Why did US LEO's go to semis? Do you want wheelguns back?

[Cosmoline]

Recent experiences with several Ruger Security Sixes, some odd Colts and a sweet Smith 13-2 have made me question again why the devil so many departments both federal and state ditched their wheelguns and went en masse for wondernines. Has actual duty proven these semis to be better than the revolvers they replaced? Or do they simply encourage "spray and pray" tactics? LEO's--would you feel comfortable with a six shooter instead of a semi?

 

[Ankeny]

I can get a student who has never handled a gun through our state qualification standards faster with a G-22 than I could with a model 66 Smith with full boat .357 ammo. So, there is a training issue. Then there is the issue of capacity, ease of reload, etc. I am no longer in law enforcement, but if I were, I would not go back to a wheelgun.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Fueled by headlines saying that the police were "outgunned" by the bad guys. The definition can be anything you or they want it to be. More rounds, larger caliber, more guns (of any caliber or capacity), more ammo, more extra mags, better shot . . .

 

[car541]

I started off carrying a smith Model 28 Highway patrolman 4" 357. It was perfectly sufficient for my purposes. Really, the only advantages I get from my present automatic are night sights and a more corrosion resistant finish.

I switched to an automatic voluntarily, and having gotten used to it would probably not switch back (I really find the night sights useful), but if I were told tomorrow that I needed to go back to my M28, I would feel in no way as if I were not sufficiently armed. Note that I have carried the same shotgun for the entire period and really do consider that to be my primary weapon for any situation that can be forseen as hazardous.

 

[Fed168]

Training issues, keeping up with the times, the list could go on.

 

[bountyhunter]

Recent experiences with several Ruger Security Sixes, some odd Colts and a sweet Smith 13-2 have made me question again why the devil so many departments both federal and state ditched their wheelguns and went en masse for wondernines.

There was a perception they were outgunned by the bad guys with higher cap weapons. A few shootouts (like the notorious Miami shootout) served to re enforce this belief. In that one, an FBI agent who was shot in the hand reloaded his empty SW wheelgun with six rounds but could not close the cylinder because blood and tissue from his shot hand had gotten into the cylinder ejector. He was shot dead trying in vain to get his gun to work. However if memory serves, another wounded agent who got alongside the car emptied his six gun into both perps so a wheelgun ended the gun fight.

 

[Magnum88C]

I'm sure there's plenty of reasons they switched.
But, around here, in departments where the officer can choose to carry pretty much what they want, the 686 is VERY popular, so is the 1911. Very few carry their issue Gl*cks. Ruger Gp-100s follow the 686 in popularity in the wheelgun arena, and Sigs follow the 1911 in the auto arena. Sig 220s at that.
FWIW

 

[WT]

A friend is in a local PD.

Years ago he carried a revolver. The department felt that they were undergunned and bought Glock 17's in 9mm caliber.

A few years later, the department again felt it was undergunned and bought Glocks in .40 cal.

Again they now feel that they are undergunned and are looking at buying .45 ACP's.

No officer in his department has fired his gun in the line of duty in 30 years.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I think it has a lot to do with capacity. An awful lot of cops are notoriously poor shots, so carrying thirteen rounds gives them better odds than carrying six.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Yes they should have wheel guns. That shooting in Philly other day 343 rounds from 23 cops =1 dead and 1 got away and a shoot up MB. Myself I wish that police would start looking like police again a real
uniform with hat, all gear leather But today we get this military look. If I wanted a seal team to patrol my town I would request one from Fed. Gov.

 

[Cosmoline]

I agree about the way LEO's look these days. Too many "mil spec" types among their ranks. Frankly if I'm ever pulled over by a cop in high polish boots, hat, tie and a wheelgun at his side I'll ask to be arrested just for the historic experience of it all.

 

[Byron Quick]

I think it has a lot to do with capacity. An awful lot of cops are notoriously poor shots, so carrying thirteen rounds gives them better odds than carrying six.

Thirty years ago, I ran into this old security guard. Retired policeman. He was wearing his old uniform as a security guard with no insignia. Apparently he had lost about forty pounds since he retired. He had a 15 inch neck in a 19 inch shirt. He was working at a drugstore that had been knocked over for narcotics repeatedly. Folks in the diner were giving him a hard time over what an old man like him was going to do to drug burglars.

I looked at the pre-model 29 in his holster. Looked at the finish worn off of the grips. Looked at the checkering worn smooth from tens of thousands of draws.

I asked the gentleman if he was the original owner of the revolver. He replied, yep-bought her in 1956. I thien told the folks in the diner what he was going to do to any burglars who came his way. He was going to hold them for the police or for the morgue. I was half right. Two broke in one night. He called on them to drop on the floor. They lauged at the old man. He fired twice. One dead right there. One paralyzed from the neck down.

