Why do we tolerate paramiltarism in our policing forces?

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Hkmp5sd,

It started by the creation of counterterror forces in the German military (GSG9).
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To be persnickety, GSG-9 is part of the German BGS (equivalent to our Border Patrol). They are a civilian paramilitary force. :cool:
 
Ian:
Swat training domestically has evolved and been tweeked over the years as any tactics are. The learning curve is high with many scenarios played out which had not been thought of initially or were then considered for change based on outcomes on the streets of the US during raids/rescues.

It's everchanging and fluid. The dynamics encountered under duress of these events on the streets of the US requires honing the skills as well as possibly changing their requirements and tactics as something is deemed unacceptable through practical applications on the streets.

What was thought to work and has failed has been changed, always with the officers safety as the foremost consideration while performing these functions in the real world.

When you use a handgun for your personal defensive needs and discover the technique is flawed through practical application where one used it before you and it got them killed, you restructure your own thinking and adjust accordingly based on the preceived reason it failed. You have learned through others mistakes and changed your tactics/armament/and support equipment.

This is a logical progression on the swat types training and it will continue to be tweeked until such time as technology takes the threat of injury or death from the equation. Until then, the swat boys have to learn by doing, and die by their mistakes. When one is involved in life and death encounters and sees something has not worked [ for whatever reason ]they quickly react to the errors and tweek their tactics further.

It is a natural progression in the development of something better, based on the actual events, which can lead to better and safer tactics and equipment. Hence, with the years rolling by it stands to reason they would hone their skills, share this knowledge with others in the same capacity and continue to educate each other based on their collective knowledge base across the US.

Though I don't like the term "war" where it concerns the streets of the US, there is nevertheless a major problem for LE's on the streets realtive their safety. The causes of the war are numerous and diverse but in certain areas of the country the LE swat types are the only line against total chaos and uncontrolled violence.

I don't believe we can let the inner city gangs control turf through violence nor allow the drug dens to operate with impunity. It takes a dedicated, highly trained team to deal with these problems which the regular line officers are not equipped to deal with either in tactics or equipment they are issued for their road duties.

Swat is constantly tweeking their tactics in an attempt to outwit, outman, and outgun the BG's who act with impunity where regular patrol units are concerned. The dangers faced by swat types in urban warfare against the BG's are seldom considered by many here who only see them as JBT's or worse.

I get the impression some here believe they [ the cops ]actually want to risk their lives entering a dangerous situation and enjoy taking bullets going through the door. Imagine if you will the thoughts of a father with two sons and wife waiting for him to come home at the end of the day. In a few minutes he knows he will be part of an assault on a drug lab and has been staged and is "good to go". He isn't in the lineup because he enjoys putting himself at risk of death everytime he is called out. He is in the lineup because he believes he can do some good for his community and has taken the responsibility of his profession to the far ends of the spectrum where life and death are in the balance for him and others everytime he suits up at the staging area before going into harms way.

He is called JBT and other names by those who oppose his position and call to duty. Most LE's that work in that venue also are line officers first. Swat is usually all volunteer, no one is made to work that venue, they take on the role knowing full well the dangers they will face due to their mission statements. It's when all else has failed he is called upon. When the situation dictates someone has to charge forward into the lions den and nobody in their right mind would do so willingly without a death wish.

It's my opnion that some here who bandy between them the JBT theories of the swat types would be the first ones to say "no" to actually suiting up and heading into the melee that awaits them. They would leave that to others and not move forward, yet take issue with the ones who do go in harms way and how they perform their function within society.

It's pretty easy to paint the swat types as JBT's when they sit in armchairs and monday morning quarterback the units every mistake. I would profer that these same people experience a pucker factor 10 ocassionally where when they make a mistake they will likely die. Then they may just have a renewed respect for the hard job the swat teams have and how easy it is to make mistakes while under the threat of immediate death in a dynamic scenario that will last no more than 2 minutes usually.

Are there offciers in that venue who should not be part of the team? Sure there are. For the most part they are honest men and women who are holding the line against the BG's controlling the streets.

