Why do we tolerate paramiltarism in our policing forces?

[Orthonym]

No, El T, the purpose of the police

is to direct traffic, keep order in public places, and keep a watch when other folks are asleep. How _EVER_, due to the large number of us craven slackers in the populace these days, someone had to fill that vacuum so abhorred by nature, to wit, the absence of the old Hue and Cry and the immediate, ferocious response thereto. I just love the idea of a criminal running for his life TOWARD the police station, begging to be arrested so that he may be tried and hanged in good order, with due ceremony, instead of being torn to pieces by the outraged victim and his neighbors. Ain't gonna happen around here.(sigh) Please see my post on that locked thread about the SC Lieutenant-Governor getting stopped in traffic. I guess what I'm trying to say here is something like, "Well, we're not very good citizens, so I suppose we have to have cops. Since we have to have cops, they must be PERFECT".

 

[Combat-wombat]

the government can't use the military on us, so they arm the police like the military.
In our town of 25,000 there are AR-15s and shotguns, both up front in the CHP-style patrol cars with the lights inside the car and not on top.

 

[brownie0486]

spartacus2002 :

With all the talk here in this section about citizens crying foul at restrictions to arms because somebody MIGHT screw up and their rights being denied based on others possible actions,

I see you hold to the same theory by wanting to restrict cops from carrying AR's as a few might be wanting for judgement in their use.

Would you be saying that it isn't right for citizens to be denied something based on others possible actions which you don't think is right and then post that the police should be painted with the same brush you give so much disdain to?

Double standard? The irony is overwhelming me.

Brownie

 

[spartacus2002]

Would you be saying that it isn't right for citizens to be denied something based on others possible actions which you don't think is right and then post that the police should be painted with the same brush you give so much disdain to?

Double standard? The irony is overwhelming me.

Double standard? OF COURSE there is a double standard! Due to the nature of their role, the police are the only citizens authorized to use force for other than self-defense. We authorize them to use force in situations where non-police are not.

And giving them deadlier and deadlier tools raises the fear that they might use them inappropriately.

Am I saying that all police should never have ARs? No. What I am saying is that something is seriously wrong when every patrolman is so armed.

 

[brownie0486]

spartacus2002 :

So you would have no problem with the government deciding the same thing about every civilian carrying one as well?

"Restricting them" based on the premise that it's seriously wrong when every one of them has one?

Your statement that "And giving them deadlier and deadlier tools raises the fear that they might use them inappropriately."

Could that not be the same theory used to restrict them from civilians?

If you feel the LE types may "use them inappropriately" [ and there are 500,000 LE's in the country ] wouldn't that negate all the hubbub here from others about having them restricted to civilians for the same fears?

After all, there are, what?, 250,000,000+ people in the country and only 500,000 or so cops? Would the same theory of possible inappropriate use and subsequently restricting them for the 500,000 LE not be that much more aggravated by the 250,000,000 civilians who many here feel all should have the right to carry?

Brownie

 

[Steve in PA]

"Am I saying that all police should never have ARs? No. What I am saying is that something is seriously wrong when every patrolman is so armed."

Theres an old saying........better to have something and not need it.......than to need it and not have it.

I'm sure every cop involved in the North Hollywood shootout wished they had an AR in their vehicle.

And yes....the department I work for here in PA has both a shotgun and a rifle in the vehicle.

 

[Kharn]

My po-dunk, back-water county sheriff's office bought an armored car about 5-6 months ago. Complete with pintel mount and shield to protect the gunner (ala Vietnam-era M113). No one has ever seen it move from its designated parking spot in front of the building. I want to know what type of weapon they have to go in that pintel mount, I doubt its very crowd-friendly...

Kharn

 

[MrAcheson]

I believe that brownie and steve have hit the nail on the head for me.

This forum has a very hypocritical viewpoint on firearms when it relates to LEOs. If its an AR for you and me is commendable and praised, but somehow when the normal LEO gets one its a problem? A non-hypocritical position would be, "LEOs and civilians should have access to these as desired." Granted thats not the usual outlook of an LEO, but thats doesn't give us leave to make the same mistake.

