Why did the US army pick the M14 over the FAL?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have to add this:
Are you saying that the FAL is more suited to automatic fire than the M14?

Yes. The M14's biggest drawback in this regard was its very high cyclic rate. Also, a pistol grip stock aids in control.

When it comes to full automatic fire, the M14 is the perfect battle rifle. The M14 will fire full automatic only when the selector switch is installed. Selector switches are issued separately. The company commander -- if he is wise -- locks them in the company safe and promptly forgets the combination.

There is no better solution to the problem of full automatic fire with hand-held weapons.
 
I know, Vern. But at the time, it's what the Army wanted.
And it was a perfect solution -- a useless, counterproductive feature that you could lock in the safe and forget.

Honestly, though, I think the failure of the M15 squad weapon had more to do with the demise of the M14 than that rifle's utility in full auto.
No, Robert MacNamara ordered the Army to adopt the M16. The Air Force had previously adopted it to replace the M2 carbines their base defense forces used, and MacNamara, with his reverse-Midas touch, ordered the Army to follow suit.
 
Good old Bobby MacNamara.

"Hey, I know what let's do. Let's make ONE JET for the Air Force, Navy, and Marines. It has to be a fighter, a bomber, a close air support bird, supersonic, capable of landing on a carrier, and capable of delivering nuclear weapons."

We got the F-111. Fine strike jet. Failed as a fighter, too big for a Carrier, and it lacked the payload of a proper medium bomber (like the Soviet BACKFIRE), and wasn't manuverable enough for CAS (like the A-4 and A-7 were).

Good ol' Bobby...
 
nightcrawler said:
"Hey, I know what let's do. Let's make ONE JET for the Air Force, Navy, and Marines. It has to be a fighter, a bomber, a close air support bird, supersonic, capable of landing on a carrier, and capable of delivering nuclear weapons."
It's a great concept TFX was ahead of it's time, JSF is looking good with the F-35s.

nightcrawler said:
We got the F-111. Fine strike jet. Failed as a fighter, too big for a Carrier, and it lacked the payload of a proper medium bomber (like the Soviet BACKFIRE), and wasn't manuverable enough for CAS (like the A-4 and A-7 were).
i think you mean the f-4 and a-7, which mcnamara ordered the air force to adopt when they were originally navy aircraft. mcnamara cut out a lot of military budget bloat.

limey fellow said:
And some of us are still bitter we didn't get out 7mm British Fals. Silly Generals.
What if the turn of the century american secdef ordered the widespread adoption of the 6mm Lee Navy cartridge. We would have 6mm NATO today.
 
i think you mean the f-4 and a-7

No, I mean the A-4 Skyhawk. TFX's greatest flaw was that they tried to include "intermediate range medium bomber" on the list of roles the new "fighter" was supposed to fill. It made it too big and too heavy for virtually all other roles, and anyone that had paid attention to the air combat data coming back from Vietnam should've known that "big, heavy, wide turn radius" weren't going to cut it against the MiG-21.

But Bobby MacNamara and his Whiz Kids knew better than the pilots. Just like they knew better than the grunts when the issued the original M16 without cleaning kits or a chrome bore and told the troops it was "self cleaning". (Happily, that didn't last too long.)

New programs have a lot more input from end-users. The joint strike fighter went through a LOT of testing by the people that are going to be using it, and the medium bomber is no longer needed, since modern cruise missiles have such long range. The XM-8 was actually sent to Iraq and tested by soldiers; then a list of improvements was made, and those improvements were worked into the 2nd Generation prototypes. Same with the FN SCAR.

MacNamara's big problem was he wanted things HIS way, even if it wasn't feasible or a good idea. But we are WAY off topic now, so...
 
Last edited:
If this turns into another 223 vs 308 thread (which I hope it does) I will post something I posted right before THR went out and most likely didn't receive any attention. It will knock out all those who say 308 is better for a modern military.

