Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why does the Midwest have such bad CCW laws?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by MatthewVanitas, Jul 9, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,463
    Location:
    Burlington, Vermont and Montreal, Québec
    Greetings. Looking at the overall map of may-issue and non-issue states, I'm somewhat puzzled by the may-issue Iowa laws and non-issue Nebraska, Kansas, and Wisconsin laws.

    Why are these states so restrictive? Particularly since, in many cases, they have neighbors with perfectly reasonable gun laws and a comparable culture.

    Who's behind these laws? Is it the urban "Great Northern Liberal" of Garrison Keillor fame? Is it puritan farmers trying to keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous North Omaha minorities? Is it "the 2nd Amendment is about hunting" whitetail/pheasant hunters?

    My cowboy-worshipping friend, a Marine officer hailing from Kansas, is most perplexed by his state's failings. So I thought I'd appeal to the knowledge of the midwesterners on the board: what's the story?

    Thanks for any ponderings, -MV
     
  2. buy guns

    buy guns Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Messages:
    992
    Location:
    Florida
    i think it is because midwestern states feel safer than the rest of the country. if someone was to attack us they would hit either the west or east coast. if they were to invade on foot they would come from canada or mexico so the border states would get hit the worst.

    but then you would think that cali, ny, and dc would have the most lax gun laws.


    eh who knows, sometimes this country is one hell of a mystery to me.
     
  3. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2003
    Messages:
    3,368
    Speaking for Iowa, we're stuck with a (D) Governor who will veto any CCW law that passes his desk....

    Prior to his current position he served on a city council where a disgruntled citizen walked into a council meeting, pulled a gun and shot the mayor dead.
     
  4. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,669
    Location:
    MN
    Well, Minnesota, Missouri and Ohio had the same BS restrictive laws just a couple years ago.

    And Wisconsin missed getting a MN-style shall-issue law by one traitorous vote last session. The smart money says it'll pass next session.

    Give us some time -- Rome wasn't armed in a day! :)
     
  5. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,085
    Location:
    Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
    What bad CCW laws?:D

    These laws were instituted to the "gang" violence of the '20s and '30s during Prohibition. Considering the time and the area where these men came from, they were serious dudes used to fighting and violence. Why the state legislatures believed the NRA that disarming everyone would help the good people, I cannot answer.
     
  6. fissionproducts

    fissionproducts Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Lincoln Nebraska USA
    In Nebraska we have a state Senator named Ernie Chambers who filibusters like a madman everytime CCW comes up for a vote. I guess he is worried about his North Omaha constituents being on the receiving end of a righteous shooting.
     
  7. natedog

    natedog Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,634
    Location:
    Bakersfield, California
    Most Mid-Western states are conservative, but many have one large city (read: liberal center....Chicago, for example) that dictates legislation for the rest of the state.

    California is the same way...without San Fransisco, LA, San Diego, and Sacramento, we'd probably have very loose gun laws. Take a look at the Bush-Gore election map that shows the results based on county. You'll see what I mean.
     
  8. GSB

    GSB Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Messages:
    800
    The Midwest is an interesting place. You need to look at it historically. One is inclined to think of the Midwest as salt-of-the-earth conservative because it's rural, but that misses a big part of the complexity. First, remember that the population of the midwest is concentrated in cities that experienced a tremendous influx of minority labor from the South during the early part of the Twentieth Century. Also realize that even the agricultural population had its flirtations with the far left during roughly the same period (the history of farms and farm labor in this country during that period is very interesting), and some of that residue probably still lingers.

    There are other factors as well but I'd need some research time to do them justice.
     
  9. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,755
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Having been born and raised in Kansas (only recently escaping to the rarefied air of the Rocky Mountains and freedom) I have some thoughts on this.


    1. The "conservatives" in the mid west tend to be pro-authoritarian types of conservatives (not the pro-liberty conservatives you hear on talk radio and read their columns on the internet). Often all they have in common with conservatives outside of the midwest is that they tend to be Christian, and they tend to be Pro-Life.

    2. Many people in rural areas are just as dependent on the tit of mama government as any ghetto rat in the inner city ... many farmers are completely incompetent as both farmers and businessmen and are kept afloat by government largess.

    3. Midwestern Democrats, Liberals, "antis" and 'progressives" generally have grown up in the area and know how to sound much more conservative then they are ... thus they get elected (another thing they do is join the Republican party ... I have often referred to Kansas as The Home of the Free range RINO).

    4. Many of the older generations in the Mid West where devotees of FDR and believe he saved them from the depression and the dust bowl. Anyone sounding like FDR will get their vote (and frankly, Lenin and Stalin sound a lot like FDR)
     
  10. IAJack

    IAJack Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2003
    Messages:
    242
    Location:
    Iowa
    One word answer..