I think Boats initial article could use some rebalancing before you start sending it to mainstream press. The growth of an LEO capabilities is not a bad thing. So what if small towns have SWAT? Chances are if they didn't, then the response times from a neighboring town who did would be unacceptable.

Its the overuse of those capabilities in a way that damages individual freedoms that is the problem. Likewise the use of military dress, behavior, and tactics in domestic situations is simply driving larger wedge between LEOs and the populace. You might want to make sure you make that point tactfully when your talking to the general populace.

 

[MrAcheson]

Kharn, considering the riots UD had a few years ago (that spring/summer where every uni had a riot) it wouldn't be a bad place to mount a good water cannon or tear gas grenade launcher.

 

[toro]

Reference -- http://www.journal-news.com/


Fairfield police rehearse stopping a killer
Fairfield, Ohio
Fairfield police trained hard for something they hope never happens. Inside a school, a gunman has fired shots and is holding hostages. A team of four Fairfield Police Officers weapons drawn, rush to the second floor of the school, where the gunman is holed up with a hostage in a classroom. The officers on the outer left and right of the "quad" formation check each doorway before passing as the group cautiously but swiftly heads to the classroom, where they hear shoots and cries for help. One officer darts into the classroom, with "second close behind." A third and fourth flank the door for 360-degree coverage. The officers pepper the suspect -- who is standing over the victim, holding a gun to his head -- with nonlethal "simmunition" paint bullets. In another scenario, the shooting suspect holds his hands up in the air to surrender as officers shout at him to drop the weapon until he complies

Though the quad training concept of immediate rapid deployment has been around since the late 1970s, the 1999 Columbine school shooting sparked an increased interest in quad training said Lt. Scott Scrimizzi.

He first trained Fairfield officers in the tactic a couple of years ago, which thrust's regular patrol officers into the fray. The first officers to arrive on the scene where someone is shooting or stabbing hostages must act first, he said. "It's really so you can deal with an active shooter incident where SWAT isn't really able to respond."

Mrs. Toro


--------------------------------------------------------------
1 Kings 17: 22,23
And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again and he revived. And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: And Elijah said, see, thy son liveth.

 

[Kharn]

MrAcheson:
The armored car is in my home county, opposite side of the state from UD. I dont think UD has/needs an armored car (they definitely dont keep one in the cop lot, I could see the lot from my dorm room last year), since they always call Newark's Finest whenever they need to arrest someone more serious than two or three drunk fratboys.

Kharn

 

[CZ-75]

So what if small towns have SWAT? Chances are if they didn't, then the response times from a neighboring town who did would be unacceptable.

That's a big "what if." How many small towns are going to experience the kind of dangerous situation that requires SWAT more than once every 10 years? Meanwhile, there will be pressure to use what is considered an "underperforming" asset just so the PD can justify it's existence and budget expenditures. Considering the small budgets and the less-than-choice candidates that tend toward the low paying rural jobs in LE, it would seem that few departments could support these teams to an adequate level of equipment and training. Unless, of course, they employ them as revenue agents and privateers to expropriate the property of alleged drug dealers. This scenario becomes circular, as the "need" for a tactical team becomes "evident" and ever greater with each arrest, which leads to expansion and greater requirements for funding.

I was reading Jeff White's post a way back on the fact that the ISP or FBI would take hours to get to his town, so it is prudent that the SD or his PD have a SWAT type team available. This made me think that that isn't really the case and the ISP (or any state police agency) should be structured such that they have major posts equipped with SWAT such that they are no more than 2 hours drive from any location in their zone, as well as being able to requisition helos for even faster response.

I can't see the need for every small town to have SWAT and think that the LE in the area should pressure their state agency to provide enough resources in the area to meet the needs of smaller population centers.

 

[brownie0486]

CZ-75:

You find being held hostage for two hours with death imminent acceptable?

You find two hours to wait for swat to arrive acceptable at an LA scene type bank robbery? Two hours with local officers under attack by two heavily armed masked bandits with auto's?

Oh, maybe you think rural podunk USA doesn't have drug wars, bank robberies that can go bad, no house breaks where a burglar is surprised and holds a hostage?

I would rather have them 20 minutes out from staging and developing a plan of rescue.