I'll just be waiting....:evil:
 
Having both M-14s and FALs, I have to say I have a preference for the M-14 personally. However, the big problem is that a lot of folks forget the times it was all going on. At that time, troops were familiar with the Garand. The M-14 looked similar to the Garand, operated very similar to the Garand, manual of arms were very similar to the Garand, the sights (once upon a time, marksmanship was actually taught in the military outside of the Marines) had the same elevation and windage adjustment as the Garand, the stock design was very similar to the Garand... It was just a lot more familiar weapon to them. Think about things from an armorer's position. They were familiar with the workings of the Garand and the M-14 isn't that great of a learning curve from a gunshop standpoint either. Think of things this way, if I asked which is the better rifle, an M-16/M-4 series rifle maybe even an HK-416, or say a bullpup like the FAMAS or FN-2000, which one would you be more comfortable with? Bullpups have odd manual of arms, heavier triggers, awkward magazine changes, etc. Now a FAMAS or FN-2000 may be the equal or superior rifle to the M-16 style rifles but with the foreign operation designs may be enough to convince you that the M-16 style rifles are better. Think about it, a pistol grip, cocking handle on the left side, heavier trigger, sights that aren't adjustable for windage or more precise elevation...all the same way folks back then may have viewed the FAL the way we view bullpups today.
 
Nightcrawler I can't believe Macnamara would do that. That sounds like something that some guy along the chain would do. Him and the whiz kids etire raison-d'etre was to look at big-picture, not small things. THAT'S the criticisms that can be applied, that they used too broad a brush. And I'm quite sure if the issue were before them they'd want cleaning kits issued, for the simple economic reason that it makes rifles last longer and thus saves money. And likewise I'm not familiar with the aircraft procurement involvement you mention, but if it saves money and build greater numbers of them, that's got to be better - up to a point, of course, as long as they are basically capable of fulfilling the roles.


Evil money don't hold out, start a new thread or something.
 
You mean that doctrinal analysis from 1977, stating essentially that with modern combined arms warfare, long ranged rifle fire from the individual infantryman is less important? Soviets came to the same conclusion in 1947.

Well...one line in that document said something about close combat with small arms becoming "almost unimaginable", but that was before the current trend of limited warfare in urban environments began to form. Extremely close combat is often the norm, now, with powerful support weapons being held back for fear of killing noncombatants. "Operations Other than War" have always been messy like that. (I can't recall...I'd have to dig it up again.)

And yet there are more .308 rifles being issued to current forces than at any time since the M14 was phased out. Turns out that having squad or platoon level sharpshooters enhances a unit's capabilities. That's also something the Soviets realized long before we did. We've moved away from the "one gun for all roles" idea and now have variety of weapons to fulfill different missions.

From Vietnam through the 90s, most Infantry units had M16 rifles and M60 machine guns. Then the M249 SAW started to arrive, fulfilling the empty "squad automatic rifle" slot that had been vacant since the BAR was phased out. Now the .308 autoloading sniper rifles are coming online (XM-110, and the M14 Crazy Horse rifles before it.) and are being issued to regular line units. They're talking about adopting an autoloading, individually-issued grenade launcher (XM-25) to enhance capabilities further. Improvise, adapt, overcome, right?

I carry a "crappy, obsolete" .308 rifle because I like it. I'm not a member of a rifle squad anymore and doctrine doesn't concern me. *shrug* People worry too much about this stuff. People need "their gun" to be the "best gun". I don't know...people just need something to argue about, I guess.

I still say that had we adopted the FAL and FAL-O squad automatic rifle, the adoption of 5.56mm weapons would've been pushed back by a decade. Well, possibly. As Vern said, Bobby MacNamara liked the M16 the Air Force was using and he and his Whiz Kids decided the Army needed to use it, too.

Grunt brings up some very valid points. The M14 was familiar, whereas the FAL was "different", and American shooters tend to be a traditional bunch.
 
*Ka-POW!* Knock Out!!! :what::neener:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA044796&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

People have to read this. I found it extremely informative.

And yet there are more .308 rifles being issued to current forces than at any time since the M14 was phased out. Turns out that having squad or platoon level sharpshooters enhances a unit's capabilities.

