LeonCarr
Member
I don't want one.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Why do YOU want a high-end/custom 1911?
- Thread starter HDCamel
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Smokin Gator
Member
I had a Springfield Loaded, used it, no problems. Eventually I decided I wanted a Wilson CQB. I had made some extra money and at age 55 knew I'm not getting any younger. I decided to treat myself while I can still get out and run around shooting matches. It get's used, no safe queen. I love the gun. I'd consider getting one more, but would never have a safe full of them. I use it for IDPA and USPSA and shoot revolvers in ICORE. Mark
Winkman822
Member
I have and want another high end 1911 for the attention to detail that goes into the build. My Wilson and Les Baer are the best assembled pistols I've handled or owned. They're better than my Springfield TRP, better than ANY Kimber I've owned and better than the old Colt that I used to own.
Sure my TRP could do the job of being a carry gun just as commendably as my Baer or my Wilson CQB Compact, but the Baer and Wilson just seem more solid: no rattles when you shake the gun, no parts stand proud of other parts; no MIM small parts, accuracy beyond what I can capitalize on, and just excellent in hand feel. THey just scream quality when I look at or pick them up and do so even more when I fire them.
Sure my TRP could do the job of being a carry gun just as commendably as my Baer or my Wilson CQB Compact, but the Baer and Wilson just seem more solid: no rattles when you shake the gun, no parts stand proud of other parts; no MIM small parts, accuracy beyond what I can capitalize on, and just excellent in hand feel. THey just scream quality when I look at or pick them up and do so even more when I fire them.
Mikey Idaho
Member
Don't either, would rather have a nice tuned Hi Power or P210 
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farscott
Member
I own -- and, more importantly, shoot -- several custom high-end 1911 pattern pistols. Each was built to perform a certain task; as such, they are customized for that task.
As an example, I had John Harrison build me a gun from a Caspian frame and slide that is meant for concealed carry. That gun has special tweaks for that, including fixed sights that have the same notch and post dimensions as BoMar BMCS sights but are zeroed at twenty-five yards, not fifty yards, for 230-grain standard pressure JHP. Why? Because the narrow notch and post work best (read, pick up the fastest) with my aging eyes and the 25-yard zero makes sense for a carry gun. The gun has also seen a grip reduction and round butt with custom grip panels, so that the gun better fits my small fingers. The thumb safety is an ambi, so that the gun can be shot equally well with either hand. It is hard chromed to protect the carbon steel frame and slide from the rigors of carry in the humid south. At the full-custom level, the buyer/owner needs to understand why features are being specified.
The next gun is one I bought second-hand because the feature set matched what I wanted for PPC. It is a David Sams gun built on a Caspian frame and slide. The caliber is 9x19, the sights are buried BoMars, and the gun is fit and finished for maximum accuracy. The barrel is a KKM Precision barrel that is made to David Sams's specifications. The serrations on the rear and top of the slide combined with the matte bluing are to reduce glare during outdoor matches. It shoots nine rounds of 9x19 124-grain handloads into less than 1.5" at fifty yards from the Ransom rest. There are two sets of grips, including the ones shown and the VZs it wears for matches. The gun has a tungsten FLGR, not the GI guide and plug of the carry gun, and a magwell to add weight, making it easier to hold for the distant targets. The gun inspires confidence as I know it will do its part if I do mine.
The guns are similar, but tweaked to their intended usage. Each performs at a very high level but are meant for different applications.
As an example, I had John Harrison build me a gun from a Caspian frame and slide that is meant for concealed carry. That gun has special tweaks for that, including fixed sights that have the same notch and post dimensions as BoMar BMCS sights but are zeroed at twenty-five yards, not fifty yards, for 230-grain standard pressure JHP. Why? Because the narrow notch and post work best (read, pick up the fastest) with my aging eyes and the 25-yard zero makes sense for a carry gun. The gun has also seen a grip reduction and round butt with custom grip panels, so that the gun better fits my small fingers. The thumb safety is an ambi, so that the gun can be shot equally well with either hand. It is hard chromed to protect the carbon steel frame and slide from the rigors of carry in the humid south. At the full-custom level, the buyer/owner needs to understand why features are being specified.