"I once complained because I had no shoes, then I saw a man who had no feet."

Brownie
 
With all due respect, brownie, I see very little "Monday morning quarterbacking" of the tactics or officers, and more questioning why those officers have to be put in harm's way in the first place. (Much less in a situation that predisposes everyone involved to be in a "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" mindset that frequently has disastrous results.)

You've read enough on this board to know that Boats is no wild-eyed anarchist, and also has spent his time serving his country...
 
I agree with that. We should question the "why for" more. No question.

I have all the respect for Boats for many reasons from reading his posts. I merely explained that the mil types have taken the urban lessons/tactics from the civilan venue after gulf1.

Boats, if I have offended you in any way, it certainly wasn't intentional.

Edited to add: I was responding to a thought process brought about by Ian. Boats, nor anyone else specifically was on my mind when I wrote about monday morning quaterbacking. It ws used in a general sense about how swat is looked at by some here.

Brownie
 
brownie, whoa up a minute and do some comparing.

The traditional U.S. LEO wears some sort of relatively casual uniform and carries a handgun. Plus, maybe a nightstick. Think "Bumper Morgan", if you will.

The change in even street cops in some areas (Austin, Texas, e.g.) to a BDU-type of dress, with combat boots, certainly appears more military to me. Carrying an AR15 or M16 is military looking. The mere possession of "Sniper Rifles" by a police department is within the traditional realm of the military. The anti-riot gear and other equipment looks very much like that used in so many other countries' more military-style police forces.

Note I'm not saying these aren't useful, aren't needed, at certain times, in certain situations. They certainly are. But if all this stuff ain't militarization, what is?

I think most folks are worried about an increase in an "us vs. them" attitude. I am; I've seen a bit more of it in recent years than in past decades. I see it a bit more in the younger officers than in the old hands. Most folks are worried about the relative lack of accountability in the upper administrative echelons when there is a misuse or a tragedy in the use of SWAT units.

And I note there is a lot more to the word "militarization" than just the gear or just the SWAT teams...

Art
 
Brownie--

Do some time boarding ships from motorboats in a war zone and get back to me on the pucker factor. Breaking a door is easy compared to the feeling of having to scramble up rightdamnnow! 35-60 feet of unknown ladder on a Third World freighter with no cover available.

I have not ever, to my recollection, employed the term JBT. I have the utmost respect for true SWAT professionals but little for those that took a long weekend at the shooting course and decided to gear up to go to war on pot growers in the trailers outside of Mayberry.

The real chicken and egg question posed by the proliferation of questionably qualified SWAT units across the nation is this one: Did the criminals really become more dangerous or did they simply gain the impression from the media that they needed to be ready for the ninja-clad assault tactics of their opponents as glamorized in magazines, local newscasts, TV and movies? Offense drives defense drives offense in a vicious cycle.

My own opinion is that a certain segment of law enforcement has basically gone and overdosed on the "war talk" of the War on Drugs and played a hand in terrifying the populace into supporting their partial transformation into quasi-militaristic units.

And please spare me any more of the "sainthood" speech about volunteering to make a difference. That is only one side of the coin. The darker one is to be the "best" and to "test" one's self in "battle" by forming or joining a SWAT unit. Of course the "battle" is sometimes claiming the lives and property of innocent civilians without so much as a decently executed cover-up attempt, let alone a decent apology or promise to reform.

I digress, as they are obviously above reproach in a republic such as ours.
 
federal $$$ is the key

1. all cops want the most effective equipment available
2. all effective equipment costs money
3. all departments are badly underfunded without help
4. help comes from the federal government
5. cops get their equipment
6. cops are happy
7. happy people don't complain
8. happy people have gratitude towards their benefactor
9. the benefactor is the federal government, not the people in the community they directly serve

in other words, they become beholden to their new unholy master, the federal moneylenders.

So even if the whole community cries: "we want out old peace officers back" they dont care. Without the means to hit 'em in the budget pocketbook its all impotent whining.

"We demand our old friendly cops return or we'll... uh... hmm, gee whizz stopping our monetary support won't work anymore... ummmmm. or we'll... we'll yell some more! Yeah, that'll fix em."

