I remember as far back as before and during the 90s, 00s, and even just about 12 or so years ago it seemed shotguns were a widely accepted choice for HD use. Lately, I see a lot of “hate” on shotguns, usually people who say “AR15” or PCC are the better choices will be the ones to talk the most trash. I’m not here to start an argument, nor am I claiming the AR15 to be bad or anything like that. I’m just curious why all the sudden there’s been sort of a shift in opinion? I’m all for personal preference, and could care less if someone tells me what I use for HD isn’t adequate for them, but I find it ridiculous to take it to the extremes many take it on the internet. In my opinion, it seems many of these people have complaints that generally sound like they have no real experience with shotguns. What do you think?
Why does there seem to be shotgun hate?
- Thread starter JackaL618
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troy fairweather
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Could be because to many people read and believe everything they see on the internet.
Mn Fats
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Shotgun hate? I think a shotgun is a very viable HD weapon. Especially in a situation where you may experience over penetration, like the suburbs or apartments where an AR could easily go through your wall and hit the guy next to you.
Never heard of this "hate" towards shotguns. Maybe because of recoil? Other than that, shotguns are an excellent HD choice.
Never heard of this "hate" towards shotguns. Maybe because of recoil? Other than that, shotguns are an excellent HD choice.
I think its a combination of simply wanting to be part of the "in crowd", partly focused familiarity, and partly perception.
People are herd animals, if everyones going baaaaaaat way well so am I, and ill be loudest about it.
Guys focused on training with a particular system, or systems, will often feel that they are simply the best there is.....guys that dedicated are also usually pretty vocal..
Shotguns dont need to be aimed, kill with a glancing blow, and are best choice for people who will never shoot....there for anyone who favors shotguns must suck at life......
You will obviously have folks who ARNT part of those stereo types, but still feel shotguns are a poor choice. THOSE guys ill listen to, as they usually have experience as to why they feel the way they do.
NOW personally I dont use shotguns as my home defense weapons.
People are herd animals, if everyones going baaaaaaat way well so am I, and ill be loudest about it.
Guys focused on training with a particular system, or systems, will often feel that they are simply the best there is.....guys that dedicated are also usually pretty vocal..
Shotguns dont need to be aimed, kill with a glancing blow, and are best choice for people who will never shoot....there for anyone who favors shotguns must suck at life......
You will obviously have folks who ARNT part of those stereo types, but still feel shotguns are a poor choice. THOSE guys ill listen to, as they usually have experience as to why they feel the way they do.
NOW personally I dont use shotguns as my home defense weapons.
What I meant by hate was I see a lot of complaints people make about recoil, accuracy, capacity, and the list goes on. I guess hate might not be the best word for it, maybe dislike? My point is, these complaints seem to be more user specific than firearm specific. I guess you’re right about the herd mentality, LoonWulf. I just wish people would realize not everyone has to share the same experiences or come to the same conclusions as them with a particular type of gun.
748
member
The AR mofia fan boys.
Of course they are going to hate something that can put a dozen 0.36'' holes in a body from 30 feet away with one shot and is obviously way better for that situation.
Of course they are going to hate something that can put a dozen 0.36'' holes in a body from 30 feet away with one shot and is obviously way better for that situation.
Telekinesis
Member
Those are reasonable observations when comparing something like an AR against a shotgun. Capacity: 30 vs 4-8? Recoil: .233 vs Buckshot or Slugs? The rifle has significant advantages.
Accuracy wise, at short range I’m not convinced it makes much difference because the shot hasn’t had enough distance to really spread. Medium range (say, out to 100 yards) I think a lot of people don’t have a good understanding of what a shotgun can really do, mostly because so few people shoot shotguns at those ranges. Especially if you start looking at slugs you can really reach out. At ranges further than 100 yards, I think we can all agree that rifles start to pull ahead.
I was a very serious competitive trap shooter for a number of years. I am very confident in my ability to use a shotgun, but I do think the capacity issue is legitimate. In a fight it is very easy to run through ammo very quickly, and the shotgun is difficult to reload in a hurry. Most trainers recommend port loading single rounds until you can get a break and start adding to the magazine. The rifle has a significant advantage not only in that it starts with more ammo, but a very quick reload immediately gets you 30 more rounds. Not so with a shotgun.
One to two adversaries, the capacity is less of a detriment. But more than that and that limited capacity starts to come into play. Say what you want about the chances, but I think given recent events the “facing down a mob on your front lawn” isn’t really the realm of tinfoil hattery anymore.
Rifles also get the advantage on optics, lights, slings and such, but shotguns are starting to catch up.
Like I mentioned earlier, I have a lot of time on shotguns and enjoy them. I feel like they’re a good choice for defense, but right now the weapon next to me is a rifle, not a shotgun.
Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
No hate here......
lemaymiami
Member
I think the answer is as simple as the fact that we're not a rural people any more - mostly. Fewer and fewer of us grow up in places that the first firearm you ever held would be either a 22 or a shotgun.... I saw it clearly in police training where some took to a riot gun from the first moment - and other were afraid of it, didn't like the noise or the kick - and everything else that goes with handling a weapon that needs some attention to shoot properly. Those that didn't like a shotgun would work through until they could qualify (when we finally required that years ago) - but the shotgun was never their first choice in an armed confrontation - even if it was a fight ender with a single shot...
Then along came the changes in personnel "officers of shorter stature" (females) in police work and that was that.. I left police work in 1995 and the writing was on the wall even then as the change-over from shotguns to "police carbines" was already in progress. Add to that our military long ago moved away from shotguns except in specialty roles and the average veteran - might have had combat experience - but never with a shotgun...
With the rise of the armed citizen movement coupled with the great proliferation of AR type carbines I'm not surprised at all that there's a bunch of folks around that don't have much good to say about shotguns in a defensive role. That's just fine by me - but if I'm ever in a close quarters party again (here's hoping that never occurs...) I know exactly what I'll have in hand if possible... and it won't be some tricked out tactical shotgun - just a simple, deadly effective, old riot gun and not a magnum anything either...
Then along came the changes in personnel "officers of shorter stature" (females) in police work and that was that.. I left police work in 1995 and the writing was on the wall even then as the change-over from shotguns to "police carbines" was already in progress. Add to that our military long ago moved away from shotguns except in specialty roles and the average veteran - might have had combat experience - but never with a shotgun...
With the rise of the armed citizen movement coupled with the great proliferation of AR type carbines I'm not surprised at all that there's a bunch of folks around that don't have much good to say about shotguns in a defensive role. That's just fine by me - but if I'm ever in a close quarters party again (here's hoping that never occurs...) I know exactly what I'll have in hand if possible... and it won't be some tricked out tactical shotgun - just a simple, deadly effective, old riot gun and not a magnum anything either...
Ernie Bass
member
Shotguns are my Friend. Home defense has taken on a whole new meaning. The word "Fortress" is a whole new meaning. Evil is escalating at a rapid and dangerous pace. Be prepared. Any home invasions, assaults usually involve one or two combatants. But now be prepared for many more. Make the shotgun your friend.
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There's a world of difference between "hate" and a shift.
The defensive benefits of each has been laid out over and over giving light carbines a bit of a boost over shotguns (what do nation states and cities equip troops/police primarily with currently and what has been relegated to a support role more and more) and with the assault on "assault weapons" you'd expect that attention to get more attention on light carbines.
Ernie Bass
member
There are a whole lot of new Defensive shotguns coming onto the market many for home defense. Some very interesting one's at that.
https://www.range365.com/the-best-home-defense-shotguns/
It has been mentioned more than once already. There seems to be this thinking that more capacity and less recoil is the best. It seems people defending their home believe they are going to get into a fire fight for some reason. After all it is on the internet so it must be true. Many fail to read statistics in regards to actual home defense occurrences. If your gonna spray 30 rounds of 5.56 around your house a war has started...
FFGColorado
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But, but, but, if it's in the internet, it must be true, yes?
Put 3 people in a room and ask about home or personal defense, get 5 or 6 opinions..I think a SG works well for a lot of things but I'm a BIG fan of shooting what I own, a lot. PLUS my guns are task specific, even if that 'task' is fun at the range. My SG was just no fun to shoot plus a SG, unless you shoot slugs(Big $ plus ouch), they are pretty much one and done vs a paper target. Yes, I have shot some hand thrown clay, but just not much fun since the guy tossing, isn't shooting. Didn't want to invest in range fees or equipment..so I just sold it..for $100 more than I paid, BTW...
BUT, I think a lot of ignorance surrounds many gun 'types', and a shotgun is no exception.
Good luck with that..see "opinions" above.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
I am not aware of any hate of shotguns for home defense, nor do I care if there is any.
I prefer an AR but don't feel the least bit disadvantaged with a shotgun at the side of the bed.
I prefer an AR but don't feel the least bit disadvantaged with a shotgun at the side of the bed.
I am very empirical. I have taken 'tactical' shotgun classes from decent instructors, Givens and Rehn. I've taken carbine classes also. I have shot both in IDPA matches which give you some practice in moving around, reloading, clearing, etc. in using both guns. I've done a 360 deg. shoot house with a double barrel and multiple 'opponents'.
I can shoot either pretty well. My take away is that both work, a carbine works better for me for the standard reasons, capacity, recoil, ease of loading and clearing. Stopping power - stepping away from the cliches either work.