The next gun is one I bought second-hand because the feature set matched what I wanted for PPC. It is a David Sams gun built on a Caspian frame and slide. The caliber is 9x19, the sights are buried BoMars, and the gun is fit and finished for maximum accuracy. The barrel is a KKM Precision barrel that is made to David Sams's specifications. The serrations on the rear and top of the slide combined with the matte bluing are to reduce glare during outdoor matches. It shoots nine rounds of 9x19 124-grain handloads into less than 1.5" at fifty yards from the Ransom rest. There are two sets of grips, including the ones shown and the VZs it wears for matches. The gun has a tungsten FLGR, not the GI guide and plug of the carry gun, and a magwell to add weight, making it easier to hold for the distant targets. The gun inspires confidence as I know it will do its part if I do mine.
The guns are similar, but tweaked to their intended usage. Each performs at a very high level but are meant for different applications.
I personally want high end 1911s because I like to have precise shooting instruments fitted like a Swiss watch. They ate a pleasure to operate and shoot damn well too. On the downside, they make lesser guns look and feel like throwaways.
Like anything else, precision costs money. A Freedom Arms revolver is more precise than a Ruger. A Korth is more precise than a Smith & Wesson. A Springer from their Custom Shop is more precise than a Colt. A S&W Performance Center gun is more precise than their regular production stuff.
While an argument can be made that most people can't tell the difference, it is totally irrelevant. These are guns for people who appreciate that level of precision and are willing to pay for it. Tailoring to the masses gives us stuff made from castings and MIM and zinc alloy crap. Production guns today are garbage. Today's custom guns barely equal those made in the 1930's on a regular production line. Back then every gunsmith was a craftsman. Today a factory gunsmith is an assembler.
Like anything else, precision costs money. A Freedom Arms revolver is more precise than a Ruger. A Korth is more precise than a Smith & Wesson. A Springer from their Custom Shop is more precise than a Colt. A S&W Performance Center gun is more precise than their regular production stuff.
While an argument can be made that most people can't tell the difference, it is totally irrelevant. These are guns for people who appreciate that level of precision and are willing to pay for it. Tailoring to the masses gives us stuff made from castings and MIM and zinc alloy crap. Production guns today are garbage. Today's custom guns barely equal those made in the 1930's on a regular production line. Back then every gunsmith was a craftsman. Today a factory gunsmith is an assembler.
buckhorn_cortez
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- Joined
- Jul 8, 2010
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- 532
I don't agree with that at all. Would you post the same thing on an audiophile forum and claim "most people on this audiophile forum can't hear the difference..." etc.? I don't think you'd do that because people on audiophile forums are there specifically because they CAN appreciate the differences in how and why the same type of equipment can sound different.
I think most people who shoot regularly and handle a number of different guns and have any evaluation ability at all can also figure the differences between guns.
I used to manage an audio store, and we used to put together different display systems to find out what they would sound like. Changing out amps, turn tables, cartridges, speakers, etc. to find out what combinations sounded best.
What I found was that if someone was really interested in audio, that with a few demonstrations of different systems, and a little guidance as to what to evaluate, that they could start understanding the nuances of the equipment, and would ask fairly intelligent questions about what they could put together for their budget.
The same holds true for guns. I can certainly tell the difference between shooting my Wilson Supergrade Elite Professional, the Les Baer Heavyweight Monolith, Wilson CQB, Dan Wesson Valor, and Dan Wesson VBOB.
I'm also certain that I could take anyone familiar with guns out and not tell them the differences, but ask them to evaluate specific performance parameters between each gun, and they'd be able to figure out for themselves how the guns were different.
I don't "want a high end 1911" - I own high-end 1911's. Because, much like audio equipment, even though they're the same type of device - the way they perform is totally different. I appreciate what each does differently, and I use each of them for what they do best.
As for showing off with them - I have no one to "show off" for and I bought them to use. The last time I had the Supergrade out in a gun store was to compare the Supergrade and EMP to a SIG model to look at the size difference.
