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Why do I get so many of these?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by CptnAwesome, Jul 5, 2018.

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  1. CptnAwesome
    • Contributing Member

    CptnAwesome Contributing Member

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    It's very often while shooting groups with my reloads that I get "that one" flier. I usually shoot 3 shot groups, (I know some preach 5 shot groups) but I get it with them too.

    Two holes touching then one an inch or more away, and not necessarily in that order, could be two shots over an inch apart them the next touches one of the others.

    I'm 100% sure I don't flinch or pull and the gun surprises me every time it goes off.

    So... Is it shooter, ammo, or just the gun telling me it doesn't like the load? Or is it a combination???

    Just curious...
     

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  2. the Black Spot

    the Black Spot Member

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    I have a rifle that just does that. Doesnt matter what load(factory or handload) it shoots groups like that.
     
  3. Toprudder

    Toprudder Member

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    I have a Ruger Mini-30 that will always put the first round out of every mag about 2" away from the rest. Tried multiple bullets and seating depths.
     
  4. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    Parallax in your scope
    Carbon/copper build up in your barrel
    Barrel reaching the end of its life
    Loss of concentration

    Edit:

    ....or, none of the above

    The shooting gods making sure you don’t get too big for your britches

    The worst thing for me is to have the first 4 go through the same hole. That last one is the toughest shot to make
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  5. Doublehelix
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    Doublehelix Contributing Member

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    Boy, ain't that the truth???

    I sometimes see the first shot go astray on some pistols as @Toprudder mentions. I have heard people say that this is due to the weapon being hand-racked into battery for the first load whereas the subsequent loads are racked by recoil. Not sure if I can reconcile this in my mind, but I have often wondered why this is...
     
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  6. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    I have several rifles that, with an unhappy load recipe, will print a 5 shot group: 3 touching & 2 scattered 1-2" away.

    Same rifle, with a tuned recipe, will print 0.5MOA groups.
     
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  7. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Most times it's shooter error no matter how well we think we shot. (me included) It can also be many of the reasons listed above too. Are you sure there is no copper build-up in your barrel?

    Short story. A good shooting buddy has had a .270 rifle for many years that his dad gave him. He tells me the gun just won't shoot good groups anymore and he thinks he needs a new barrel. I asked him about copper in the barrel and he tells me it looks shinny. It was shinny but copper shinny because when he used a good copper cleaner the patches came out so dark green he was amazed. After the cleaning the gun shot very well again.

    I'm not saying that's your problem, only that it could be anything. One last thing, have you had anyone else shoot that gun to see if they get the same results?

    Good luck but remember, unless that is a competition target rifle that group you posted would be three very clean hits on game.
     
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  8. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    Pencil thin barrel with magnum rounds? Although I doubt even magnum rounds will heat up a barrel enough to change poi after only 2 shoots.

    Clean the barrel, shoot one or two fouling shots then start on your groups. Fire one, wait 5 min, then another, wait 5 then another etc.

    If that doesn't change anything, ArchAngel's suggestion on having a different shooter try it is excellent.

    Also what are your extreme spreads on your reloads. I ask because my Grandpas would always be about 2700fps or so with about a 25fps spread then there'd be a 2850fps round in there somewhere. That'll mess with your groups lol.
     
  9. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I left that out because he said it happens with his handloads and factory ammo, not that factory ammo can t have some extreme ES numbers. Could very well be that too.

    EDIT: I must have read the OP wrong. There seems to be no mention of factory ammo, opsss. :uhoh:
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  10. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    Another entry in the “Book of Excuses”

    I’ve read that new, unfired brass will cause flyers
     
  11. Mn Fats

    Mn Fats Member

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    My favorite excuse I've ever heard for a miss was my uncle missed a clay and just shook his head and said "Thanks Obama".
     
  12. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Nature Boy, do what a lot of competitors will do; put it the berm next to the target, and call it 5!

    Seen it done! Even at the Nationals!
    Just be careful, others ARE watching...

