Why i HATE conceiled carry and what can i do to fix it?

[Sam1911]

Cool. It will be interesting to see if the AG will answer that email and if they will give a legal opinion on the subject.

And, of course, the AG's legal opinion simply offers whether he or she thinks they would instruct their people to prosecute or not prosecute. Which, absent clear statute and case-law precedent, might be the opposite of what the courts would eventually interpret the law to be.

Still, whether if the head prosecutor of the state feels they'd be likely to pursue charges is good to know.

 

[yugorpk]

Although I have absolutely mastered the awkwardly-constructed phrase more often than not, your question as worded makes my head spin.

Wouldn't it read better if it asked, "IF a 19 yr old resident of TN obtains a CCW permit from Maine, can this resident then use the Maine permit to carry concealed *in TN* under color of repricoprocity?"

There you go, and that's as near-awkward as your phrasing!

I live with a Russian. I find my sentences getting more and more awkward all the time .

 

[NormH3]

I'm interested as to what they will say, but I still can't see how you can argue with this statement. I know it's a matter of semantics, but I wouldn't take the chance of loosing my right to ever own a firearm.

"If a person with a handgun permit from another state decides to become a resident of Tennessee, the person must obtain a Tennessee handgun permit within six (6) months of establishing residency in Tennessee. - See more at: http://www.tn.gov/safety/article/handgunmain#sthash.x0bvHCpC.dpuf "

 

[entropy]

OK, OP, look at it from the cops point of view; He pulls over a kid for speeding, or a taillight or whatever; here's there first can of worms: Do you have to declare you are carrying? If so, you, you do, and hand him your TN ID and ME carry permit. He asks how long have you lived in TN? He already knows the answer, he's looking to see if you try to lie your way out. If you answer truthfully, he will arrest you for carrying illegally. That's your best case scenario.
Say you don't have to declare, or worse, do have to but don't. He will most likely find that 1911 on you, particularly with your unrealistic beliefs about proper carry attire, and it will go downhill for you very, very fast.
So now you're at your arraignment; By now the the cops figured out your gun is a home build; by itself, maybe not illegal, but that will cast aspersions as to your character and motives for carrying, as well as subjected you to quite a bit of interrogation about said pistol and it's origins. The DA will motion for trial, and your PD will put up a weak motion for dismissal. You will languish in jail with some unsavory characters until your trial.
We're at the trial now; if you're lucky, you might have found some young, hungry lawyer fresh out of law school willing to work pro bono to make a name on your case law case. That's what it will be at that point. (Unless you have a PD, then it's the max fine and if you're lucky, only time served.) So it will drag on through the court system for years, during which time you will most assuredly not be able to carry legally in TN. If you lose the case, (at which ever level you end up being able to take it to) you will probably NEVER be able to legally carry in TN, and most other states will not allow it either, with such a conviction.
If you are still reading this, cobra, my advice to you is consider other methods of self-defense until you turn 21. Read TN law on self-defense, and what is legal for you. and choose a method and train up on it. Read up on situational awareness, also. This will be your best defense at any age.
You are young and impetuous; it goes with being 19. We all here were there once, and somehow, we all survived it. You will too, and with much less strife and grief in your life if you listen to the wisdom of (most) of the posters here.

 

[Spats McGee]

So, the legality of concealed carry on an out of state permit, by a resident of TN, in TN, is very important to determine.

MANY states expressly prohibit the practice of one of their residents carrying on another state's non-res permit within that state.

HOWEVER, so far no one has shown that TN is actually one of those states that does so. This may be ABSOLUTELY lawful. . . . .

Then let's take a look, shall we?

We have to start with the statute that makes carrying a weapon illegal in the first place:

(a)(1) A person commits an offense who carries, with the intent to go armed, a firearm or a club.

(2)(A) The first violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class C misdemeanor, and, in addition to possible imprisonment as provided by law, may be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500).
(B) A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class B misdemeanor.
(C) A violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor if the person's carrying of a handgun occurred at a place open to the public where one (1) or more persons were present.​

(b)(1) A person commits an offense who unlawfully possesses a firearm, as defined in § 39-11-106, and:

(A) Has been convicted of a felony involving the use or attempted use of force, violence, or a deadly weapon; or
(B) Has been convicted of a felony drug offense.​

(2) An offense under subdivision (b)(1)(A) is a Class C felony.
(3) An offense under subdivision (b)(1)(B) is a Class D felony.​

(c)(1) A person commits an offense who possesses a handgun and has been convicted of a felony.