One of the customers saw me comparing the SIG to my guns, and came over and asked to see the EMP. After handing me back the EMP, he then pointed at the Supergrade and asked, "Is that a Kimber?" I just smiled at him and said, "No, it's not a Kimber" - and left it at that. So, if I were you, I wouldn't assume that just pulling out a high dollar gun equals showing off as you might get someone who thinks it's a Kimber, RIA, etc. and is not the least bit impressed with what you have.
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orionengnr
Member
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- Jan 3, 2005
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- 5,712
You mean...why do I want another one...
Yes. I don't know what audiophile forums you've been to, but they're at least 50% hipsters who just parrot stuff that they read in some magazine.
Second, unlike a forum devoted to audiophilia, this is NOT a forum dedicated to competition shooters, performance junkies, etc. There are plenty of people here and elsewhere who just want a high-end 1911 because it's "the best" and couldn't cite a difference beyond slide-to-frame fit or trigger break (if that) or something they heard/read somewhere else. Just like there are people who buy Skullcandys or Beats because "higher price = better".
Showing off takes many forms. Hipster types especially like to do the whole "X is pretty obscure, you've probably never heard of it, but it's so much better than Y because..." thing. It's not necessarily about actually impressing the people you show, but often the satisfaction of simply "KNOWING" that you're better informed than them.
I'm technically an anthropologist (though I don't currently work in the field). People, their actions, and the motivations behind them are what I study. It's not a criticism, just general interest.
StrikeFire83
Member
I don't!!!
Neither do I.
The only 1911 I want is a Coonan Arms .357 magnum. I already have 2 revolvers in .357 and a whole host of other calibers, enough so that I don't want to diversify any more for a while. I also think that the reliability of rimmed cartridges is underrated and the Coonan is a good sample that it works.
Oh yeah, this happens ALL the time at the headphone forum I used to frequent. In fact there was a ban on talking about "blind testing" of audio cables - where a person listens to an amp with two different cables (high and low end) without knowing which is which and tries to tell the difference.
The problem was/is that some audiophiles have no problem spending thousands of dollars on cables. Yes - audio cables, and power cords, and walll outlets. Then there are other folks that think they are crazy (me among them) and they often challenge whether there is a discernable difference in sound between a $2000 cable and a piece of tin foil. These discussions usually go something like this:
"I have a $1500 power cord for my amp. It sounds amazing."
"Really, that's nuts - what about the 50 miles of crappy Edison cable carrying the electricity to your home?...you know, the stuff that cost 5 cents per foot?"
"Well, I clean that up with my $500 wall outlets. Besides, I don't care what you say my 'golden ears' can definitely hear a difference. You must be tone-deaf."
And down it goes.
Now, I'm not sayiing that a $5000 1911 is no better than a $1000 Colt. All I'm saying is that for ME, the Colt works and that I cannot appreciate the extras that a semi-cutom pistol offers, beyond pride of ownership and aesthetics. Would I own one? Sure. Am I a good enough shot to take advantage of the incremental improvement in fit and accuracy - I doubt it, so I'll save my money and keep shooting my Colt.
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Pistol
I own several custom and semi-custom 1911's. I've owned several other customs through the years from makers considered the "Best" ie Yost, Cyl. Slide, Clark, etc. They all functioned exceptionally well - but not one was a "better" pistol than the Les Baer Monolith Heavy, a lowly semi-custom. Some of the allure of a full custom is pleasure in owning something that is really "quality" inside and out. Also there's a un-measurable aspect of confidence that the piece will function and be accurate (not always the case though). Boils down to pride of ownership to a small degree.
For example I owned a full custom Springfield Professional (FBI Hostage rescue Team Pistol) that some consider the best 1911 ever. I've also owned the Springfield TRP - a production 1911. Both were great, reliable, very accurate. The TRP was MUCH more value for your $$$. As is the Baer Mono Hvy - which is every bit as good as any full Custom I've owned and a ton less $$$.
Few plastic pistols are considered "custom" yet SOME out perform the highest customs out there. I have the FN Tactical .45 (and the H&K Tactical). The FN runs about $1,000 and it will perform with anything on earth. Put the Trijicon RMR the slide is machined to accept and it is probably the best pistol on earth for practical, real world use. At least it blows away every pistol I've owned in pure "run" and most measures you can come up with. Simply amazing in every respect. Caveat is it is BIG like the H&K. But if you literally want to shoot a squirrel in the head, off hand, at 20 yards with a .45 the FN will do it. I mean LITERALLY do it. All my keeper pistols are probably as accurate but the Trijicon makes the accuracy usable to most anyone. Man, we old men ramble too much so I'll stop.