On the other hand, I've seen revolvers in police holsters that had green vergigis visible around the bases of the cartridges in the cylinder.

But I've seen the same in the home of private citizens.

I know plenty of cops that are not too good a shot. I know plenty of people with CCW who aren't too good of a shot either. I know cops and private citizens who are amazing with their weapons.

 

[Devonai]

If you aren't sick and tired of Mas Ayoob's info, he states in The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 5th Ed. that the highest percentage of hits by police officers were with single-stack autoloaders.

Personally I think that the autoloader that carries 7-10 rounds suffers less from the "spray and pray" mentality, but still benefits from a fast reload. If I was the chief of a department, I would offer my officers the choice of a Sig 220 or 225, depending on personal preference.

 

[Gary A]

WT wrote, "Years ago he carried a revolver. The department felt that they were undergunned and bought Glock 17's in 9mm caliber.

A few years later, the department again felt it was undergunned and bought Glocks in .40 cal.

Again they now feel that they are undergunned and are looking at buying .45 ACP's.

No officer in his department has fired his gun in the line of duty in 30 years."

This reminds me that a few years ago when much was being said in gun forums about the state of affairs in Australia and the new draconian laws the citizenry there was being subjected to, that I happened by chance across a separate article in the newspaper which stated that the Territorial Police of, I think, Tasmania had decided their Model 10 Smith and Wessons were no longer sufficient and were ordering Glock 17s. This at the same time the "state" was attempting to disarm the average citizen! The gap between the free citizen and the constabulary went overnight from equals being separated by respect and authority (not firepower) to a great gulf between the disarmed and the armed; the ruled and the ruler. A darned shame that things come to such. There ain't no right way to do a wrong thing.

 

[MrMurphy]

More shots. Faster reloads. More shots between reloads. Better sights, easier to train, lower recoil in some cases.

The fact that there were (and are) more well-armed bad guys out there now (especially on the Border..... see those Mexican cartel guys who shot up that truck?).


As to the leather-vs-milspec..... you can wash possibly contaminated blood out of nylon gear. Leather, you pretty much have to get rid of it. Nylon weighs less and doesn't require polishing. It's not like cops have tons of time to polish gear off duty or anything. Now that they have nylon gear which looks just like basketweave leather.... what's to complain about?

8 point hats can come off, and are expensive to replace. I know a state trooper who had to replace a very expensive required-to-wear Smoky Bear hat twice in one year from traffic blowing it off and not being able to find it in the dark.
He was NOT pleased. I think his state eventually went to a "optional hat wear" policy or something.

 

[Dienekes]

Why? A general yen to do something different for a change and the FBI Miami shootout provided the impetus. IMHO far more significant than which gun the agency went to were the Calibre Press 'Street Survival' seminars and the development of practical body armor. I provided myself with both at my own expense long before the agency would pay for it and considered it money very well spent.

When my agency started allowing semiautos (mainly Glocks and SIGs) in the mid-80s I still considered myself well equipped with a well-worn .357 revolver.

As an instructor I dealt with all the training issues, and on balance saw no overwhelming advantage to the semiautos. The serious pistoleros shot whatever pistol they had quite well, and the poorer performers stayed poor. Que sera, sera.

I am sometimes inclined to think that if we hired the right people they would have no particular problem managing the 1911--but that is only a retired instructor's fantasy.

There are still quite a few older LEOs who would not be at all sorry to go back to their faithful old M66s.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Byron - thank you for sharing that story of the retired cop turn night watchman. Did he first say, "Go ahead punk... Make my day?"

 

[isp2605]

We went to the S&W Mod 39 in 1968. Training times went down and hits went up. As someone else mentioned it was easier to train someone who had no firearms knowledge. Guys (it was only males back then) started carrying their duty guns more often when off duty as the 39 was easier to carry than a full size wheelie.

 

[Teufelhunden]

If you aren't sick and tired of Mas Ayoob's info, he states in The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 5th Ed. that the highest percentage of hits by police officers were with single-stack autoloaders.

I would posit that 'single-stack autoloaders' is really ONE single-stack autoloader, namely the 1911 pattern pistol. I would further argue that anyone comfortable carrying a cocked & locked single-action only pistol design close to a hundred years old has probably practiced enough with it and is knowledgeable enough to dispell most of the myths associated with the design. The logical conclusion of these statements is that people carrying the 1911 are probably enthusiasts and not average range-dreading cops, which explains the higher hit ratio.

As always, it's a software issue, not a hardware one.

-Teuf

 

[Seven High]

Young LEOs

After 32 years of LEO service, its my opinion that trainee leos, especially females are more easily trained with semi autos than revolvers. I know of several females that were washed out simply because they could not qualify with a revolver.