(2) An offense under subdivision (c)(1) is a Class E felony.​

(d)(1) A person commits an offense who possesses a deadly weapon other than a firearm with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from a dangerous offense as defined in § 39-17-1324.

(2) A person commits an offense who possesses any deadly weapon with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from any offense not defined as a dangerous offense by § 39-17-1324.
(3)

(A) Except as provided in subdivision (d)(3)(B), a violation of this subsection (d) is a Class E felony.
(B) A violation of this subsection (d) is a Class E felony with a maximum fine of six thousand dollars ($6,000), if the deadly weapon is a switchblade knife.​

(e)(1) It is an exception to the application of subsection (a) that a person is carrying or possessing a firearm or firearm ammunition in a motor vehicle if the person:

(A) Is not prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm by 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) or purchasing a firearm by § 39-17-1316; and
(B) Is in lawful possession of the motor vehicle.​

(2) As used in this subsection (e):

(A) “Motor vehicle” has the same meaning as defined in § 55-1-103;
(B) “Motor vehicle” does not include any motor vehicle that is:

(i) Owned or leased by a governmental or private entity that has adopted a written policy prohibiting firearms or ammunition not required for employment within such a motor vehicle; and
(ii) Provided by such entity to an employee for use during the course of employment.​

(f)(1) A person commits an offense who possesses a firearm, as defined in § 39-11-106(a), and:

(A) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921, and is still subject to the disabilities of such a conviction;
(B) Is, at the time of the possession, subject to an order of protection that fully complies with 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8); or
(C) Is prohibited from possessing a firearm under any other state or federal law.​

(2) If the person is licensed as a federal firearms dealer or a responsible party under a federal firearms license, the determination of whether such an individual possesses firearms that constitute the business inventory under the federal license shall be determined based upon the applicable federal statutes or the rules, regulations and official letters, rulings and publications of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives.
(3) For purposes of this section, a person does not possess a firearm, including, but not limited to, firearms registered under the National Firearms Act, compiled in 26 U.S.C. § 5801 et seq., if the firearm is in a safe or similar container that is securely locked and to which the respondent does not have the combination, keys or other means of normal access.
(4) A violation of subdivision (f)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor and each violation constitutes a separate offense.
(5) If a violation of subdivision (f)(1) also constitutes a violation of § 36-3-625(h) or § 39-13-113(h), the respondent may be charged and convicted under any or all such sections.​

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1307 (West)

So, with all of that, it looks like "carrying a firearm with the intent to go armed" is a crime in TN, subject to certain exceptions, such as carrying the firearm in a car in circumstances in which: (1) the carrier is not a prohibited person; and (2) the carrier is in lawful possession of the car. There is no language in this section that deals with concealed carry, so we'll have to turn elsewhere.

However, it should be noted that the crime is to carry a "firearm or club with the intent to 'go armed.'" So what does "go armed" mean?

It will be noted in reading the above section of the Code that the carrying of dangerous weapons in any manner whatever with the intent to go armed is the gravamen to the offense.

Hill v. State, 201 Tenn. 299, 301, 298 S.W.2d 799, 799 (1957)

So what does "intent to go armed" mean? I'm not a TN lawyer. Never been licensed there. However, looking at the case law, it's something other than simply being in possession of a firearm.

The defendant also challenges the sufficiency of the evidence in support of his conviction for possession of a weapon with the intent to go armed. Specifically, he contends that the State failed to prove that he had the specific intent to go armed. Again, we disagree.Tennessee Code Annotated Section 39-17-1307, which prohibits the unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon, states in pertinent part that “[a] person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm,....” Tenn.Code Ann. § 39-17-1307(a)(1) (1997). The intent of a defendant may be inferred from both direct and circumstantial evidence. . . . Thus, a defendant's intent of going armed may be proven by the circumstances surrounding his carrying of the weapon. . . . In our view, the State introduced sufficient evidence in this case from which a rational trier of fact could infer the defendant's intent to go armed. Helloms testified that the defendant pulled the gun from behind his seat, pointed it directly at him, and threatened to shoot. Ray testified that she saw the gun beside the defendant on his truck seat, and that after she had talked with him and calmed him down, he put it into the glove box. When officers arrived, they found the gun to be fully loaded. From these facts and circumstances, the jury was entitled to conclude that the defendant was not just transporting the gun from his ex-wife's home to his, as he claimed, but instead was carrying it with the specific intent of going armed. This issue is without merit.

