Why do Air Marshalls have HKs?

Status
Not open for further replies.

grizz

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
412
Location
Eagle River, AK
I went shooting w/ a pilot friend of mine today. He's also an air marshall, and he said that all Air Marshalls are issued HK compact .40s. We both shot his HK and I gotta say, it's a nice piece, but NOT for everyone. The long pull on the trigger took some getting used to, and I was wondering why Air Marshalls (along with other LE officers) aren't given more freedom in selecting their service carry weapon. I mean, everyone shoots best with some particular gun... Some people have bigger hands, some people prefer a different grip angle, DAO, auto vs. revolver, polymer vs steel, etc, etc. Why not simply have certain criteria that a service pistol must meet IF the officer doesn't choose to carry what everyone else is issued???

Also, why these HK compact .40s? Wouldn't a $400 Springfield XD (or something else) work just as well at 1/2 the price???
 
It's the government man. Not everyone in the military is wild for the M16 either. How about simply disbanding the air marshalls, along with every other .gov police agency, and let armed civilians be the front line.
 
I would guess that it was done like many government contracts . . .specifications were laid out, entries were tested, and deals were struck.

From an training standpoint, it is probably easier to train a group if everyone uses the exact same gun.

Although we all shoot some guns better than others, with the amount of range time those guys get at training I'm sure they all come out fairly proficient with whatever gun they spent all those hours on the range with.
 
Ok, so they each have a different gun...scenario...gun fight breaks out where ever with some dept. one officer/agent is down, the other is out of loaded magazines. Now what? With the issue guns being the same, the magazines are interchangeable with each gun. If one were using brand "X" and the other brand "Y", well...
Also it's a bit eaiser for department armorers dealing with one model.
Dept firearms are chosen based on a number of facyors set forth beforehand. Certain criteria, function and chambering fall within this criteria. The one at the end gets the contract. Price is also a important factor. more so in some departments than others. As far as the 4400 XD...you really think departments and agencies pay the same civilians do? :banghead:
 
No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
"No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig."

Don't depend on Wilkipedia to be that accurate or that up to date.
It's a cool site, but you've got to take it with a grain of salt.
 
To each his own, but remember not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID. Each individual agent is issued a duty weapon, not a voucher to take to the neighborhood sporting goods to get something w/in spec. It's about uniformity w/in the agency.
The USPc, the P2000, the SIG P229 are all fine weapons and hopefully doing their parts in keeping our airways safe.
 
"No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig
Please correct me if I am wrong."

Sounds like he's talking about armed pilots and not the FAM. Certain pilots can be certified to be armed and receive some training but they aren't FAM. They're still pilots, just armed. HK is what they're issued.
 
There may be a bit of confusion on who carries what on the planes. U.S. Air Marshalls do indeed carry Sig P229's in 357 Sig caliber. However Federal Flight Deck Officers (these are pilots who have been authorized to carry after a long process) carry the HK USP compact in .40 S&W with the L.E.M. trigger module.
Not sure the in the process used to select the HK for the FFDO's but I am sure the simple ease of use of the gun was a big part of the decision process.
 
BigJim45 got it right.

Federal agencies also like to trade in their weapons every 5-10 years so if you don't like what they use now, just wait a while.
 
+2 for what BigJim45 said.

I met a FFDO at the range two years ago, and he had an HK as described. The Air Marshall I met this year has a Sig.
 
Ah, sorry, BigJim is right, the Delta pilot I was shooting pins with was a Federal Flight Deck Officer and had a HK USP compact in .40 S&W with the L.E.M. trigger. He was an ok shot w/ it, but much better w/ his Kimber.
 
FAMs/HK USP .40s/SIGarms DAK P-229s

First off:
It's M-A-R-S-H-A-L, Federal Air Marshal(FAM)

Not Marshel Marshell or Marshall, if that's hard for you just put FAM, :cuss:

The FAMs use the HK USP .40s because they have the new LEM(Law Enforcement Modification) trigger system. This is a light smooth DA only trigger pull that is safe and better than most SA(single action) or striker fired designs. I have also heard that some DHS(Dept of Homeland Security) FAMs train and/or carry SIGarms P-229 .40s. The DHS got a big contract for the DAK(Double Action-Kessler) SIG models. The DAK trigger system is like the HK/LEM trigger type pistols. The K is for Kessler the German engineer who designed the DAK firing system for SIGarms. I've read in major US gun magazines that many US law enforcement agencies may start to issue the HK P-2000s in .40S&W. The SIGarms DAK P-229s are very well made but I would want a HK P-2000. I'm left handed so the P-2000's ambi features(slide/mag release/etc) could be good for LE/duty use.