I would also contend that if the locals had a felony warrant suspect barricaded that there could be many things going wrong before the feds were "on scene" as well.

It's not a big what if, it is realistic as any small town can have and does have the same issues with drugs and all the crime that goes with it as an aside.

Requisition helos? How much money would be spent on helo's? I was under the impression quite a few here had issues with the money spent on swat gear and training/tactics.

I think we could probably train 20 swat units, gear them up, give them those really expensive mp5sd's you think cost too much for a whole lot less than one Bell chopper on standby 24/7 and all the support that that entails as well.

Local depts don't have to spend the money as a rule, they get grants from the our federal tax dollars. Same place the MSP got those really expensive mp5sd's you think are overpriced.

Now you suggest spending 1-2 million on a chopper so they can get there in time? How many teams can be equipped for that money?

You state "I can't see the need for every small town to have SWAT and think that the LE in the area should pressure their state agency to provide enough resources in the area to meet the needs of smaller population centers."

I thought you vehemently disagreed that the state police need mp5sd's in another thread and could get by with something more like 500.00 rather than 2500.00 Are you now suggesting the state take over swat locally?

You do not know what "an adequate level of equipment and training" is to begin with from your other postings about their equipment and needs so I see no reason why you would then state

You: "that the LE in the area should pressure their state agency to provide enough resources"

Would you be talking mp5sd's by "provide enough resources"? The MSP were given the adequate resources recently and you took much offense to that in another thread. Am I hearing you correctly? Did you actually figure out that they do need the equipment or did you think I would forget your rantings about them spending the money elsewhere here.

You seem to contradict yourself here where other posts are concerned, care to explain the turn around? You are not turning objective on me now are you?

BTW--A Bell helicopter--$1.5 million roughly[ turbo ]
3 crews of 2 on 8 hour shifts = 6 men, two as alernates for vacations and sick time needs, all their gear, all the needs of the chopper and a maintenace crew [ minimum of three ]. Full maintenance crew to support it.

Oh ya, if that chopper needs fixin, better have another as standby if thats the only rescue personnel equipped to handle a swat mission.

Lets see
8 crew members--full time
3 support mechanics--full time
Gear for all
2 Bell helicopters

How much will this cost me the tax payer per year to keep this plan of yours viable [ and at that a 2 hour acceptable response time [ your number]?

I think the money is better spent training and equipping them locally. They know the area, they know the players [ for the most part ].

Did you actually just post this off the cuff or did you give this any consideration at all before posting? I remember, it was a money thing with you on the mp5's and now you want to buy them helicopters.

Okay now

Brownie

 

[Boats]

We could ask Mr. Gallardo's survivors about the danger of small-time SWAT units--if he were still breathing.

Can anyone seriously deny a change in temperment between before the Dinuba, CA SWAT team was formed, and after?

Without a SWAT unit what would they have done with the same information?

1. Pick up the son at school.
2. Pick up the son at work.
3. Pick up the son on the corner.
4. Call the parents and ask that they bring junior downtown.
5. Send two officers by and pick him up for questioning.
6. Call for really professional high risk assistance from a bigger nearby agency.

What they do? Bypass all of the low pressure methods and employ the ninja-assault on a family which outnumbered the person of interest about 13-to-1 three or four months after forming the unit. (BTW, they didn't even bother to confirm that the subject was actually home!) With that much potential for something to go wrong, it is pretty clear that they didn't know what they were doing. It wasn't like a crack house wherein everyone is a suspect.

It is entirely safe to say that without the SWAT tactics, (notice I am not even mentioning the weapons), Mr. Gallardo likely would have survived his encounter with the Dinuba police department because they'd have employed more sane tactics, by necessity, if they hadn't the temptation to go in "hot" and literally surprise the life right out of him.

 

[CZ-75]

You find being held hostage for two hours with death imminent acceptable?

You're overstating your case.

Hostage negotiaion is the first step, not storming the building w/ SWAT. This process would eat up enough time for SWAT to deploy. Again, I mentioned helos, should they need to get there sooner. Helos wouldn't cost more than keeping a SWAT team in every town 365 days a year until they need them and the state police have them anyway, so they may as well use them. Additionally, helos are good for search and rescue duties, unlike SWAT teams.