 

[nhhillbilly]

My dept. went to Beretta's back in 1985 or so. I have carried both wheel guns SW 66 and Beretta's, Colt 1911, Glock 23, 22. Not a problem with any of the above firearms. It is the size of the fight of the dog in not the size of the dog in the fight.

Any properly trained officer with the right equiptment will get the job done if given the chance. They have to train. I shoot at least one a week. Most of my officer only shoot during training about 4 times a year. Better then most Department's.

MY handgun allows me to fight my way to my rifle. My primary weapon if I have a choice.

 

[seeker_two]

Nylon gear, polo shirts, & ball caps on LEO's are OK, but I draw the line at balacavas & black BDU's for anyone but SWAT personnel making a dynamic entry--with a warrant.

Remember when we used to call them "peace officers"?

As for revolvers vs. autos: I'm with the "carry-what-you-can-shoot-best" camp, but both gun and shooter need to be held to high standards. The true tragedy to the Amadiou Diallo case wasn't shooting someone in a dark doorway reaching for an unknown object--it was only getting 11 hits out of 41 shots. All the officers should have been remanded to the Firearms Instructor for remedial training until the hit ratios improved.

Any gun will do if YOU will do....

 

[Sean85746]

If I went back to the DEA, and had to carry the old Smith 3" Model 13, .357mag I was issued as a rookie...I'd be fine.

If I had my druthers...I'd carry the stainless Combat Commander I carried in Panama.

Either way...I never, ever felt undergunned with a Smith wheelie on my hip.

'Nuff said

But, now, for daily carry... take my Tactical Tupperware everywhere. But nostalgia, ans the love of the design is swinging me back to the ubiquitous Browning Hi Power. Funny...carry what you like...great concept.

 

[115grfmj]

Well if you're refering to current crop of combat tupperware.....

it because they simply are idiot proof. In the service we used to call it GI proof. An instructor can take someone with little experience in firearms,
and make them "Good Enough" at least to qual. Unfortunately, this breeds
mediocre results. I don't feel that this is the fault of what is admittedly
an excellent combat implement. Rather a pervasive attitude towards
subsituting technology for training, and hoping for the best. I know enough
LEO's who say basically the same thing.

For me, my 686+ is quicker out of the leather, more accurate, better at
point shooting, quicker reloading (yes I said quicker! Moon clips), than I have
been with any of my autos, and I learned on auto's. And Yes I learned
on autos, since I'm relatively young (31).

 

[Aikibiker]

I recently went through the state mandated firearms training for corrections officers in the state of Florida. One interesting facet of this course is that only a handful of the various corrections departments in Florida issue semiautomatics. We did our shooting with old beaten on S&W model 13s shooting Blazer .38s. Another interesting facet is that the training and qualification courses are identical to the police recruit curriculum. Same number of rounds, same number of reloads, and same time limits. We had to make multiple hits on target from the draw in a short amount of time and reload in the middle. We did this in daylight, at night with a flashlight, and in total darkness using only muscle memory to guide our shots into the barely perceptible outline of the target on a moonless night. I wouldn't feel at all undergunned with that S&W. I have come to enjoy the feel of a well worn trigger whose pull is smooth and steady from countless recruits before me. I also like the steady push of a revolver's recoil over the clanky movement of a semiauto's slide.

Our entire class passed qualification. Some of us struggled, but we all passed. Interestingly enough two people from the last Basic Law Enforcement class took the course with us after failing the last time. They used a very popular semiautomatic handgun used by many police departments during the course and had multiple problems.

I would not however trade my current carry gun, a USP45c for any revolver. The semiautomatic platform offers to many advantages for combat use. For example it is almost impossible to reload a revolver with only one hand. Speedloaders are clumsy in the dark and have the distressing habit of dropping rounds into your pouch as you put them on your belt. It is also hard to mount a flashlight under a revolver. My experience has shown me that this is a VERY desirable modification to any firearm intended for serious use.

The true tragedy to the Amadiou Diallo case wasn't shooting someone in a dark doorway reaching for an unknown object--it was only getting 11 hits out of 41 shots. All the officers should have been remanded to the Firearms Instructor for remedial training until the hit ratios improved.

This is actually not true. I talked with a police LT that had some knowledge of this tragedy. When the NYPD officers opened fire on Mr. Diallo he was standing in a darkened doorway. Behind him was a door with a glass or plexiglass window. Mr. Diallo fell to the ground after being hit by the first eleven bullets fired by the officers and remained BELOW the line of fire for the rest of the shooting. The officers were responding as they had been trained. Firing at the muzzle flashes reflected in the window in front of them.

This incident reinforces the need to identify a target before engaging. It also reinforces my stance on weapons mounted lights.