    METHODISTS!

    Actually kidding on that one, but there is a bit of truth to it. We are in the bible belt here and that helped shape alot of turn the other cheeck and pacifism in lawmaking, lawshaping and attitude over the years.

    We really need help here in Iowa on CCW laws as they are about as unfair as you can get. We are to ofter forgotten as is since we are "may issue" It is assumed that this is a fair system when not.
     
  11. Monkeyleg

    Monkeyleg Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    5,058
    Location:
    Decatur, AL
    Natedog, GSB and Zundfolge pretty much nailed it.

    Here in Wisconsin, state politics are dominated by two or three cities: Milwaukee, Madison and Racine. Milwaukee is the sixth poorest city in the country, which means lots of liberal-leaning welfare recipients, lots of ultra-liberal "community activist" groups (who are paid through government grants), and the bureaucracy necessary to sustain all this. Milwaukee alone accounts for 20% of the state's population, and thus 20% of its elected officials.

    One out of every seven hunters in WI is an NRA member, versus one out of every fifteen to twenty in other states. Yet a rabidly anti-gun candidate was elected governor in 2002 by a margin of just a few points.

    We have some of the most conservative elected officials in the nation along with some of the most liberal. One of our state senators is none other than Russ Feingold. Conversely, Senator McCarthy was from Wisconsin.

    The shortest answer to the question might just be this: midwestern states are schizophrenic.
     
  12. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,755
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Something else to keep in mind, but at a time when there was no gun control in New York City there was extremely strict gun control in Dodge City Kansas. You came into town in the 1880s you had to check your firearms with the Sheriff ... this is long before the Sullivan Act of 1911 in NYC.
     
  13. simmonsguns

    simmonsguns Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    316
    Location:
    overlandpark,kansas
    all of the above on the why is it like that,plus it does not help when in bolth ks and mo that you have to deal with inner city gang problems,IE topeka and st. louis and kansas city mo.bolth have a strong anti gun anti gang history.and with the current governors,there is no way any ccw will pass,mo. has done the unthinkable and routed the veto,now the problem is that it is an unfunded program,they will be thying to sort this thing out for the next 5 years.as for kansas,our gov. would sell her soul to control the world,one problem though,she can't get her party to agree on much except gun control,part of it goes back to the crime system here,pendragast as ruler of all and paying off city officals to get stuff done.org. crime is still here,its smaller that it was but the new sticking point is more than half of the house and senate are anti gun.the other half must vote the way the governor wants them to inorder to get the funding that they need to keep there schools and roads open.there stuck and the only way to change it takes a long time,you make inroads in one area and than a nother closes up,there is not enough funding,nra or other to get a good running start when election time gets close.untill then its concealed carry illegal for allot of us.
     
  14. El Guero

    El Guero Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2003
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    IC, IA
    Whoever mentioned the midwestern liberal centers, that is exactly what Nebraska's problem is. Like fissionproducts mentioned, we have one senator who filibusters about anything and the rest of them are lefty enough to allow it. Lincoln is our liberal center and, lucky us it's the capitol too.

    Nebraska had another problem in that a star college soccer player was killed at her home during and argument when some jack!#$ pulled out his illegaly concealed and possessed .32 and shot at some guy, only to have the bullet ricochet off his skull and hit Jenna Cooper, the soccer player, in the neck.

    We have plenty of people who get the willies from guns here too. The local paper actually ran an article about a high school in the area that has a trap range on campus, and some lady wrote to the editor how she had to go see this for herself, and actually feared for her life when parents brought shotguns into the school building.:barf:
     
  15. Shanghai McCoy

    Shanghai McCoy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,594
    Location:
    The,sort of, Free state
    IAJack is not as far off base as you might think.The Methodist church is pretty anti 2nd Amendment and just about every town in KS has one of their churches.I had to move here from Oklahoma and the "Yankees" are different.Topeka,Wichita,Lawrence and KCK are where most of the people live and those are VERY liberal towns.Plus the state rifle association is no where near as active for CCW as the ORA has been.I miss Oklahoma.....
     
  16. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    The Democratic (sic) party has bought millions of votes throughout the middle west with agricultural subsidies.
     
  17. jacketch

    jacketch Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Messages:
    442
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    In these midwestern states, the original settlers were farmers or cattle people. Later the third group came, the sheeple herders, sometimes also known as liberal politicos or media types. The sheeple herders were gentle types who cared a great deal for their flocks of sheeple. Unfortunately, the independent cattle and farm types didn't care for the sheeple as they poluted their pristine country with lots of sheeple dung and stripped the land bare causing everyone else to abandon the area for more productive grazing and planting land.