Using a 308 as a DMR is fine. I understand the need. But I believe both the Army and Marines use a 5.56mm DMR now. Forgot the designation though, probably MK12 but that's a Navy designation. Using the 308 as a general issue cartridge again would be very stupid. The object is to increase firepower, blah, blah, blah, it's in the link.

I'm not a member of a rifle squad anymore and doctrine doesn't concern me.

Sure, it doesn't concern you but it does concern the military. They operate as a team and need the best weapons for todays battle doctrines. What are the percentages? Like 90% assault rifles and 10% battle rifles used in the Armed Forces around the world? Everybody is switching, whether it's to 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.45mm, or 5.8mm Chinese.

I still say that had we adopted the FAL and FAL-O squad automatic rifle, the adoption of 5.56mm weapons would've been pushed back by a decade.

I disagree. The whole point of 5.56mm was firepower and a lighter weapon. Both the M14 and the FAL are the same thing in terms of concept. They fire a big 308, 20rd mags, worthless in auto/burst fire, not enough ammo to match or trump the firepower of 7.62x39 that the NVA was utilizing. Whether the FAL would have had the same problems in manufacturing as the M14 or not, it would have been replaced at approximately the same time the M14 did by the M16.
 
*Ka-POW!* Knock Out!!!

You say so. It's thirty years old and is a little dated. The gist of it is that long ranged rifle fire is less important in mechanized, combined-arms, mobility warfare, and due to the nature of suppression fire most shots are misses, so more ammo comes in handy. Well, yeah.

It also references S.L.A. Marshall; see Vern's quote from the first page:

That's SLA Marshall, who has been shown a fake. He faked his famous "study" about firing in combat, he lied -- repeatedly -- about his own combat experience and as long as he lived, his story kept changing.

Furthermore, on one page, it insists that there's "no tactical difference" between 5.56 and 7.62, but on another page talks about superior 7.62mm range and penetration. That sounds like a tactical difference to me! Everything is a trade-off; you don't get reduced weight and recoil without giving something up.

Sure, it doesn't concern you but it does concern the military. They operate as a team and need the best weapons for todays battle doctrines. What are the percentages? Like 90% assault rifles and 10% battle rifles used in the Armed Forces around the world? Everybody is switching, whether it's to 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 5.45mm, or 5.8mm Chinese.

The Russians and Chinese aren't "switching" from battle rifles; they never issued them in the first place. The Russians went to an intermediate cartridge in 1945 with the SKS; the Chinese adopted it in the 50s.

What else it doesn't apply to is whether the US should've gone with the M14 or the FAL.

Using the 308 as a general issue cartridge again would be very stupid.

Eh. I doubt it'd make much difference either way in modern warfare. In "traditional" warfare, say, Gulf War 1, small arms are pretty far down the list as far as importance of things goes. How much ammunition you have doesn't matter when you're up against a tank, muchless an attack helicopter or a cruise missile. Our Army could've been carrying M1 Garands and Single Action Army revolvers and the outcome wouldn't have been different in the least for the Iraqi Army.

In operations like Iraq, the individual weapon becomes more important, as the conflict is limited in nature and the heaviest weapons aren't unleashed. Again, though, with near constant resupply available and operations usually being short duration missions, I don't think the increased load of 5.56 would make a decisive advantage in the end. Nor do I think the 7.62's increased range and penetration would make much difference.

Wars haven't been won or lost by what rifles are used since the century before last.

General Eisenhower was once asked which innovations had the greatest impact in the European Theater. He replied the 2.5 ton truck, the C-47, and the Bazooka.

it would have been replaced at approximately the same time the M14 did by the M16.

Too many variables to say for sure. There was a LOT of politics involved in the adoption of the M16; the Army didn't want it, and the Marines really didn't want it. The Air Force loved it. If the Army would've had a squad automatic weapon (the FAL-O), I think the M16 would've been a much tougher sell (on the other hand, the Powers that Were, like SecDef MacNamara, wanted the M16 regardless, so it probably wouldn't have been much different. The M16, as originally issued, was completely inadequate for combat, and even that didn't stop them). As was, the squad was lacking in base-of-fire weapons and it was hoped that the M16, being full auto, would ameliorate that problem.