    I’ve also heard “Chandlers wobble” blamed; A slight , imperceptible wobble of the earth about its axis. Causes all sort of “disturbances”...
     
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  13. Catpop

    Catpop Member

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    You can shoot one shot groups. No fliers guaranteed!
     
  14. blue32

    blue32 Member

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    Its just the barrel displaying the sine wave.
     
  15. lightman

    lightman Member

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    A couple of other things could be a missed condition or a bullet seated crooked. By missed condition I mean a change in the wind. More info would help. Is it always the same shot, like the first or last? Is it every group or just on occasion?
     
  16. LUCKYDAWG13

    LUCKYDAWG13 Member

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    so how does it shoot with factory ammo
     
  17. higgite

    higgite Member

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    I had a mini-14 that shot strings instead of groups. Key word there is “had”. Frustrating to say the least.

    Have you tried 5 shot groups to see if it’s just one flyer in a group. If only 2 out of 3 touch, it’s possible that only 2 out of 5 touch. Or could be 4 out of 5. Is the flyer always the same shot in order? First? Second? Third?

    What’s the load? What’s the rifle? What’s the distance? How long between groups? Details, details, details.
     
  18. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    We all have done it. What I find that helps is to use a black ground where you can't see where the holes are till you actually go to the target. Then the mind game of seeing a tight 1 hole group want put any pressure on you. If you can't see it it does not impact your concentration. Parallax is one little thing that fall short on the cheap scopes. A test for that it try shooting from the sides and see how far the bullet shifts. Light weight barrels are only designed for a couple of shots before they start to drift. Need to weight at least 5 min with the bolt open to aid cooling. Also don't leave your ammo in the chamber to cook if your shooting a lot, then take a brake. It will heat of the ammo and change the velocity.
     
  19. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The classic 4+1 group. They call it the waling wall for a reason. "If I had just got that one in the group"......
    Two Benchrest Targets.JPG
     
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  20. denton

    denton Member

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    There is a cause that has not been mentioned yet: The design of the threads in the barrel/receiver joint.

    The way threads are cut, about 2-3 threads end up taking the load. With conventional threads, it is hard to make a really rigid joint.

    There is an alternate profile for for cutting threads that one gunsmith and another book author both swear eliminate fliers from that cause.
     
  21. Dudedog
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    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Something like that is the answer!
    There always seems to be one that just doesn't want to go along with all the others, if the first 4 are touching the bullet fairies like to slightly deflect the 5th one for fun.
    I you look real close thru pink shooting glasses you can see them hovering in front of the targets.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it, bullet fairies:)
     
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  22. z7

    z7 Member

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    It is all about how you address the rifle each shot, I struggle with this in my 308. See a good group and get all excited, then, without realizing it, you get some “extra focus” and change your body position because you are really trying to make this pretty group

    You change shoulder pressure, cheek weld pressure, breathing, etc. you change something small and the recoil exploits an opening

    It is a small point of impact change based on your body position

    Next group you fire, dry fire twice with “perfect” form twice before each round and see if it helps
     
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  23. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep. When I first started shooting Benchrest, I was told that if I was going to do this, get ready to eat a lot of humble pie. They were right. :)

    The only difference between those two targets, besides the different point of impact from differing conditions, was I made a mistake on one shot on the second one. There is no such thing as a flier with good equipment, or at least you will never get better blaming bad shots on anything else besides yourself. Yea,, once in a blue moon it isn't you, but rarely.
     
  24. spitballer

    spitballer Member

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    It's hard to see how fouling would affect 3-shot groups. Maybe try minimising vertical spread?
     
  25. joneb

    joneb Member

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    I get 3 rounds from 5/8 to 3/4 " groups at a 100 yrd from a Howa sporter 22 " 1:12 twist in .308 Win. consistently with a 150gr Nos BT F- 210 primed 45 gr Varget and a COL of 2.80" if I shoot a five shots the group opens to one inch, I assumed this was because of barrel heat.
     
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