Regarding crappy CZ clones.
That's quite an ironic statement considering the Swiss AT-84S was made from Tanfoglio parts
True, but the original AT-84 was a Swiss-made, licensed copy, and a true clone of the CZ-75. I've never seen an AT-84 in a shop, or for sale -- anywhere!
I've also never found an AT-84s in a pawnshop, but have owned several. I still have a custom AT-84s, and it's one of my favorites. The reason they're so rare is that they were never imported in great numbers. By the time ITM got to building the AT-84s, Tanfoglio was into the business in a big way here in the U.S., too, and it was BIG vs. small.
I agree with those who defend the Tanfoglio versions of the CZ design, and the ones sold under the Witness brand: it's not the guns that are a problem, it's EAA and their notorious customer service. And, surprisingly, about the ONLY problem Tanfoglio guns have been the ones one made to EAA specs for EAA-only sale -- and then mostly .45 and 10mm versions at that, built on the larger frame (with the slide being the problem). The older, smaller-frame Tanfoglio-based guns were trouble free.
Today, there are some Turks and even Norinco which clone the CZ version of the design, but most remain either made by Tanfoglio or copies of Tanfoglio's design. Heck, even CZ chose Tanfoglio's magazine.
I'd love to examine a Norinco version of the CZ-75, but that's hard, here in the US. Our Canadian neighbors can do it, though.
Thus far, every Turkish-made gun I've encountered is either a Tanfoglio-based gun, or has features of both the CZ and Tanfoglio. I haven't run into a true clone yet -- but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. (I think the Tanfoglio design might be more popular because Tanfoglio seems to have made changes that make production a bit less costly.) The Tanfoglio firing pin block is a better design, they did away with the mag brake, and changed the "main spring" design, too...
I have owned several (used, of course) Sphinx CZ-pattern guns, and they seemed more Tanfoglio than CZ in their details. But they were beautifully made with superb fit and finish -- and a cut above both CZ and Tanfoglio guns.
As you note, almost NONE of these guns, after the early AT-84, were CLONES; they were variants and guns built using the basic CZ pattern and Tanfoglio specs. And at Tanfoglio, little things started to change almost immediately, from pin diameters, to things like the extractor mechanism or later, the firing pin block design. Almost NOTHING (except magazines and recoil springs) from a Tanfoglio built in the last 20 years works in a CZ. Don't try a Tanfoglio-pattern slide on a CZ, or vice versa. Or a conversion kit. That seems generally true with the Turkish guns, too, but as noted, there may be exceptions. (I haven't been able to see many of the Turkish-made guns, or attempt a close inspection.)
And as for the comments earlier, about the
CZ being designed as a combat handgun... Maybe, maybe not.
The CZ-75 was, according to people familiar with the gun's history, designed to be sold in the West, for the commercial market -- and possibly as a service pistol (police, etc.), but was NEVER intended for military use in the Communist Bloc. The CZ-75 was never adopted by any Communist Bloc nation in that role, except for some very specialized units (like Soviet special operations units). (Note: CZ says the CZ-75 was designed to shoot the Sellier & Bellot 9mm 124 gr. round. That round was NOT used in any combat weapons in the Communist world. The Communist Bloc used 7.65x25 and 9x18, and introducing a new round would have been a logistical nightmare and somewhat impractical. The Czech National Police bought the PCR model, a compact version -- had some big problems with it that were quickly resolved -- and CZs then languished for quite a while.
The problem was the West was embargoing most things coming out of the Communist Countries, and the Communist nations couldn't or didn't get export permission or licensing protection for their products. With the fall of the Communist Bloc, things improved, and they're now being used by some military units -- although Tanfoglio worked out deals with Turkey and Israel to sell their designs first.)
Re: BHPs.
I'd love to run across an early FEG copy of the BHP for sale; I'd snap it up. I think I'd prefer that version to the early FM-made versions, which are licensed copies.
I have a nice old T-series BHP, which has an after-market barrel, but even with the after-market barrel, it's a great gun. (I replaced the damaged factory barrel with an EFK Fire Dragon barrel; it dropped in and is arguably as good as the factory barrel, at least in my gun, and cost less than half as much. FN wants $400+ for a replacement barrel for the BHP.)
For CZ owners: the BHP recoil springs from Wolff fit CZs better than the Wolff "CZ" recoil springs, which are really made to Tanfoglio specs, for the larger Tanfoglio guide rod. And over the past couple of years, Wolff has greatly widened the range of recoil spring weights available for the BHP (CZ), apparently because CZs run better with lower-weight springs than the original BHP offerings.