    The sheeple herders were soon whining that the cattle and farm people had destroyed the land and were leaving and going off to areas that excluded the poor sheeple herders and their flocks. Wolves roamed the land, attacking the sheeple and causing much panic. They demanded that the government force the cattle and farm people to allow the sheeple into their areas too and to pay the sheeple for the damage that was really caused by sheeple overgrazing or by wolf predation. The cattle and farm people said a few not too nice things about that and the relationship was forever damaged.

    Because of this the sheeple herders have made a point of keeping any weapons out of the hands of the fiercely independent cattle and farm folks. They are protecting the sheeple from the cattle and farm people and allowing the government to protect all the residents equally from the misunderstood but still deadly wolf.
     
  18. another okie

    another okie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Germanic and Scandanavian heritage of trust in government and fear that excessive individualism will lead to chaos.
     
  19. Shanghai McCoy

    Shanghai McCoy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,594
    Location:
    The,sort of, Free state
    HMMM,must be that pesky 1/4 of Portagee heritage that makes me distrust the guvarmint then...:scrutiny:
     
  20. rbrowning

    rbrowning Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    MI
    Late 1800's

    A lot of the anti- CCW goes back to the late 19th century when folks like the James' and the Daltons made their living with a pistol. That is a lot to live down. And just where did most of this occur? MO to MN, right up the middle of the midwest. This image was further entrenched with the gangsters and bootleggers just a few years later.
     
  21. SodiumBenzoate

    SodiumBenzoate Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2004
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Bucks Co., PA
    I assume that it's just that, while more people may support CCW than otherwise, those who oppose it are much more vocal, and there isn't a large enough vocal pro-gun side to counter it, as many people who own firearms may be of the "I just want mah huntin riffle!" varity.

    Using Pennsylvania as an example, we have one liberal large city, Philadelphia, and one conservative medium-large city, Pittsburgh. The thing is, the pro-gun legislators have a rather firm hold - even though much of the state (Philadelphia, and the more liberal parts of its suburbs, which comprises around 2-2.5 million people) may be anti.

    I suspect that while most midwest states are probably similar as far as the people's opinions go, the pro-gun legislators did not manage to get a powerful majority.
     
  22. dave3006

    dave3006 member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    898
    The Methodist church is a big part of the problem. It is an evil apostate church that has completely turned it's back on the truth. It does not believe in biblical truth and supports homosexuality. Of course, it will be wrong on the RKBA.

    Once you get rid of the real God, you have to get yourself another. The liberals (and Methodists) picked the "state" as their new god.
     
  23. davec

    davec Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    302
    Location:
    Bayonne, NJ
    The 1996 Freedom to Farm Act had its guts ripped out by a Republican Congress and the bill that killed it in May 2002 has George W. Bush's name on it.

    The Democrats don't have the market corned on buying votes via agriculture handouts.



    as to the topic at hand, original anti-gun measures in the mid-west were a result of the wild west lawlessness and people like Wyatt Earp making everybody turn in their guns at the city limits. That tradition resurfaced during the 30's and is with us till this day. At least, thats my answer :)
     
  24. HSMITH

    HSMITH Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,933
    One BIG factor seems to have been missed so far: UNION MONEY!!!!

    Unions are very prevalent in the midwest, and politically they are very powerful. They contribute greatly to the campaigns of the liberals that protect them, and also campaign strongly with the membership to keep them voting democrat. They convince the membership of the evils of conservatism, tell them their way of life isn't possible with conservative leadership and so on. THAT is a huge part of why we have miserable liberal democrats running the midwest.

    Most rank and file union members are pro-2A and hunters etc, but they vote 180 degrees out from pro-2A, 180 degrees from a strong responsible economy and on and on. 100 years of BS propaganda and high wages are hard for a lot of people to see through to know what is really going on in the world.

    Manufacturing is running from the midwest like roaches when the light is flipped on, the cost of doing business here is just too high. The economics of the midwestern cities are changing with the large top-middle class (union wages) fading fast as the jobs move out, and with these changes we will see a little more sanity in politics.

    For the record, I am not anti-union. I am anti-sillyness, and that covers a lot of what goes in in union and non-union shops alike. I've worked in open and union shops daily for over 10 years and as an outsider not caught up in the internal politics of the workplace it is surprisingly easy to see good and bad in both systems.

    I VERY MUCH begrudge the unions for not allowing the membership to determine where their dues money is spent in politics, everyone has a voice and value until it comes to politics and that burns me up. That is my only serious heartburn with unions.
     
  25. Bullet

    Bullet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    1,388
    Location:
    Kansas
    I live in Kansas and I don't know the answer to the thread. All I can tell you is the criminals here already carry guns just the law abiding people can't.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page