Why do my muzzleloader bullets penetrate so well?

[Newtosavage]

Late yesterday, I shot a very large feral pig sow with my CVA muzzleloader. 50 cal shooting 44 cal Hornady 250 grain FTX's in plastic sabots. Shot was 50 yards. The bullet went completely through and left a big hole on both sides. MV is only about 1850 fps.

After locating the sow and verifying two holes (as I suspected based on the blood trail), I asked myself whether I've ever NOT had two holes from my muzzleloader kills, and the answer is no. I've shot probably 5-6 deer and as many hogs now with my muzzleloaders, always a similar combination of 44-45 cal. 240-250 class bullets like the FTX and some hollow point Remingtons. I purposely choose bullets that are designed to expand at lower velocities.

A few years ago, I shot a whitetail doe at a lazered 145 yards with my Ruger muzzleloader. I estimated the impact velocity at around 1400 fps and the 240-grain Remington soft nose hollow point went all the way through her like tissue paper.

This pig was a considerably thicker target though. Why do you suppose these slow, heavy bullets penetrate so well? No fragmentation? Controlled expansion at those lower velocities? More mass to drive through? Just curious.

 

[fireside44]

My belief is it's the slug size. A .50 Cal muzzleloader is a lead hog. I've seen a BP rifle burn a clean hole through the thin part of a railroad track using a lead ball like it was butter. POKE! I'm thoroughly sold on bigger and slightly slower bullets than the fast moving lightweight barrel burner projectiles for fast kills and quick takedowns of game.

 

[Steve S.]

That mass with that kind of energy at that distance, why would they not? My 250 Shockwaves go thru deer like they are not even there at moderate ranges - but so do my 150 .308’s, 405 45-70, 250 .45 Colts, etc - mass with enough energy at a given distance - get enough distance (or bleed enough energy) and the projectile will not penetrate.

 

[someguy2800]

Heavy and slow has always been a proven combination for deep penetration. If you have enough weight even very low sectional density bullets will penetrate very well. This is why I don't believe in sectional density as a predictor of bullet performance. People that always talk about sectional density are missing something. The thing they are missing is that sectional density doesn't scale. Say for example if you have two bullets, one is .243 diameter and .the other is .375 diameter, both with the same sectional density. With similar velocity and expansion which is going to penetrate further? The .375 bullet of course by a lot. Reason being is it just has more mass and kinetic energy. The only thing sectional density will predict is how far a bullet will penetrate reletive to its diameter. The same two bullets above probably do penetrate about the same number of bullet lengths, but the actual penetration in inches will be drastically different.

The second part of this is the impact velocity. Impact with tissue will be similar to air resistance in that the resistance to the bullet should square with velocity. So doubling the velocity will quadruple the resistance. The modest impact velocity means there is much less resistance to the bullet traveling through the tissue, and the tip of the bullet will not expand as violently so the frontal area of the bullet will be less than if it had impacted at a higher velocity.

 

[mcb]

I have shot a fair number is deer with muzzleloader, shotguns, rifles and handguns and the only thing that has not exited was 410 Remington sluggers. Everything else including Brenneke 410 slugs has always exited.

I think the moderate velocity of muzzleloader combined with the heavily constructed projectiles they typical use results in fewer projectile failures and greater retained mass. This increases penetration.

The few bullets I have seen recovered in the critter tend to have been high velocity rifle rounds that have lost allot of there initial mass during the impact. My father killed a big buck last year with a 6mm Rem. We found the bullet just under the hide on the far side and it only weighed ~30 gr of it's original 100gr.

 

[25-20 WCF]

I would not call a 250-grain pistol bullet going 1850 fps ‘slow’ by any means. The OP has a .44 Magnum carbine equivalent rifle, not a .50 caliber muzzleloader. I’m not sure what the OP is comparing his observations against, but handgunners are used to this kind of penetration. Here as with most handgun examples, the bullet held together and penetrated well. Nothing out of the ordinary.

.

 

[taliv]

so you're saying that a projectile at 2700 fps would penetrate LESS than the same projectile at 1850? and at 3200 fps? and 1200 fps?

 

[jmr40]

Informal observations are not the same as testing under controlled conditions. Shoot those soft lead balls at 3000 fps and see how well they penetrate, shoot a 170 gr 30-30 bullet at the same 1800 fps as the muzzle loaders and it'll match them for penetration.

SD is still the best predictor of penetration, but you have to compare apples to apples

243 diameter and .the other is .375 diameter, both with the same sectional density. With similar velocity and expansion which is going to penetrate further? The .375 bullet of course by a lot.