Personally, I don't care if the state police SWAT team has MP-5s, I just don't want every officer on airport security duty issued one. And what I really don't want is the issue of SMGs being pawned off as a panacea for terrorism. SMGs would've done nothing to stop 9/11 (unless the 19 hijackers watched too many Bruce Lee movies and decided to take on airport security head-on ), since stealth was the order of the day. Assuming other hijackers/terrorists will employ similar methods, SMGs will be similarly useless. Stop insulting our intelligence. I hope HK isn't giving you a kick-back to suggest why SMGs are the solution for every security situation.

 

[brownie0486]

SMG's [ specifically the mp5's ] aren't the solution, they are the preferred equipment of the swat officer.

Hostage negotiating? I don't think you will find negotiators at every seen, just hostage rescue where the perp is in contact with them outside via landline, mobile or mega phone.

Were the lapd waiting for swat or a negotiator when the two were banging them hard before swat got there? Negotiators is not an answer to the question asked, please try again to defend the expected two hour delay in response.

Our SP have two choppers at their disposal that are used regularly in other missions at the present time. Are we to take them away from their looking for escaped felons? From arieal searches for lost individuals? I think you would have to have 2 on standby or at least purchase two more for your scenario, otherwise somebody is going to wait a long time [ 2 hours ] when a minute is an eternity. That is a quick answer that won't work as well. Please try again.

Every officer on duty at the airport does not have an mp5. Where did you glean that from? And yes, mp5s have a long history relative stopping terrorists. Remember the 72 Olympics? and then hundreds of cases since where they are used to defend us against the same threats posed by them.

SMG's don't stop terrorists ?, who's insulting whose intelligence here?

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

Remember the 72 Olympics?

The one where all the hostages died?

Just proves SMGs are useless against high explosives and terrorists with a death wish

SMG's don't stop terrorists ?, who's insulting whose intelligence here?

See above for the answer.

Hostage negotiating? I don't think you will find negotiators at every seen, just hostage rescue where the perp is in contact with them outside via landline, mobile or mega phone.

Seems like you've pointed out a deficiency with LE then. More towns and/or counties should focus on getting senior personnel trained as negotiators, rather than playing Rambo. The locals could even work as a fill-in until a dedicated negotiator can arrive on-scene. Nothing would prevent the locals from getting a negotiator on the phone from a larger metro area, either.

Our SP have two choppers at their disposal that are used regularly in other missions at the present time. Are we to take them away from their looking for escaped felons? From arieal searches for lost individuals? I think you would have to have 2 on standby or at least purchase two more for your scenario, otherwise somebody is going to wait a long time [ 2 hours ] when a minute is an eternity. That is a quick answer that won't work as well. Please try again.

Get real. How often do any of these things occur simultaneously? How useful is a helo in finding a fugitive out of the blue? Seems bloodhounds are more effective and a helo is only good when used as an aerial spotter to find a fugitive being driven from cover by search teams. National Guard choppers are often used for search and rescue, so allocating police resources wouldn't be too big a problem for an hour or two of flight time into a hostage situation, should a search and rescue scenario arise concurrent with the hostage scenario.

HK must love you, since you think SWAT is such a cure-all.

 

[El Tejon]

Nothing wrong with HK54s and ARs. They are just tools, whether in my hands or Officer Friendly of the West Lafayette Police Department. See nothing wrong with my police being prepared.

The weapons are inert mechanical devices. They exert no eeevil influence over the officer. Training is always the key.

I believe what people are upset about lies in the legislative branch where the silly laws originate. The police are merely the physical manifestation of the silly decisions made in our General Assemblies and Congress.

 

[brownie0486]

LA has quite a few negotiators, they were not used in LA as that scenario was not going to stopped by talking to them.

Dynamic being what they are, hostage negotiators have their place but they are not always used or needed as the LA situation confirms. It wasn't their deficiency in no negotiators there was it?

No, not all the hostages died in that altercation. Look it up.

National guard called in? Sure, they can be called in. Are you advocating using federal resources for state functions and problems?

Blood hounds and choppers sir. Not one or the other as you suggest.