We 'tolerate' it because it happens before we notice it happened. What to do then?
C-
 
Art Eatman:

I don't agree that line officers should be in BDU as well. I see no need for it and their issued gear. Thats are great issue you brought up. One I don;t see here in my area but am aware it is happening more and more across the coutnry. I don't like it, it sends the wrong message and stand n the same side as you on this issue. I look at it as escalation of the us vs them mentality.

Though I don't believe the gear they wear is militarism, it certainly can be said the BDU came from that venue. A lot of gear has been designed around the swat needs and the mil types have picked up the pace in the same venue. I'd have to think some gear is mil in origin and some in the private sector developed to fill a perceived need.

Yes, I believe the younger officers are, for the most part, in it for two reasons. The first thing drawing them is the pay [ at least here in my area ], then they badge [ and all the expected privledges that go with it ].

Sad to say but that is a very real problem in my area and has gotten worse in the last 10 years as the ranks have swelled and the older officers have retired.

The admins are indeed the immediate target, but they can be controlled through votes. Don't think these incidents in recents years of screwups by swat ops isn't putting some heat on them. It's just not an issue that stays surfaced long enough to affect a change.

You see, having been one and now out, I know of what you folks speak, having lived it. Though I defend there existance and responsibilities to perform in helping others and believe in their principles and tactics there are legitimate issues spoken here about this.

I believe the system is out of control from where I personaly would like to see it be. I also realize that swat does more good than harm, though harm will always ocurr in the two minutes it takes to perform their normal dynamic entry.

There will be mistakes, high risk warrants need to be effected sooner rather than later as the information gets stale quickly, these guys are always on the move.

What they wear while performing the swat assignments is not an issue, they need what they have and more at times. The regualar line officers have no need [ in my opnion ] to be dressing that way.

Hey Art,
I think I just agreed with you 100% on this one.

Brownie
 
We live about 25 miles from a big city. These police officers are as a rule very rude. I guess dealing with the BGs gets to them. They have killed many black people who have not been armed. They have had the justice department on their backs. They have so many law suits against them the city has to borrow money to pay the millions of dollars to the families of these black folks who lost their sons. Some of these people have been good hard working people. Mistakes happen, but when you have to pay millions above what you are insured for something must be wrong.

The police in our community are great. It's yes sir. Thank you sir or madam. The Chief and the city council say they want their police to be polite. It has been since 1928 that any officer has been killed by a BG in our community.

I think the SWAT people look just like the German storm troopers. Have you noticed their head gear? Those helments are exactly like the old German helments. That's what I think of when I see the SWAT teams on TV.

Mrs. Toro


-------------------------------------------------------------
Jude 1: 9-11
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.
 
I was amazed to see swat teams for those tiny towns in the original post. I grew up in small rural communities, before moving to LA, PRK a while back. It bothers me when I go home and see that there are more cops in my hometown (pop. ~13,000) than in irvine, CA (pop. ~140,000).

Just for fun, I looked up the crime rates for those small towns.

Eufaula
Hyattsville Fond-du-Lac

And here's LA, just for the hell of it.
Los Angeles

-erem
 
IMHO, a LEO should be a VIRTUOUS badass,

and should look the part(s). I believe that both qualities are necessary for a peace officer, with neither one by itself being sufficient. Two examples: When I was a kid in Coral Gables, FL, the policemen dressed as gentlemen, yet were still unmistakably cops,i.e., dark blue traditional policeman's cap, short-sleeved white shirt, dark blue trousers. I think they had dark blue jackets for cold weather or necessary sneakiness. The G-man is famous for saying something like "When I was an FBI agent we went everywhere and did anything in our three-piece suits and wingtips!" My idea of a (close to ) perfect peace officer is Lamar Potts, sheriff, long ago , of Coweta County, GA. When he died, I believe the mourners included people he'd sent to prison, who wept like babies along with everyone else. I think he was one of those guys with such tremendous moral authority they're capable of invoking a guilty conscience in people who claim to have NO conscience! You don't need to believe me , read the book: "Murder in Coweta County". I'm sorry, I don't remember the author's name right now, but it should be in most public libraries. I just wish our local policemens' uniforms didn't make them look quite so much like security guards for a coal mine.
 
