Why don't gun makers make ...?

[leadcounsel]

I have nearly enough Economics credits for a minor in Economics.... I understand supply and demand, intimately... however, that doesn't answer the following: Why don't gun makers make...

1. More lever action .357 rifles. Seems EVERYONE wants 'em, but they are scarce as hens teeth. If it's a matter of resources, then stop making .30-30s (they are saturated in the market) and rededicate resources to the .357. Even just 10% more would be a great profit margin. I think I've actually only 'held' one or two in my life!!! Consider that versus the dozens of .30-30s I've held... and the few I've owned.

2. Modern gun made in 7.62x25 Tok. It's hot. It's cheap ammo. It's a fantastic round. Let's do it!!! I see that the old Tok is finally being modernized, but that's not what I'm talking about! Come on Gaston, make a few less G17s and make some G-Toks!

3. Someone buy up the SKS patent and start churning them out with both fixed and AK47 mag compatibility. Why re-invent the wheel. Modernize it. Bullpup it (ala SGWorks stock). Punch these suckers out. What's the holdup.

What are your thoughts?

 

[InkEd]

Not "much" demand for Tokarevs but Zastava (IIRC) is making new ones and they are offering them in 9mm too.

Already have a .357 lever gun and haven't seen a huge shortage of them.

SKS is obsolete. Has been since the AK came out. Why tool up to make an SKS when you could tool up and make AKs for more money.

 

[savanahsdad]

I turned down more than a few 1894's in 357mag when I was looking for my 1894 44mag , if there is a shortage on 357mag lever guns ,,,, I'm not seeing it

Now an American made SKS , I'd buy a few of those ! Never been a fan of the stamped out AK's, I almost got a AK clone in 410 a few years back but just could not get past the ugly of it

 

[tubeshooter]

1. I think the .357 lever thing is hard to get your arms around from a business standpoint, in some ways. For one, the resurgence of demand for it can partly be attributed to CAS/SASS and partly to an influx of relative newcomers who tend to want to match them with a handgun. Combine this with the internet, and sometimes it sounds like the whole world wants one. What you don't hear are the voices of those who feel the .357 is literally half the gun for twice the money compared to the .30-30... they just simply don't tend to be as vocal about their stance. That being said, .357 levers can be hard to find and I think Rossi in particular has really tried to step up to fill the demand in the past 10 years or so. So my short answer is "Rossi".

2. I know almost nothing about this caliber, so I can't really answer this.

3. I remember reading that if you tried to manufacture the SKS brand-new today, it would probably cost quite a bit more than even today's milsurp prices. And that is to say nothing of the old days where you hear about crates full of them at sub-$100 price points. So I don't really blame manufacturers for not trying to basically beat this old milsurp at it's own (unwinable) game. At least not while they are still around for even semi-reasonable prices. Plus you are also competing with the Mini 30 and the CZ 527. I am not even sure who you would "buy" the SKS patent from anyway, or how that would work. Finally, if most people want an AK they just buy an AK; same general milsurp economic argument applies.

 

[bannockburn]

I think the short answer to the different gun/caliber requests would be that they're just not economically feasible to a manufacturer. If the market would support it someone would make it; other than that it would probably be too small of a niche product to make a profit on.

 

[MedWheeler]

Probably part of the reason for a dwindling supply of .357 Magnum carbines is the dwindling demand for .357 Magnum handguns. Much of the interest in that caliber that boomed in the seventies and eighties has waned in favor of autoloader rounds, and Magnum performance can even be had in some of them.

Not saying I agree that the.357 Magnum is no longer a desirable round; I'm still itching for a chance to fire off some from the two Magnum revolvers I own. I'd also love to have a Rossi Ranch Hand, though I admit I'd have no practical use for it. However, my local gun shop (more like a showroom, actually, as it's pretty big), always has at least one.

 

[jmr40]

It is easy to get on the internet and find 30 guys who are all wanting a particular gun made. It seems like there is a larger demand than there really is. Most folks who frequent internet gun forums are not your typical gun owner. What might seem like a slam dunk for lots of sales if a poll were taken here would mean nothing to the general public.

Go into a bar on Satuday night and conduct this poll. "Should alcohol sales be legal?"

Ask the same question on Sunday morning in a Southern Baptist church and your poll results will be quite different.

 

[Sam1911]

Regarding the SKS, I really like them. I got out my Russian last night just to handle it and am impressed again at what a pleasant, capable gun it is. If it had been put into troops' hands 10 years earlier it would have much the same cachet that our M1 Garand enjoys to this day.