It didn't; all it did was waste ammunition. Eventually we got the SAW. In any case, 7.62x51 "battle rifles" can't be completely useless; USSOCOM specifically requested that a "heavy" variant be devloped for their new weapon system, complete with "CQB", "STANDARD" and "MARKSMAN" barrels. Thus we've got the SCAR-L and the SCAR-H, as each type has a niche to fill.
 
Last edited:
nightcrawler said:
In any case, 7.62x51 "battle rifles" can't be completely useless; USSOCOM specifically requested that a "heavy" variant be devloped for their new weapon system, complete with "CQB", "STANDARD" and "MARKSMAN" barrels.
yeah but how useful? if you look at the procurement amounts they order about 1 scar-h for every 3.5 scar-L. Perhaps it's only somewhat more useful than the role of the M-14 currently. the US made over a million m-14s, it's not a chautchaut, nobody would dispute that, they didn't dump them into the sea to make an artificial reef or melt them down to make a gaudy piece of public agitprop.
 
I have no idea. But the fact that it exists at all kind of goes against the "7.62 rifles are useless obsolete crap" argument. It's not just for the DMR role, either; USSOCOM is getting the M110 semi-auto sniper system too (basically an SR-25 gussied up a bit).

If you're a small team, far away from friendly forces, with no support weapons to back you up, having a couple of guys with longer-ranged, harder-hitting rifles (much better at, say, disabling unarmored vehicles and such) might not be a bad idea. I'm willing to guess that that was the intent behind it.
 
But the fact that it exists at all kind of goes against the "7.62 rifles are useless obsolete crap" argument.

You can also say that the fact that the Marines and Army are employing 5.56mm DMR's proves that 308 rifles are useless obsolete crap. It goes both ways. However, we know that SpecOps need different weapons for their colorful missions. A common army needs versatility and a group of organic weapons that'll serve well for their doctrine. 5.56mm is the answer and it works well.
 
You can also say that the fact that the Marines and Army are employing 5.56mm DMR's proves that 308 rifles are useless obsolete crap.

Not really. They're just using what they've got until the M110s enter full production. The "Light SDM rifles" can be built from existing M16s. M110s are in short supply and are only going to a few units. That way, if the M110 proves flawed (as it well might; the SR-25 has had its share of problems) the bugs can be worked out and the Army still has something to work with. The first M110 rifles were just deployed to a unit in Afghanistan two months ago.

In any case, you can argue all you want that .223 makes for a better sniper round than a .308, but you're not going to find a lot of snipers that agree with you. A 77 grain "heavy" bullet is still pretty light to be bucking wind out to five hundred meters.

5.56mm is the answer and it works well.

It's one possible answer. The Army was taking a hard look at going to 6.8mm for awhile there, but it's really not logistically feasible in the middle of a war. 6.8 is ballistically superior in every way, but logistics wins wars. Ballistics doesn't.

Also note that there's no movement to replace 7.62mm general purpose machine guns with 5.56mm light machine guns. Range and penetration are required of GPMGs, and those are two things that 5.56 sacrifices in exchange for less recoil.

You know, that "knock out document" you referenced, contradictory and referencing now-debunked sources though it may be, served only to reinforce the idea that which small arm is used isn't particularly important on the modern battlefield. A .223 isn't any more useful against incoming artillery than a .308 is.

And yet the caliber argument continues. The original thread poster asked why the M14 was adopted instead of the FAL. This doctrine discussion notwithstanding, I'm really not seeing what any of this has to do with the original question? Has anyone in this thread said that they should switch to .308 rifles, or are you just acting like someone did because you want to argue about it?
 
Has anyone in this thread said that they should switch to .308 rifles, or are you just acting like someone did because you want to argue about it?

LOL :D

I had predicted that this thread would turn into another 223 vs 308 argument. I then read your post after Lucky's and decided to spill all the info out. Then it went down hill from there.
 
I had predicted that this thread would turn into another 223 vs 308 argument.