I like to see "traditionally" dressed LEOs.

I like to see shotguns up front.

I like to know there is an AR in the trunk.

Re SWAT:

I like to see them as intimidating looking as possible. It saves lives.

I like them as well armed as possible. They want it? Fine with me, so long as they can articulate a reasonable need.

However... I like to see well trained street cops. Their training and equipment budget should not suffer to ramp up a SWAT program.

Re LEO chacks and balances:

The respective executive and the judiciary branches involved must adopt strict guidlines and, importantly, foster a culture wherin the deployment of SWAT is seen as a closely gaurded last resort.
 
I like to see shotguns up front.

I like to know there is an AR in the trunk.
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Well, many of us DON'T, because other than a situation that needs a SWAT team, regular police shouldn't need a shotgun or AR-15.

They are supposed to be of the people and for the people, to serve and protect, not to be highly armed badasses striking fear in the hearts of the citizens.
 
The respective executive and the judiciary branches involved must adopt strict guidlines and, importantly, foster a culture wherin the deployment of SWAT is seen as a closely gaurded last resort.
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Thats just wishful thinking.:(

'closely guarded last resort' Bwahaha. I needed a good laugh this morning.
 
Why do we tolerate paramilitarism in our policing forces?
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1) Theoretically, I am against it and say so every chance I get.
2) Locally, I lay low out of fear of retaliation.

MR
 
When bureaucrats pay a bunch of money to have a SWAT team, they expect to see results from the money they spend. It’s a very normal response from a bureaucrat. Unless the SWAT leadership is strong enough to limit their involvement to specific actions where they are needed, inflation will take over and they will eventually be brought into every action where someone might “possibly†pose a threat.

How many LEOs are shot during traffic stops? One way to stop LEOs being hurt or killed during traffic stops would be to send in SWAT, you never know… I digress.

When was the last time you had a pleasant conversation with a LEO about something other than law enforcement? Do any of the non-LEOs on the board know a LEO socially? How many LEOs routinely socialize with non-LEOs or their families? The last time I had a beer with a cop was in ’97 and the cop was retired. I don’t know any where I currently live. A LEO lives just up the street and I’ve never had even a short “hi†conversation with him. He had a party once and everybody who was invited arrived in identical white Crown Vics; hmmm, there’s a pattern emerging. Is there a sense of “Us vs. Them†here?

The last time I had a conversation with a LEO was when I was detained for resembling (actually, my truck did the resembling) someone who allegedly shot up a rest stop men’s room. Five cruisers (CHP and county) responded, I was detained and searched, my truck was also searched … there had been no shooting in the men’s room. No damage at all was evident. Still, while they had me detained at 10 PM in the middle of 35F nowhere, they kept me outside a nice warm truck and ran me through the computer just to make sure. This was a real pleasant (and eye opening) experience for a good guy. Now I’m really digressing.

There is a chasm between LE and citizens in this country. People don’t like to speak with LEOs because they associate cops with “not goodâ€, nothing good ever came out of just talking to a cop. Likewise, other than cops, I imagine that most LEOs spend most of their day conversing with bad guys (writing tickets for speeders, arresting drunks); I’m sure those are fairly pleasant conversations, but it leads them to think of us non-LEOs as “Themâ€. So why are we shocked when they shoot a homeowner in his living room with a TV remote in his hand? “I thought it was a gun.†Well that makes it okay.

My personal feeling is that law enforcement needs the trust of the community to function well. “Us vs. Them†is a big negative and I believe it causes many of the headlines about bad shootings. Cops are good guys and then there’s “Themâ€. There is no trust between them and us. When a cop engages in a search of someone’s home it’s because they did something wrong; they’re a collar waiting to happen and a bad guy. Why else would a LEO be searching a house. Why else would a LEO be serving a warrant, why else… Then there’s SWAT: Take a LEO who normally doesn’t socialize with “civiliansâ€, dress him like a ninja, arm him with an M-16, stun grenades and lots of paramilitary training and have him serve a search warrant.