But. It isn't any better at its role than several more modern weapons and redesigning it enough to be really more desirable than them would probably be about as much trouble as starting from scratch.

An SKS is a great rifle to have around. When they're inexpensive they may be the most cost effective way to meet a need. But to build them new would make them not cost effective.

 

[Old Fuff]

Modern gun made in 7.62x25 Tok. It's hot. It's cheap ammo.

The "cheap ammo" is dependent on military surplus imports - which the folks in the White House can stop anytime they want. That, and the cartridge's overall length make it hard to fit and function using most popular pistol platforms.

So long as the ammunition makers can't fill the demand for .22 LR, 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, and .38 Special/.357 Magnum - as well as others that are truly popular you're not going to see even the slightest interest in the 7.62x25 Russian.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

I wish they would bring back the lever action in 41 mag. Last one I came across was going for $1300

 

[USAF_Vet]

Between the two gun stores I frequent, I think combined they have half a dozen .357 lever guns of various make and model. The demand isn't there as much as you may think. Would I want one? Sure. Can I get one? Of course. Is that what sells? Not in this age of tacticool special operator call of duty wannabes. Black plastic, aluminum and rails are what's popular. Not cold.steel and polished wood.

I know a lot of gun people. None of them care about the Tokarev round.

A new production American made SKS does interest me. Produced in various calibers and barrel lengths. But its greatest competition would be the American made AR. The SKS is a good rifle, but it has its drawbacks. The sights are a hold over from the 19th century. The dust cover doesn't allow for mounting good iron sights, or decent optics. Also, price point. A modern SKS would cost as much as an AR, or more. I wouldn't expect a wood stock or a fixed magazine. I'd expect a tactical plastic stock an detachable magazines (not the duckbill).

The demand isn't there on a high enough level. Tooling isn't cheap. To even break even, thousands would need to be sold on per order. And that level of sales would need to be long term sustainable. It won't be. The demand for these ideas is so minute on the grand scale, no company is will into take the risk.

 

[Robert]

I just want to know why the heck we can't get a semi auto Lewis Gun? Now that is something I'd buy.

 

[Jim Watson]

1. I think the worst part of the .357 Magnum lever action market is the hiatus in Marlin production as they tried to straighten things out after the Remington/Freedom takeover and move.

2. Nobody is going to adapt a "modern" gun to 7.62x25 so you can shoot cheap Sov Bloc surplus ammunition, which is in dwindling supply anyhow.

3. Nobody is going to tool up for an SKS which got popular when gun and ammo were cheaper than .22 LR. If there were signs of demand, the Sov Bloc arsenals would just resume manufacture and blow anybody else out of the water.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I'd like to see S&W start making third Gens again

 

[Awsomepossum]

"I wish they would bring back the lever action in 41 mag. Last one I came across was going for $1300 ", I found a marlin 1886( I believe that was the model) for 650$, but he was far away. Was going to go down to Houston and someone beat me to it.

 

[bannockburn]

"I just want to know why the heck we can't get a semi-auto Lewis Gun? Now that is something I'd buy."-Robert

I would most definitely second that notion!

 

[Landgroove]

How bout a Mini-14 in 7mm TCU?

Now THERE is a no-other-change-but-bore variety.

 

[EVIL]

I agree with the OP about .357 lever-guns --- I have been trying to score a .357 Mag lever-action carbine for the past few years on the private sale market in OH. (Especially a Marlin, but I'd settle for a Rossi.) They just aren't there to be had. I've never seen one on armslist - while there is a plethora of .357 magnum revolvers & .30-30s for sale. I think the folks that buy them, don't frequently offer them up for resale. On the converse, 30-30s are ubiquitous & reasonably priced at near half the price of what a .357 mag carbine goes for locally. I wish all (or at least a significant fraction) of the ranch hands were being produced as standard rifles instead. I mean we are talking about a few inches of steel barrel length and wood for the stock ....

I'm not sure about the availability of new .357 carbines in gun shops, I eventually will just give in & just try to special order one from a LGS.

 

[LeonCarr]

.357 lever gun, not really interested in one but they are nice. Big fun to shoot with .38 wadcutters if it will feed them.

What I would like, and nobody will ever make them at an affordable price , would be a M1 Carbine or similar based rifle in 9 x 23 Winchester or the old 9mm Winchester Magnum. Fast handling, .357 Magnum Ballistics, compatible with box magazines, easy to handload.

