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Why did the Nazi's or whoever switch from the 7x57 to 7.9x57

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Beak50, Mar 9, 2012.

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  1. Beak50

    Beak50 Member

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  2. Ian

    Ian Member

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    The never adopted the 7x57 in the first place. The cartridge was adopted by many countries, but Germany's military used the 8x57 all the way back to the Gewehr 88. Ballistics are only a small part of why a military force chooses a cartridge.
     
  3. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    No facet of the German armed forces used 7x57. It was designed for export contracts.


    8x57 Mauser as we know it is an incremental improvement of the 8mm cartridge of the Commission rifle of 1888.
     
  4. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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  5. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Germans settled on the 8X57J cartridge in the 1888 Commision rifle because it outperformed the French 8mm Lebel cartridge which was adopted in 1886.
    This ballistic advantage was something the 7mm Mauser cartridge did not possess plus the 7mm became available, mainly for South American contracts starting with the Chileans, in 1891

    The 8mm was firmly established as the new German service cartridge by that time.
     
  6. wlewisiii

    wlewisiii Member

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    It's rather like why we didn't partake of the far superior .276 pedersen after WWI. There were these huge piles of already produced .30-06 sitting all over the US. No matter how much better the .276 pedersen was, there was no way someone like (that rat bastard) MacArthur would allow progress in the military if a few pennies could be saved.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2012
  7. Ar180shooter

    Ar180shooter Member

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    As already mentioned, the Germans never used the 7mm Mauser. The 7mm Mauser was used by Spain, Mexico and several South American countries. Boers in the second Boer War also used Mausers in 7mm.
     
  8. Beak50

    Beak50 Member

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    I know the Nazis never used the 7x57 the question is why didn't they use it instead of the 8x57 that is slower.I know the German 8x57 196gr. had a high B.C.
     
  9. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    If you actually read the replies to your original post, I believe you will find the answer,,,:rolleyes:
     
  10. 303tom

    303tom member

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    To make a long story short, the 8mm Mauser round is better than the 7mm Mauser !
     
  11. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    As the technology of firearms changed in a long progression from the patched round ball, to the very large, very heavy conical projectile (like the Minié ball), to cartridge versions of the same (like the .45-70 and all its cousins like the .45-90, .50-70 etc.), and finally to lighter but much faster metallic cartridge rounds like the .30-40 Krag, .30-'03/'06, 8x57 Mauser, .303 British, 7.62x54R and so forth, many evolutionary steps occurred and each new adoption represented a break with tradition.

    Militaries don't LIKE to break with tradition. AT ALL. EVER. So while testing and objective study might have been able to show in the early part of the 20th Century (as it has over and over again since then) that a .30"+ caliber and a 150-200+ grain bullet was not at all necessary to killing the enemy on the battlefield at any range a human soldier can see and effectively engage another soldier -- and that such large, heavy, and heavy-recoiling rounds could be shown to be HARMFUL to the ability of soldiers to do their jobs well, the major militaries of the world were just not ready to accept that kind of thinking.

    SOME folks did "get it" to one degree or another -- so there were small side trips into short-lived rounds like the 6mm Lee Navy, .276 Pedersen, .280 British, and the much more successful 7x57. But the major advantages these rounds could provide were not accepted by the large, established, hide-bound armies of the major powers.

    Well...not until about 1964 when the dam started to burst and things went a bit haywire. ;)
     
  12. nathan

    nathan Member

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    8mm is like 32 caliber bullet . Spitting that amount of ammo and that fast in a M G 42 is an awesome sight. Many WW 2 vets knew what it can do. And for those who survived Normandy beach landings im sure they have words that we dont want to hear.
     
  13. Ar180shooter

    Ar180shooter Member

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    Basically, the military minds of the era didn't find the cost/benefit ratio of switching calibers to be high enough to justify a switch. Also remember that Hitler was very conservative in his views of infantry armament, and he even originally opposed development of the MKb 42 (The rifle was originally called the Maschinenkarabiner 1942, literally machine carbine, later to be developed in to the STG 44). The project was halted several times by Hitler, who did not like the idea of the project; however, eventually he was won over after having the weapon demonstrated to him.

    Also, the thread is asking "Why did the Nazis ... switch from the 7x57 to 7.9x57?" This means that you're saying the Germans originally used the 7x57 and dropped it in favour of the 7.9x57, which they never did. In this respect, your question was answered; however, it appears that you asked the wrong question. You should have asked "Why didn't the Nazis switch to the 7x57 from 7.9x57?" Basically the same words, but a very different meaning. Grammar counts!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  14. Old Time Hunter

    Old Time Hunter Member

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    During the design of the commission the idea was that a .32 cal offered a better "bleed" out hole. That and 7 was considered bad luck. Apparently 7.92 is not...
     