The airline/flight deck officer program(that I think is what your shooting buddy is a part of not as a sworn FAM) issues the HK USP .40 to my knowledge but this could change in the near future.

For details see www.usajobs.opm.gov www.dhs.gov and/or www.faa.gov .

Rusty S
PS: I'm not a DHS employee or FAM :D
 
One of my friends is a marshal, and he has a 229 sig in .357. I also don't doubt that different stations issue their agents different weapons.
 
FAM's use sig 229 in .357sig, Da/SA no DAK triggers, at least not on the guns I've seen. The reason behind it I heard was because the head of the FAM program was a former Secret Service bigwig and they used Sigs, of what caliber I do not know. No real science just familiarity with the weapon system.
 
.357SIG/correction: FAMs-Flight Deck Officers

I do stand corrected. The new FAMs are issued the .357SIG pistols but the Federal Flight Deck Officers(the aircrews/pilots) are issued/use the .40S&W USP pistols.

Do any members know if FAMs use Magsafe Glaser or the "Extreme Shock" Air Freedom loads in .357SIG?

I'd think fragmented rounds would be standard issue but they can cost a lot of $$$. ;)

www.extremeshockusa.com

www.magsafe.com

www.corbon.com
 
My take is that someone halfway intelligent in the procurement process discovered that the HK Compact was a good compromise pistol to issue folks who were not all necessarily dedicated pistoleros.

Having worked in the federal gov't, and now for a state, I always cringe a little when I hear people authoritatively say things such as:
not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID.
or
Lowest priced gun that met all operational requirements,that's all...
I'm sure that happens (and probably more on the local level), but it doesn't seem to be the rule everywhere. Were that the case, probably a lot more armed federal and state law enforcement agencies around would be sporting Glocks (not only does Glock offer an incredible price to departments, it buys back the departments' previously issued handguns), revolvers, XDs, Taurus 24/7s or S&W M&Ps.

My department issues the HK USP-9, and I can tell you that's not because of the price (same goes for our rifles and carbines: Colt Match Target HBARS and M-4s). While I'm sure HK gives a nice price to agencies shopping for new pistols (far better than you or I could get), the HKs are still about the priciest (non-1911) production semiautos out there, by far.
 
"Having worked in the federal gov't, and now for a state, I always cringe a little when I hear people authoritatively say things such as:
Quote:
not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID. "

Cringe if you like, but there's often more than a bit of truth to it. When I was in the USAF I worked in contracting and saw where "lowest bid" often played a role in almost every contract I worked.
I was in charge of R&D (state level LE agency) when we went to Glock. We did testing of 15 different makes and models over a period of about 18 months. The top 3 in our testing, in order, were SIG, S&W, and Glock. Bids were then received from those companies for 2500 guns, holsters, and 750 rds per person transition training ammo with our S&W 5904/6904 in on trade. Glock came in at a few dollars over $1/4 mil. S&W was a bit over $1/2 mil. SIG was a bit over $1 mil. Even tho Glock was # 3 in our tests, "lowest bid" played the deciding role in the selection process and it was the lowest priced gun that met operational requirements.
BTW, all companies will play the game when trying to get a contract. S&W did it for years. We were issued S&W autos for 32 yrs. S&W came thru was some very competitive bids when we transitioned to newer guns. Usually than involved even swap old guns for new at little or no cost. When I was involved in our transition to Glock a local PD of about 300 officers put bids to replace their aging 6906s. SIG had just come out with the 357 SIG round and it was just laying there. SIG made the PD a heck of an offer. For the PD's old guns SIG would give the PD new SIGs in 357, all new leather, training ammo, and duty ammo, and a promise that if the 357 round didn't pick up after 2 yrs then SIG would replace the guns with .40s at no cost.
As an aside, 21 of the 49 SP/HP agencies are currently issuing Glock. 18 are issuing SIGs. S&W, Beretta, and H&K make up the other 10 states.
Whether it be guns, squad cars, uniforms, radios, whatever, "lowest priced that met all operational requirements" is the deciding factor. In fact, not taking lowest price that meets all operational requirements can get an administrator time in front of a grand jury, legislative/congressional committee, or the feds explaining why lowest bid wasn't accepted even tho the bidder met all operational requirements. There are procurement laws that have to be complied with. Having been closely involved in procurement processes for both the military and a state agency there's no way on earth I was going to approve a purchase of anything, big or small, where a lowest bid wasn't accepted and the bidder met the requirements. People go to jail for violating state and federal procurement laws.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top