It's not how often these things ocurr simultaneously, it's can they happen concurrently. The answer is yes, and to hope they don't in your scenario is to not believe in the 6P principle.

How do you extrapolate HK with swat? Thats only one of the many courses available through them to LE and certainly not the only company providing it.

El Tejon: Now we're talking, 54's indeed. I like that.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

No, not all the hostages died in that altercation. Look it up.

No, only the ones not released by the terrorists.

National guard called in? Sure, they can be called in. Are you advocating using federal resources for state functions and problems?

No, only that it is done and can be done again. I didn't know search and rescue was considered a "state" function, but even so, the governor has a legal right to access his state's National Guard resources.

How do you extrapolate HK with swat? Thats only one of the many courses available through them to LE and certainly not the only company providing it.

They are one of the biggest vendors of "toys" to SWAT teams. Hence, any advocacy of increased roles for SWAT translate to increased HK sales.

 

[brownie0486]

Search and rescue on and over state land/ state taxed lands is a state function with no jurisdiction by the feds. unless interstate flight has ocurred by the BG.

Sure it can be done and has been. Should we leave ourselves vulnerable to the availability of their equipment is the question?

I've seen NG called out, 3-5 hours to stage and another couple to get on scene. When you life is in the balance and every minute you have the gun to your head seems like a weeks time, do we want to wait to react is the question.

I don't feel waiting, unless it will not be a possible detriment to the outcome, is acceptable. If you were the hostage you may feel the same way.

What is clear is that these are all potential options but they have flaws in their design and can't be relied upon to solve the situation with expediency which is most often a critical factor in the outcomes of these events. Expediant response has and will continue to save lives. The two hours you suggest is unacceptable at the very least and almost criminally negligent if in that two hours of waiting one more person dies as the cops had to wait two hours for a response team to stage and enter.

Brownie

 

[riverdog]

You guys are talking like there was no hostage rescue before SWAT was invented.

I would prefer to see fewer SWAT teams and more training for regular cops. Particularly in small towns where the LEOs probably fill both roles anyway, simply having better equipment in the trunk of their cruisers as normal issue makes more sense than having to redeploy as a SWAT unit.

As far as North Hollywood goes, any deer rifle would have done just fine. A head shot at 100 yds can be done with any rifle I own, including my Rem 700 ADL in 30-06 with iron sights. Even my 30-30 Marlin would do it.

IMHO, my $.02 and all that.

 

[brownie0486]

riverdog:

A valid point and one being instituted throughout the country fro over a decade.

Lee County Sheriffs Swat are regular patrolman with their gear in the trunk. They get a call, they are staged and gear up for the two minute war.

Others around the country are performing these same tactics with their regular line officers. I think it may even be the exception that there are full time swats around without actually being working street cops as well.

Good thought process there.

A good dear rifle would have been just the ticket as you mention, since the cops would look pretty weird extracting a hunting rifle [ can you imagine the people here who have a major general disdain for LE thinking "hunting" and cops in the same breath ?] from the trunk.

Brownie

 

[CZ-75]

Search and rescue on and over state land/ state taxed lands is a state function with no jurisdiction by the feds. unless interstate flight has ocurred by the BG.

There is no BG in search-and-rescue operations.

I'll defer to riverdog on the necessity of every one-horse town needing its own SWAT team.

 

[dav]

I'm appalled by the divisiveness this board shows on basic issues. This is why the anti's are winning. Even on the most basic 2nd amendment principles we do not agree.

The problem with SWAT is that it is a symptom of our society refusing to accept personal responsibility for our own and our communities mutual safety. We conferred that power to the police. Once it existed independent of any individual, it was no longer accountable and grew to excess.

This is the normal existence cycle of any political organization.

If the police feel the need for a shotgun in the front seat, there is absolutely no reason they should not have one... AS LONG AS I CAN HAVE ONE, TOO! Same for SMG. Same for any other weapon, armament or training.

I want the citizens in charge, and the government serving us. But you can't have that in a nanny state, and that is what the majority of current Americans seem to want.

As long as the mentality exists that "they should do something about that", or "the government owes me a living" then our country is in a death-spiral.

I hope this is vitriolic and extremist enough for all of you.