  15. Dain Bramage

    Dain Bramage Member

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    Forget it, he's on a roll.

    After the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, they decided they needed a larger caliber round than the American .30-06 they were going to face.

    A better question would be why DID the Japanese switch from the 6.5x50mm to the 7.7x58mm, and the Italians from the 6.5x52mm to the 7.35x51mm?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  16. Limey46

    Limey46 Member

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    Read your history, man! The Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor! They tried, but the instructions for their Norden bomb sights were in French, so they hit Tahiti instead, and the Japs had to go cover for them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  17. murdoc rose

    murdoc rose Member

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  18. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Well there is an interesting issue here, though it has nada to do with Nazis. The German's first response to the Lebel was the 88 Commission which was chambered in 8x57J as we know. Subsequent Mauser designs from the Beligian/Argie to the Spanish went with smaller diameter rounds, which were really an improvement because they used fewer resources to accomplish the same results. Less powder, less lead, slightly less weight.

    The question is really why the Germans didn't retool for a 7mm round when they adopted the 98 a decade later. That I do not know. I suspect that if they'd known they'd be redesigning the 8x57J in a few short years anyway, they would have gone with a 7 or 7.5mm. And if they'd known the kind of material shortages they would be facing in the later stages of WWII, I'm sure they would have done it.
     
  19. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    These days we have gotten better at making spritzers yaw shortly after contact, but back then larger caliber ment larger hole, I will make historical note that the old 303 had a bullet that would realiably yaw on contact, but that was the exception at the time. These days the 7x57 would be a shoe in for the military round over the 8x57, heck I think they are even better then the 308, but speaking from a ballistics standpoint a 260 Rem whoops all of them and is capable of delivering massive soft tissue damage as well, much better then our 147gr currently dishes out, but still not as much as the 175gr SMKs our snipers use :D those things are nasty, don't ever shoot a deer with one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  20. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Rather than debate a caliber change that never happened over a century ago lets discuss one slightly more recent that goes counter to everything ballistic we think we know today.

    Why in mid conflict did the Japanese feel compelled to drop the well balanced 6.5x50mm cartridge in favor of 7.7x58mm mid conflict.

    posted via mobile device.
     
  21. Vaarok

    Vaarok Member

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    You have to understand, the very idea of changing from 8x57 to 7x57 is ridiculous. The French came out with a terrible in performance AND in potential round in 1886. Every military on earth collectively dispensed bricks and panicked. The smokeless rifle round was FAR more terrifying than nuclear weapons to the established military order.

    EVERY soldier suddenly equipped with a rifle whose rounds could shoot noiselessly*, flat as an arrow, and faster than lightning, with no pall of smoke exposing their position, was a huge game changer.

    The Germans were naturally the most horrified, and when a deserter showed up with a bunch of ammo and a Lebel, they shoved bucketloads of cash into his pockets and crash-developed the Gew88 with every engineer they could lay hands on.

    Packet loading for lightning fast reloads, like the Italians and Austrians were using. Barrel jacket for better accuracy and harmonics. Rimless, bottleneck smokeless cartridge design borrowed from the Swiss, pushing a ridiculously tiny bullet twice as fast as a 11mm Mauser out of the formerly state-of-the-art, four-year-old Gew71/84s currently in use...

    And then they proceeded to crank out tons of the new rifles and new ammo. Within two years their frontline divisions had the new rifle, ready to hold off the French who were still sore over the Franco-Prussian War.

    And thus, with huge stocks of ammo and just re-equipped for the second time in a decade, there was ZERO economic or logistical reason to re-equip with a commercial cartridge like 7x57.

    Yes, the US did something similar in Vietnam with the M14 and M-16, but it's more akin to the German adoption of the Gew98 and 8x57IS, and for similar reasons- namely the stopgap design (Gew88, M14) did not meet expectations but had filled a role for a few years while a newer/better design was worked up.
     
  22. Beak50

    Beak50 Member

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    Thanks everyone I never thought about the cost it would have been or the thinking of the time "Bigger is better" I guess.Thank's,Beak
     
  23. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    Bigger IS better.
     
  24. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Exactly! Which is why REAL operators go to war with .45-70s!

    :D
     
  25. twofifty

    twofifty Member

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    French 75

    Thanks for the interesting development stories.

    Wrt the French being first with a smokeless infantry cartridge [and the German's feverish response wherein they dumped their 2 year old 11mm for the 8mm] these developments also happened in the context of the French developing their 75mm field gun.

    The French 75 was the first hydraulically-dampened field gun, a huge combat advantage. The French kept this technology a secret until a traitor/spy gave the design to the Germans.

    Too bad Mr. Browning 'only' designed small arms.
     
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