SWAT has a function, but it is a stick that should rarely be used. Bureaucrats need to know that they are responsible for the improper application of force. But what do I know? I’m just a retired Naval officer who doesn’t like to socialize with cops because nothing good ever came out of it.
 
Boats,

Well written and I could not agree with you more.

The police have absolutely no business being paramilitary terrorists. They scare me far more than any threat they allegedly protect me from.
 
Well, Edward, it's wishful thinking for sure, if all one does is sit on one's butt and accept TPTB's doings without any complaint.
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Art, you got a real no nonsense way of cutting through to the chase and your statement did give me pause. Problem is, I do vote and have wrote a few letters, yet dont see where it made one whit of difference.

Writing E-mails & letters only ever gets me typical form type responses which address none of the issues, and thank me for my time. I do not have faith in the voting system anymore, yet continue to vote just in case. I probably could/should do more but what else can I do without having a bankroll, to make em sit up and listen?

I agree (with my perception of your implication) that my morning cynicism/sarcasm does not help. I wish I could do more.
 
riverdog, I guess I'm lucky. I've known a fair number of LEOs through the years, on a casual-social basis.

I've known our resident deputy since he was a pup. I've known the two previous resident deputies as well. Our present constable retired early as an LEO from back near Dallas; I sorta "housebroke" him to an understanding of our local folks when he first came to our area. I've been at least casually friendly with two previous sheriffs, and have briefly visited with our present sheriff.

I'm no local rabble-rouser on any issue, but I'm known for speaking my mind and "callin' 'em as I sees 'em".

Edward, I've always thought that making a point of some sort of involvement in the lower levels of electoral politics (city and county level) did more than worrying about national stuff. But, as far as letters and suchlike, the thing there is to get your friends and acquaintances also joining in the "paper flood" of snail-mail to Congressfolks. It ain't easy, though...

:), Art
 
Art,
I'd guess that smaller departments have less of the Them and Us mentality than larger organizations. There's probably a lot more community in Terlingua, Texas than in San Diego. We've just got more people.

I've known a number of folks who would either become cops or were retired from LE. I just never knew any while they were on the job.
 
[Disclaimer: El Tejon is a former LEO--the desk sitting kind, but LEO none the same]

SWAT is scary looking by design. The more scary the less they may have to shoot.

However, it's all about software. The more they train, the less they shoot. The problem is, and may always be, that the brass gives them the hardware, but no training. You can count the HK54s and report to the city council about them being in inventory, however just go ahead and justify training costs!:D But, they're cops, they're already trained.:rolleyes:

The SWAT guys who understand their role are wonderful. They understand that they are not "going to war."

What I object to the SWATification of the patrol officer who may not understand that he is not "going to war." For example, the outrageous conduct of the Virginny mall ninjas wearing masks and pointing carbines at motorists during the alleged mad dog snipers in East Coast Eloi land. That was an outrage over which I still shudder.

The purpose of the police is to gather evidence and report to the prosecutor. Nothing more, nothing less. They are not around to "protect" anyone. They are not to make war on anyone.

However, I believe this problem is tied to the Welfare State. People sit on the couch and demand the government "do something." Until we address this, we will have problems with police, intentionally or unintentionally, threatening our liberty.
 
A month ago I heard a news report that Virginia state troopers will be issued AR-15s to carry in the trunk.

I don't like that. God bless the 90% of folks who would never think of using it, but it's the other ?% that are wannabe-soldiers with a war mentality that scare me.
 
However, I believe this problem is tied to the Welfare State. People sit on the couch and demand the government "do something." Until we address this, we will have problems with police, intentionally or unintentionally, threatening our liberty.
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This rings true as a bell.:( But how you make people get off their butt to be responsible? I was reading that the average IQ in the US is 106. Again,:(

You can't make friends with a swat team though. Too bad. It'd be cool to invite em' over for a barbeque so they knew who you was and be friends!:cool:

I think I fell asleep at the board.
 
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