Why do we tolerate paramiltarism in our policing forces?

[cordex]

Brownie,
In '72, two Israeli athletes (Moshe Weinberg a coach, and Joseph Romano a weightlifter) were killed outright in the initial assault when they tried to stop the attackers. The nine Israeli's who didn't escape (with time bought by Weinberg and Romano) were held hostage. After a deal was reached with the Arab terrorists, the German authorities decided to have their snipers knock out all 8 goblins simultaneously while allowing them to think they would escape. Things didn't go as planned. When the shooters opened up, a terrorist set off a hand-grenade destroying a chopper, and the remaining hostages were gunned down.

The three surviving terrorists were imprisoned and later released in capitulation to another terrorist attack.

So, when CZ said:

The one where all the hostages died?

... he was correct.

Perhaps you would be advised to look it up. I did.

As I've said before, I've got no problem with cops carrying effective weapons, but just because an attacker might drive into a tank with an armored vehicle (or steal a tank, ala the San Diego incident) doesn't mean our police need AT-4 launchers to be in the trunk of every cruiser by the spike-strips.
Mere potential does not a likely scenario make.

And, hey ... I've got no problem with police buying their own keen weapons and even getting a nice fat budget to train with, but I dislike the idea of Smalltown Village spending umpteen thousand taxpayer dollars to outfit a SWAT team in case Aunt Hilda goes on a rampage.

Plus, I dislike paying out the nose to arm those who actively support disarming me.

 

[bjengs]

dav and cordex are right on.

I personally am not against LEO's being properly armed. AFTER the general populace is properly armed. I just get sick of hearing what the LEO's "need" and how they must have a "show of force" and all sorts of other stuff. Worrying about what improvements in armaments they ought to have is a stark example of putting the cart (the standing army and the privileges we grant them) before the horse (the RIGHTS of the people).

 

[sw442642]

Lots of talk when the key issue is the War on Drugs that caused the misuse of SWAT teams.

The laughable follies of some small town chiefs is not the real variance.

It would seem that many areas could use folks with special training to deal with terrorists, active shooters and the like.

Get rid of the drug war (a flame bait and one can seach on it) and the problems with no-knock warrants, mistaken identity, etc. go away.

Give the fiasco of Columbine, having some folks trained and equipped for that incident should be what SWAT is for. Same with the TX tower.

 

[Edward429451]

Get rid of the drug war

Yeah. Anybody catch COPS recently where the COPS were selling marijuana to people and then busting them and informed them that they were keeping their cars under the forfiture laws. (cept one lady who they told she could buy hers back b/c it wasn't nice enough for them)

 

[Steve in PA]

Any non-police person want to try and guess how hard it is for a police department to try and convince the powers that be that they are in need of AR's....or MP5's, etc????????

I'm a LEO and pro-gun.......so I don't have a problem with "civilians" owning an AR, or anyting else. But when the street cop has to answer a call and all he is armed with is his duty sidearm.....I've got a problem with that.

Don't like the show of force??? Guess what.....that show of force is what stops a problem or quickly solves it before something tragic happens.

"I dislike the idea of Smalltown Village spending umpteen thousand taxpayer dollars to outfit a SWAT team in case Aunt Hilda goes on a rampage."

Yeah.......let some other agency handle the call.......why have trained officer to take care of the situation......should one arise.

 

[CZ-75]

Yeah. Anybody catch COPS recently where the COPS were selling marijuana to people and then busting them and informed them that they were keeping their cars under the forfiture laws. (cept one lady who they told she could buy hers back b/c it wasn't nice enough for them)

Best way to keep your car from the po-po is to owe money to the bank. Another COPS episode they were asking the so-called "perps" if they had any liens on their vehicles.

Protect and Serve, my @$$.

Profit and Skim seem more to the point.

 

[Steve in PA]

Some people don't mind....or really care about getting busted for buying drugs, etc......but......find out that they could loose their vehicle and most will freak.......and stop.

I'm pretty sure the seizures only happen in the bigger towns with the heavy drug problems. I haven't heard of or read of any such seizures in this area.......unless the person busted was a major dealer.

 

[CZ-75]

Give the fiasco of Columbine, having some folks trained and equipped for that incident should be what SWAT is for.

But SWAT was there. That's why all those kids were rescued.

Oh, wait. Nevermind. The kids were murdered while the SWAT team was wringing its hands waiting outside the building. At least they didn't have to wait 2 hours to be murdered while SWAT was arriving.

 

[CZ-75]

find out that they could loose their vehicle and most will freak

Yeah, and your kid could be smoking a joint in the borrowed family car with his friends and the police can sieze it for the "public good."

A friend from your dorm can have a joint on him and drop it in your car during a traffic stop (happened to me, but he didn't drop his joint). Cop asks the somewhat antsy friend to get out and finds joint. You lose car.