There are no 243 diameter bullets made that can come close to the SD possible with .375. In order to improve SD and stay within the same caliber the bullet has to be longer. You do reach a point where it is no longer practical to make the bullet longer in that caliber. That is when it is time to move up to a bigger caliber.

When you compare bullets of similar caliber where SD's overlap between them, then the bullet with the higher SD will always penetrate deeper regardless of caliber or weight. And this has been proven under controlled conditions. A 6.5mm/140, 270/150, 7mm/160, and a .308/180 all have similar SD's. They all give very similar penetration. But if you need more penetration most of the 6.5's and 27's can't handle bullets heavy enough to help. You have to go up to 7mm with 175's or ,308 with 200's to go to the next level. And once again there is a practical limit to how long you can make a 7mm or .308 bullet.

There is nothing in North America that a 30 caliber 220 gr bullet won't handle. But that is about the practical limit in 30 caliber. You have to once again move up to a bigger caliber in order to get more SD. That is where the 375 and larger calibers come into play. And yes, a 220 gr 30 caliber bullet will out penetrate some 375 caliber bullets. And most 33 and 35 caliber bullets. Assuming all other things are equal such as bullet construction and shot placement.

so you're saying that a projectile at 2700 fps would penetrate LESS than the same projectile at 1850? and at 3200 fps? and 1200 fps?

You have to match impact velocity to bullet design. It is almost unheard of for any bullet to actually fail. 99.99% of the "bullet failures" we read about are due the bullet being used outside of its design parameters. Or, the bullet performed exactly as designed, and the shooter wanted something else. Most modern hunting bullets work well between 1800-2800 fps impact speeds. Some, such as those designed for 30-30 are designed to still work at slower speeds. But those designed for slower speeds will fail at speeds below 2800 fps.

Others are designed to stay together at well over 3000 fps. But those bullets often fail to expand at speeds below 2200 fps impact.

 

[redneck2]

In theory a .30 rifle bullet that mushrooms 50% would end up being .45 caliber and I guess should give a .45 caliber hole

Three reasons it won’t penetrate as well as a solid.45 caliber bullet.

(1). Obviously it has less weight, less mass but the same frontal area as the .45

(2). I’m of the belief that a significant portion of the bullets energy is used up to transform the shape during expansion

(3). Once the bullet expands, it flips around. The expanded tip acts like a parachute. The energy required to drag it backwards would be substantial

 

[Nuclear]

Large diameter, heavy, soft, slow (in modern terms), firearm projectiles have been used to take animals all over the world, including large, tough critters like Bison, for example. Before such bullets were outlawed for use in warfare, the wounds they inflicted were horrific.

Why wouldn't they still work?

 

[Goosey]

This is why I don't believe in sectional density as a predictor of bullet performance. People that always talk about sectional density are missing something.

What they are missing is that sectional density is not a fixed value. The sectional density usually changes when the bullet hits the animal.

SD of a .308 180 gr bullet is .271.
SD of the same bullet when it loses 1/3 of its weight and expands to twice the diameter is .045.

That's six times lower!

 

[DocRock]

Big hunks of lead traveling sub 2000 fps are big medicine for most creatures. Through the skull shots or breakbone shots on really big fellows, the Cape buffalo family, bison, the big African plains game would likely do better with harder, less expensive monometal solids.

But Big Lead Good.

 

[alsaqr]

Perusal of the Hornady bullet site showed no .44 caliber 250 grain FTX pistol bullet. Nor is there a .44 caliber FTX muzzleloader bullet.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/

There is a .452 caliber 250 grain SST bullet. i've used that bullet on deer and hogs for many years and it has performed very well for me. The muzzle velocity of my load is 1,850-1,900 fps.

https://www.hornady.com/muzzleloading/browse/#!/

This is the photo of two boar hogs killed with one shot from my .50 caliber muzzleloader using the 250 grain SST bullet. The bullet exited the shoulders of both animals:





The same bullet fragments when hitting heavy bone:

 

[Sav .250]

I and others I `ve talked to about the same situation, don`t seem to have a clue. In one side and out the other. Most were good shots.
looks like from this conversation, it`s a fairly common problem.

 

[748]

44 mag rifle almost does the same thing but take the 240-300gr bullets and stuff them down a muzzle loader and with its effectively unlimited case capacity and the BP gun has the advantage.

 

[Archie]

Muzzleloaders have always been good penetrators. Even back in their heyday. Heavy bullet weight give a lot of momentum and lower velocity prevents massive expansion and weight loss. That produces excellent penetration.

Penetration may not the best indicator of stopping or killing a game animal. But you asked about penetration.