The naive shotgun cliches, racking to scare, not having to aim - we know that's BS.
So if you choose, get out and try them in a somewhat realistic simulated environment for HD. Unless you do this, the discussion is not that useful.
I can shoot either pretty well. My take away is that both work, a carbine works better for me for the standard reasons, capacity, recoil, ease of loading and clearing. Stopping power - stepping away from the cliches either work.
The naive shotgun cliches, racking to scare, not having to aim - we know that's BS.
So if you choose, get out and try them in a somewhat realistic simulated environment for HD. Unless you do this, the discussion is not that useful.
George P
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My youngest has my AR; my Mossberg 500 stands in corner ready to go; my new Ruger 9mmPCC is also ready to go. I DO prefer to use shotguns for more friendly things like sporting clays, quail hunting, etc., and those price tags reflect that.......
Ernie Bass
member
What is BS is keeping a round in the chamber. No need to do so. I do not keep a round in the chamber on a shotgun. Drop safety is a concern, and I do not like shotgun springs compressed, and I keep mine "Cruiser Ready". I check for empty and dry fire the weapon and load the gun. I do not care if they hear the noise. They have made enough noise when my alarm system sounds and if it takes a split second to rack the slide. Let them hear me, no problem. I do like to shoot them, know how to do the drills and know my home very well. I do believe you have to be diligent with training and familiarity
Virginian
Member
The hate emanates from the "my way is the right way" attitude. The only .22 rifles I own are rimfires and I believe the only thing I own that is the least tactical are two original M14 ammo pouches, that I have never carried ammo in. I do not own any 9 mm s or .380s either. I don't have any shotguns with plastic stocks, adjustable combs, adjustable ribs, adjustable buttplates, release triggers, or oversized operating handles.
I really don't care what anyone else does.
I really don't care what anyone else does.
Buzznrose
Member
I think “hate” is a very overused and misconstrued term.
Just because I choose to swap to an AR over a HD shotgun as my “bump in the night” gun doesn’t mean I now “hate” my shotgun.
No different then revolver guys switching to 1911’s, or 1911 folks wisely switching to Glocks (I Jest!!! Relax y’all...LOL!!)...
No need to “hate” any inanimate object...but preferences are certainly valid.
Just because I choose to swap to an AR over a HD shotgun as my “bump in the night” gun doesn’t mean I now “hate” my shotgun.
No different then revolver guys switching to 1911’s, or 1911 folks wisely switching to Glocks (I Jest!!! Relax y’all...LOL!!)...
No need to “hate” any inanimate object...but preferences are certainly valid.
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I happen to use a few guns for HD. I keep my 410 Shockwave and 410 Mossberg 500 loaded with either 000 buckshot or Winchester PDX1 rounds along with at least one AR in223 and my 9mm AR pistol ready to go. And of course I have a couple of pistols ready for use too. I'm going to grab what is the closest and work my way to the others if needed. And yes I practice with all of them.
Ed Ames
Member
Eh, it’s not really herd mentality so much as inertia.
Let’s compared the platforms:
Recoil: 25+ fpe vs 6ish fpe
Accuracy: basically a wash really, but call it 3” to 20 yards best case vs 3” to 100 yards worst case
Capacity: 2–5 rounds typical, vs 20- 30rd typical
Then you get into the over penetration and effectiveness morass where if you are happy with birdshot level effectiveness the shotgun has less of an over penetration issue, but if you want buckshot or slug levels of effectiveness the over penetration risk skews towards the shotgun being worse for over penetration.
Yet, despite all of that, the shotgun is the default HD choice for a great many people. Ask about a home defense long gun and 9 out of 10 responses will involve a 12ga shotgun. Bring up rifles and there will be a lot of, “oh no it’ll shoot through several houses follow up shots will be too slow you’ll get pilloried by a jury if you ever have to use it,” type talk thrown at you by people whose daddy told them shotguns were the only thing you really need for HD.
As a result, people who have made the comparison for themselves and - against the advice of the masses - chosen the rifle, are used to needing to defend their choice in an argumentative way. That habit of an aggressive defense of their choice carries online where the rifle side is somewhat better represented, so it could seem like people hate shotguns when they are really just tired of being told by most people that they should be using a shotgun.
amd6547
Member
I have an AR and an M1 carbine, either one of which I’d be very comfortable using for home defense. But when the pandemic madness started, and I upped my threat level, the Mossberg 500 was loaded and kept handy...where it still is today.
I'm 68 and spent a lifetime hunting and playing with shotguns. I'm totally familiar with the performance, handling characteristics and recoil of shotguns. I also spent time behind an M-16. Still don't and probably won't own an AR, they just don't appeal to me. There are shotguns ready to go in several spots at my place. So don't bother telling me I'm wrong either, please and thank you.
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