No...you said you hoped it did because of your "ace in the hole". I only brought it up because I don't think it was quite as earth shaking as you seem to think it is. I'm sorry I did; I don't like causing thread veer.

I've been repeatedly saying that which caliber an Army uses hardly matters on the modern battlefield, and you're interpreting this as me taking "the other side" of your argument. I'm thinking you should probably start a new thread with a link to your "knock out" thing if you want to argue caliber. This is the internet, though; you never convince anyone of anything in these kinds of arguments.

ANYway...were they able to produce the M14 on M1 Garand tooling? If so, I can see the appeal. If not, I think the nod should've gone ot the FAL, as I think it'd be simpler to mass produce. I do know that the produced M14s so slowly that many 2nd-line units went straight from the M1 to the M16. (There were pictures of the 1967 Detroit Riots in the Armory in my home town; a few of the soldiers had M16s, most had M1s.)
 
Mr. Monkey, I have to disagree with you on that point. The 5.56 is not the best round for the job. You can research it yourself but let me at least throw one little thing your way, this is a excerpt for a posting by Staff Sgt Sledge, while he goes on to praise the 5.56 round its this one paragraph from the article that shows the 5.56, more ammo is good line is a bunch of bunk.

To sum it up, those who get hit by the 5.56mm and keep coming, aren't going to keep coming for long, and are easily taken down by the next round. One thing that the military is teaching now is that you don't just double tap, you keep firing until he goes down. I don't care if he's Navy SEAL, by round three, he's going down -- that I promise)--Staff Sergeant Sledge, currently in Baghdad

The need to carry extra ammo is a useless point if the only reason for that need is the fact that it takes more then one round to put an aggressor down. The need for extra ammo is a moot point if the first round does the job.

Without delving to deeply into my particular professional background, I believe I have enough real world experience, in the particulars of round performance in a given combat situation. First hand knowledge beats paper reports, every time. (Especially that dated material you threw down as a knock out). Given a choice of weapons for combat engagements hands down we (we is defined as PMC units I have been variously attached through out my various given career choices) always selected a variant of 7.62 be it the 39, 51 or 54R; for the sole reasons of multi-role combat usage including but not limited to Range, penetration, suitability for both stand off and close range engagements and a the sheer fact that one round generally did the trick.

When Lt Col. D.H. Parker of Executive Outcomes was questioned about our choice of weapons in several African theaters his answer was simplicity itself " We want to kill them mate, not annoy them" referring to the shorty 16s (then called the xm-15 or Car-15) lack of power even using the heavier m-193 round. This outlines the general flaw in the weapons platform for this particular round. You can spout ballistic speeds all you like, but you can’t fool the laws of physics, lighter round + shorter barrels = less velocity ergo less range/power.

Before you throw out the inevitable, shot placement makes the difference argument let me just say this. When 20 or so skinny sociopaths, pumped up on jamba juice or the given local equivalent are charging at you with AKs and machetes that whole, breathe slowly, find your target “one with the universe” and squeeze crap goes right out the window.

The 5.56s effectiveness stems from a high speed light weight round traveling at high velocities striking a soft medium (IE a chest cavity) this slow down causes the yawing of the round (that’s the tumbling effect for you slower folks;) ) at which point the round loses its core density usually at the crimp point and makes that stretching wound cavity its so famous for. With the new shorter barrels the burn time for the powder isn't adequate enough for the round to achieve the speed it needs to be effective at ranges seen outside urban combat, and even in some cases in urban combat (penetration of a cinderblock wall as a example) The 7.62 family doesn’t suffer from this problem, even out of a shorter barrel, that’s not guess work or paper studies, that’s a flat out fact.

Rifles on today’s battlefields, don't win the war Airpower, Mechanized armor and artillery win wars. On your squad levels machine guns rule the battlefield given the fact both adversaries are trained the ones with the most belt-feds generally wins the engagement. I have wandered all over the topic here. So to stick with the threads original question of why did the US Army pick the M14 over the FAL, no idea, I’m sure there was a mix of Politics, certain Lobbied interests, and a various other sundry of tin-foil conspiracy theories in there somewhere.
 
