventually become natural.

I was fighting a terrible pulling problem until I switched from the more comfortable large backstrap to the medium. I wasn't able to pull the trigger straight back and was pulling the muzzle to the right. I switched back to the medium and it cleared up. So don't discount the cumulative effects of the changeable back-straps.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Technically, nearly 15 years but there was a long hiatus while I had babies.

Its been about 4-5 months since I’ve been going regularly again.

Assuming you didn’t have trouble before, you probably just need a little more time relearning the fundamentals. I’ve been shooting for only six years, but it took me almost three years of somewhat regular practice to go from targets like your recent ones to putting all my shots in the 10 ring at seven yards.

Keep shooting and don’t rush yourself.

~G. Fink

 

[Jst1mr]

FieroCDSP....

Just don't ever teach that grip to a wheelgunner!!! A magnum revolver would at least burn, and very possibly remove a portion of your support thumb.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Just don't ever teach that grip to a wheelgunner!!! A magnum revolver would at least burn, and very possibly remove a portion of your support thumb.

I'm well aware of that. It's something I have to keep very up-front in the brain on the rare occasions I shoot one.

 

[chris in va]

Face it, the gun is just not natural to you.

I had an XD with the same problem. Once I figured out it wasn't my fault, I sold it and got something I could actually shoot right.

 

[3KillerBs]

Face it, the gun is just not natural to you.

The thing is that while I might have my own carry gun, to be a Taurus 85, in the next 6-8 weeks if the commissions are good and I can use that in the action pistol stuff, I'm stuck with DH's M&P for centerfire bullseye shoots for at least 6 months, possibly a year or more.

The family has a fairly extentive buying queue for guns and I don't get a third gun until we have a 20 gauge shotgun and a .22 rifle for DD and I to use and possibly the large-framed pistol for DS#1 (the big hands guy).

 

[springmom]

So this is not a concealed handgun you're worrying about, it's a competition pistol?

Hm. If the grip's too big, the grip's too big. You might look at something different for your concealed carry pistol, something you can also use in competition. Or you can keep working on it and see if it really is technique as opposed to the size of the grip. Or you can negotiate with one of the other family members so that your need goes to the top of the queue in exchange for, say, two guns for that person next.

I love 1911's. But my husband's Springfield GI is just a wee bit too big for my hands. It hurts to shoot it and I don't shoot it well. My Kimber I can shoot just fine; still a 1911 but a shade smaller grip.

You might also take a look at an XD. Nice grip on those.

Springmom

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I love 1911's. But my husband's Springfield GI is just a wee bit too big for my hands. It hurts to shoot it and I don't shoot it well. My Kimber I can shoot just fine; still a 1911 but a shade smaller grip.

Sounds like the difference between flat mainspring housings and arched. My large hands prefer arched, probably your husband does too. The flat MSH on my Kimber caused me to replace my grips with something more substantial. Lovely now.

 

[3KillerBs]

So this is not a concealed handgun you're worrying about, it's a competition pistol?

Yes. And its not even my competition pistol, its DH's (both carry and competition -- he loves it so much he's getting the compact too since the butt prints in some shirts).

Our purchase queue is carefully worked out with the aim of getting a gun of each type that can be used by each person ASAP, even if some have to be shared. For the next 6 months or possibly a year (nothing is ever certain on commission), centerfire range pistol is a shared category.

I want a Taurus PT99, but its not realistic to expect it until we've bought my carry gun, a 20gauge shotgun in the smaller adult size, and a .22 rifle in the smaller adult size. At that point we'll evaluate whether that gun, a pistol for my large-handed DS#1, or an AR-15 is the most appropriate purchase. The cost of ammo at the time may also put a .22 pistol for DH in front of it.

 

[givo08]

Some guns may just not fit you well no matter how you try to adjust.

I've seen some shooters shoot a G19 and make 2" groups at 7 yards and then pick up a M&P or an XD and it turns into 5" groups. I've also seen people who were more accurate with an M&P than anything else out there. It may be an exercise in frustration for you trying to make that pistol fit you when it just doesn't.

 

[BullitHolz]

Don't discount the different grips that come with the MP. Try them all, even if the feel so odd your sure they are wrong for you and you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them installed.

I have an MP45 and the medium its my hand perfectly, can't hit worth a darn with it installed on the gun. I put the large on and it feels so awkward I was sure it would simply make things worse, it didn't. My groups went from 6 inches to 2 with that one change.
It's taken me a while but I'm used to them now and going back to the medium size feels all wrong so the large size backstrap is staying put.

Another point about the MP is the trigger. Get a trigger job done by someone like Dan Burwell or another quality gunsmith. This makes a HUGE difference in shooting one of these.

Don't give up on that MP yet!