I own several custom and semi-custom 1911's. I've owned several other customs through the years from makers considered the "Best" ie Yost, Cyl. Slide, Clark, etc. They all functioned exceptionally well - but not one was a "better" pistol than the Les Baer Monolith Heavy, a lowly semi-custom. Some of the allure of a full custom is pleasure in owning something that is really "quality" inside and out. Also there's a un-measurable aspect of confidence that the piece will function and be accurate (not always the case though). Boils down to pride of ownership to a small degree.
For example I owned a full custom Springfield Professional (FBI Hostage rescue Team Pistol) that some consider the best 1911 ever. I've also owned the Springfield TRP - a production 1911. Both were great, reliable, very accurate. The TRP was MUCH more value for your $$$. As is the Baer Mono Hvy - which is every bit as good as any full Custom I've owned and a ton less $$$.
Few plastic pistols are considered "custom" yet SOME out perform the highest customs out there. I have the FN Tactical .45 (and the H&K Tactical). The FN runs about $1,000 and it will perform with anything on earth. Put the Trijicon RMR the slide is machined to accept and it is probably the best pistol on earth for practical, real world use. At least it blows away every pistol I've owned in pure "run" and most measures you can come up with. Simply amazing in every respect. Caveat is it is BIG like the H&K. But if you literally want to shoot a squirrel in the head, off hand, at 20 yards with a .45 the FN will do it. I mean LITERALLY do it. All my keeper pistols are probably as accurate but the Trijicon makes the accuracy usable to most anyone. Man, we old men ramble too much so I'll stop.
JohnBT
Member
If you shot more your hearing wouldn't be good enough to benefit from a bunch of high-dollar headphones.
Why do I want a custom 1911? Why do people want a high-end watch that tells time just like the cheap ones? Because they do and that's what they like.
There's no recorded music that sounds like live music, is there?
John
Why do I want a custom 1911? Why do people want a high-end watch that tells time just like the cheap ones? Because they do and that's what they like.
There's no recorded music that sounds like live music, is there?
John
NO! cause live music is full of errors, cracked voices, missed notes. I generally enjoy studio versions better, as the artist is fresh, voice crisp. The studio musicians who are VERY good, still get 2-3 chances to get it perfect.
Just cause we are giving each other a hard time.. I'm just saying.. just to be pissy.
OK I do want a high end or custom 1911 because. I have handled and shot a few high end pistols and while I may be tone deaf, and not that great a shot, just handling them I can feel and see where the gunsmith artisans have had 2-3 go rounds on making each joint fit, glide and appear seamless.
Risky buisness
Member
I want one simply because it would be quality, hand fit, reliable, made in the USA and that certian mark of distinction that still says that quality need only be purchased once, well, maby twice if you buy 2 of them.
Tis why I never forget my hearing protection. EVER.
BTW, cheap noise-cancelling shooter's muffs over a pair of clip-on headphones have about as good of a noise-cancelling effect as expensive, purpose-built noise-cancelling headphones but without the loss of sound quality at that price point.
The more you know.
JohnBT
Member
"NO! cause live music is full of errors, cracked voices, missed notes."
That's why live music is better. It's real. Their soul to my ears. No mulligans or do-overs.
John
That's why live music is better. It's real. Their soul to my ears. No mulligans or do-overs.
John
I find shooting to be fun. For me, it is actually therapy. Few things make me feel better than putting some lead on steel (or paper) after a bad day, or rough week. When I shoot well, I feel even better. While there is a plateau in price and performace, it is a lot higher than people think. While a $1900 SA TRP is nothing to scoff at, a $3600 Knighthawk is still better.
Q: What is not to love about one ragged hole at 25yds as fast as you can press the trigger?
A: The price!
Q: What is not to love about one ragged hole at 25yds as fast as you can press the trigger?
A: The price!
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