I have heard of folks in the past converting M1 Carbine to various cartridges including the .45 Winchester Magnum, but one of them in a 9mm based cartridge with .357 type ballistics would be sweet.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[MAKster]

With the new laws in California and New York, I could see a modernized SKS or fixed mag Mini 14 becoming popular in these states. Since semis with detachable mags are prohibited now, rifles with top loading designs can work with fixed mags.

 

[chicharrones]

The SKS is a good rifle, but it has its drawbacks. The sights are a hold over from the 19th century. The dust cover doesn't allow for mounting good iron sights, or decent optics. Also, price point. A modern SKS would cost as much as an AR, or more. I wouldn't expect a wood stock or a fixed magazine. I'd expect a tactical plastic stock an detachable magazines (not the duckbill).

Plus the trigger design and the trigger safety are, um, kinda lacking.

I think the VEPR is pretty much what a new commercial made SKS could be. They can even be had with a bullet button installed for California.

 

[wally]

made in 7.62x25 Tok. It's hot. It's cheap ammo.

Haven't actually tried to buy any lately, have you? The days of cheap corrosive surplus 7.62x25 have been over for about 2 years now. Unless more imports can be found and allowed to come in, don't bet on it with the current President and his appointments at State and Commerce.

Current production non-corrosive 7.62x25 is priced about the same as .45ACP so it loses to 9mm & .40S&W on ammo cost at the moment.

 

[chicharrones]

Speaking of .357 Magnum lever guns, I've wanted a Marlin the last couple years. Outside of sightings on internet auction sites, I've yet to see one in person this decade.

Rossis are definitely more widely seen.

 

[doc2rn]

I am kinda surprised, I have had one sitting behind my closet door for about 2 yrs and havent shot it other than to zero the scope. For anyone looking I got mine from the Bears Den down by Mansfield, Ohio. They are a Marlin distributor and always keep 5-6 in stock.

 

[Justin]

1. More lever action .357 rifles. Seems EVERYONE wants 'em, but they are scarce as hens teeth. If it's a matter of resources, then stop making .30-30s (they are saturated in the market) and rededicate resources to the .357. Even just 10% more would be a great profit margin. I think I've actually only 'held' one or two in my life!!! Consider that versus the dozens of .30-30s I've held... and the few I've owned.

There are already multiple companies making lever action .357 rifles in many different configurations. As it stands, lever action rifles and other "western" style guns are becoming more of a niche item.

Of the lever action .357s on the market, what configuration isn't being made that you think should be available?

2. Modern gun made in 7.62x25 Tok. It's hot. It's cheap ammo. It's a fantastic round. Let's do it!!! I see that the old Tok is finally being modernized, but that's not what I'm talking about! Come on Gaston, make a few less G17s and make some G-Toks!

I agree with you that 7.62x25mm is a great little pistol cartridge, and I'd be thrilled to see a mainstream manufacturer sell guns chambered for the cartridge.

That said, it's a niche item. While well known among serious gun aficionados, the average gun owner has never even heard of the cartridge. Availability is limited to a couple of reputable makers or imported ammo from former eastern-bloc nations, and you can't just walk into Wal-Mart and pick up a box of 7.62x25mm.

Additionally, there's an inbuilt cultural bias against small diameter cartridges in America. It took decades for the 9mm to go mainstream, and even now there are plenty of people who are happy to sacrifice capacity and cost at the alter of .45 ACP. I suspect that 7.62x25mm would face the same sort of biases.

That said, there have been gunsmiths that have built modern guns chambered for the cartridge, including a number of AR pistol carbines, which would, I suspect, be a great deal of fun.

3. Someone buy up the SKS patent and start churning them out with both fixed and AK47 mag compatibility. Why re-invent the wheel. Modernize it. Bullpup it (ala SGWorks stock). Punch these suckers out. What's the holdup.

Have you ever looked at the machining of an SKS? Only a nationstate run by economically challenged idiots would churn something like that out by the hundreds of millions, only to have them sold on the open market for around $200*. I'd be utterly shocked if any current gun maker could make an SKS to the same level of quality and cost-point as the economically ignorant commies.

As to modernizing the design, there are outfits that have made AK-mag compatible guns, as well as bullpup kits, so there is a niche in the market that is currently being filled, though the utility of such modifications is, quite frankly, dubious. After all, if you want a gun that takes AK magazines, why not simply buy an AK?

*Seriously. Compare the build quality of an SKS to, say, a Mini 14. They're reasonably comparable, and the Mini retails for more than twice the cost of an SKS.