RNB65 said: The M14 is based on the M1 which was designed by John Garand. The same John Garand who happened to be an employee of the US Army's Springfield Armory.

John Garand actually had a dog in this fight: one of the contenders for the ".30 cal light rifle" competition was the T31, designed by him. It was quickly rejected, possibly because it was - horror of horrors - a bullpup! :eek:

The reasons for the choice of the M14 are briefly summarised in Assault Rifle: the Development of the Modern Military Rifle and its Ammunition by Max Popenker and myself, as follows:

In the early 1950s the T37 evolved into the T44 experimental rifle, which featured a redesigned, self-regulated gas system with short stroke gas piston. Further development and tests lead to the slightly modified T44E4 and T44E5 (heavy barreled squad automatic weapon) prototypes, which were finally adopted by US Army as M14 and M15 rifles in 1957. The heavy barreled M15, however, was never brought into production for financial reasons. It must be noted that the T44E4 was extensively tested against the only other entry in the US trials, the T48 rifle (the Belgian FN FAL rifle made under licence in the USA by H&R Inc.). The trials took place between 1952 and 1956, with first the T48 then the T44 gaining an advantage. Both rifles eventually passed the trials with equally high results, but the Chief of Staff of the US Army finally settled on the T44 because it was slightly lighter, similar to the M1 Garand in manufacturing and operation, and, above all, a "Native American" design.

One point of interest is the success of the various 7.62mm rifles in the export market. The FAL was clearly the most successful, followed by the HK G3. The M14 came nowhere - nearly all of the ones seen in foreign hands were, I believe, donated free of charge from surplus US stocks.
 
One point of interest is the success of the various 7.62mm rifles in the export market. The FAL was clearly the most successful, followed by the HK G3. The M14 came nowhere - nearly all of the ones seen in foreign hands were, I believe, donated free of charge from surplus US stocks.
not really. ROC (Taipei) bought the equipment to make their own m14s in the late sixties. PRC (Beijing) has exported quite a few of the Norinco clones. Limited success due to "monkey see monkey do" factors.
 
No Lucky, Macnamara was genuinely a pompous idiot.

The F4, A6, opposition to the expanded acquisition of the F-104 (the only US fighter of the time that could face a MiG-21 on the MiG's terms and beat it), the M-16 initial issue fiasco, and above all, domino theory.

What did the man do as SecDef that DIDN'T turn into a fiasco?
 
INteresting reading, that's for sure.

I think for the British Commonwealth, coming from the SMLEs in Australia and the No4s most everywhere else, the FN was the better choice. Pistol grip, etc.

For the Americans, the step from the Garand to the M14 was a logical one. Tools, racks, manual of arms, familarity, etc. Made sense.

Both great rifles. Both useless as an auto squad weapon. The 30 round FN with the fold down bipod and full auto option were as handy as breasts on a bull. Too much recoil for the weight of the weapon. We had them when I was in the Armoured Corps, but they never left the armoury.

We used M60s as a squad auto weapon, even after going to the M16. Most of the infantry Viet vets I have spoken to said they embraced the M16 because Charlie shot at the guys who used a FN (SLR in aussie speak) because it sounded like the machine gun, better to stay anonomous than draw fire).

I think if we had of been fighting in the desert or in a s*&thole like Iraq at the time instead of Vietnam, the M16 might never have been accepted.

I love both rounds, if I had to carry all my ammo and re-sup was iffy, I'd prefer the 5.56. If re-sup was good, I'd like the extra punch of the ol' 7.62, bugger this second and third shot stuff.
 
The M-14 is a modified M-1, therefore, a familiar weapon.
The US military big shots of the time were very conservative, wanted not only a US made weapon, but one made by the Springfield Armory, that is a weapon kept in the traditional Government procurement system.
They would not have the FAL for any reason...IT was made in Europe, for God's sake!

I was trained on both the M-14 and the M-16 in the Army.
The M-14 is a good weapon, but I liked the M-16 better,and it's a better GP military weapon, IMO.

FWIW, I now own a FAL.
(And an SKS.)

Mark
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top