Don't forget that finding wild hemp could be used to "prove" you cultivate marijuana on your property. You lose property and must prove that the hemp is wild.

Now, they've expanded the forfeitable crimes list to include solicitation.

 

[Edward429451]

I'm pretty sure the seizures only happen in the bigger towns with the heavy drug problems. I haven't heard of or read of any such seizures in this area.......unless the person busted was a major dealer.

IIRC, it was Miami. They were teeny little bags of it, less than 1/8 oz by the looks of it. Thats what I thought was weird. No major dealers there. Just cousin Tony lookin people. I'm no druggie and I aint stickin up for them but dangit, it didnt look right. It was entrapment for peanuts just to get the vehicles and they pretty much said so! I have a hard time not seein it as highway robbery and organized crime by the police, state, whatever.

AmI missing something here? Cause I don't think so.

 

[Steve in PA]

Then you best be talking to your little Johnny or Susie shouldn't you........then find new friends to hang out with.

 

[CZ-75]

Then you best be talking to your little Johnny or Susie shouldn't you........then find new friends to hang out with.

Taking some family's car is such an effective solution. Same with taking people's property b/c of who their friends are.

Capital punishment is effective for preventing shoplifting too.

Profit and Skim. Profit and Skim.

Anyone still wonder about the low opinion many folks have of the po-po?

 

[riverdog]

We had an incident in Santee, CA where one kid started shooting other kids. First LEO on scene was a PO from San Diego who was just a father dropping his own kid off at school. He asked what the commotion was about and with the school principal followed his nose, containing the situation. San Diego sheriff deputies arrived soon after and that's the team that apprehended the shooter. Nobody waited for SWAT or a supervisor or anybody else. Good cops are good cops. I would rather have more better-than-average LEOs on the street than just average LEOs and a SWAT team in the bullpen. More training for the street cop would go further than having a “teamâ€, by whatever name. This brings me to my gripe.

I don't like "SWAT" as a description of these teams. Is weapons and tactics what they're about or do they have a real purpose? There's too much emphasis on what they carry and not enough emphasis on a real mission. Focus; keep your eye on the ball. The mission is to serve and protect, to rescue hostages, not to use special weapons. FBI's HRT is a good example – Hostage Rescue Team. They may use different weapons than normal everyday agents, and they may dress like ninja’s, but they have a mission. I won’t comment on how well they execute that mission, but it seems that every time they’re used it’s after another team blew it -- whatever. It’s just a gripe I’ve had. This seemed like a good thread to air it.

 

[toro]

I don't believe in drug seizures. What about the rest of the family. Someone's wife and children, who may need that vehicle to survive? I don't get it. I really don't believe in taking away something that belongs to someone else. As far as drugs go they never stop. Same as drinking if they are addicted they just don't stop, even if they loose their family over it.

Everytime I see a vehicle that says seized with drug money, it makes me angry. Our local sherrif seized a Corvette from a drug dealer and later got in trouble when his son was driving the Corvette for personal use. At any rate it is not just the criminal who suffers it's his whole family.

Mrs. Toro


_____________________________
1 Samuel 31: 5,6
And when the armorbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armorbearer, and all his men, that same day together.

 

[Steve in PA]

Wanna know my opinion of the people who can't control their kids??

You want to hang out with a bunch of dopers......go right ahead. You hang around garbage long enough.....you'll start smelling like garbage.

So the heat gets turned up to stop drug activity......don't like the heat......get the heck out of the kitchen!!!

 

[riverdog]

Then again, maybe it's because the only time you hear about SWAT is when something goes wrong and the wrong house is raided or the wrong guy gets shot. We never hear about good things because they're probably not going to sell papers.

 

[Steve in PA]

And yes.....the whole family suffers.......a drug user/dealers car gets seized......its the only vehicle......and now the family has no means of getting around. Maybe the driver of the vehicle should have thought of that before he/she decided to drive down to the local drug hotspot for a quick fix.

Same for a DUI driver who looses his license because of his DUI conviction. Yeah it stinks for the family........again.....guess the driver should have thought about his family. But......that doesn't seem to matter.

 

[CZ-75]

So the heat gets turned up to stop drug activity......don't like the heat......get the heck out of the kitchen!!!

Hasn't worked yet.

You want to hang out with a bunch of dopers......go right ahead. You hang around garbage long enough.....you'll start smelling like garbage.

Guilt by association.

What's next? Trial by ordeal?


Oh I should add that last I saw the guy I mentioned, he was applying to law school and divinity school. So, I don't hang with "dopers." Moreover, when was pot considered "dope," or worse than alcohol? I'd be better served staying away from drinkers than tokers any day of the week.




Profit and Skim. Profit and Skim.

Good thing po-po wear badges, lest we be unable to tell them apart from the criminals.

 

[Marko Kloos]

Enough.