State v. Sikes, No. W200002960CCAR3CD, 2001 WL 1042172, at *5-6 (Tenn. Crim. App. Sept. 6, 2001)

Internal citations omitted.
In another case:

The proof shows that the Defendant's loaded gun was found in Mr. Powell's glove box in front of the Defendant's seat. Mr. Powell testified that the Defendant was a licensed armed security guard and “always traveled with his gun.” The Defendant admitted in his brief that the State proved the Defendant owned the gun. From these facts and circumstances, the jury could have concluded that the Defendant possessed the gun and intended to “go armed” because the evidence showed that he always traveled with his gun, that the gun was loaded, and that the gun was in the glove box immediately in front of and within reach of the Defendant. The jury also found the Defendant guilty of possession with the intent to sell marijuana. Although the Defendant argues he carried the gun for his job as an armed security guard and the evidence shows he had a valid handgun permit, “the plain language of subsection (a) does not evidence a legislative intent to differentiate between lawful or unlawful possession of a firearm.” See State v. Samuel Alan Ireson, No. E2010–01648–CCA–R3–CD, slip op. at 7 (Tenn.Crim.App. June 10, 2011). The jury could have reasonably concluded that the Defendant possessed the gun with the intent to go armed during the commission of a dangerous felony.

State v. Thompson, No. W2012-00642-CCA-R3CD, 2013 WL 3776985, at *10 (Tenn. Crim. App. July 15, 2013)

Based upon all of this, I'll say that the best starting point is this: carrying a loaded firearm on one's person is a crime in TN.

We then turn to possible exceptions:

(a) The citizens of this state have a right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the general assembly has the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.
(b) Except as provided in subsection (r), any resident of Tennessee who is a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident, as defined by § 55-50-102, who has reached twenty-one (21) years of age, may apply to the department of safety for a handgun carry permit. If the applicant is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm in this state pursuant to § 39-17-1316 or § 39-17-1307(b), 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), or any other state or federal law, and the applicant otherwise meets all of the requirements of this section, the department shall issue a permit to the applicant. . . .

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West)

This statute has been amended in ways not relevant to this discussion. See 2016 Tennessee Laws Pub. Ch. 736 (H.B. 2575).

So what does a TN permit do?

. . . . (n)(1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2) and subsection (x), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer. . . . .

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West)

. . . . (r)(1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.
(2) For a person to lawfully carry a handgun in this state based upon a permit or license issued in another state, the person must be in possession of the permit or license at all times the person carries a handgun in this state. . . .

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West)

. . . .(r)(1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.
(2) For a person to lawfully carry a handgun in this state based upon a permit or license issued in another state, the person must be in possession of the permit or license at all times the person carries a handgun in this state.
(3)(A) The commissioner of safety shall enter into written reciprocity agreements with other states . . . . If another state imposes conditions on Tennessee permit holders in a reciprocity agreement, the conditions shall also become a part of the agreement and apply to the other state's permit holders when they carry a handgun in this state.

(B) If a person with a handgun permit from another state decides to become a resident of Tennessee, the person must obtain a Tennessee handgun permit within six (6) months of establishing residency in Tennessee. The permit may be issued based on the person having a permit from another state provided the other state has substantially similar permit eligibility requirements as this state. However, if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit.
(C)(i) If a person who is a resident of and handgun permit holder in another state is employed in this state on a regular basis and desires to carry a handgun in this state, the person shall have six (6) months from the last day of the sixth month of regular employment in this state to obtain a Tennessee handgun carry permit. The permit may be issued based on the person having a permit from another state provided the other state has substantially similar permit eligibility requirements as this state. However, if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit.

(ii) This subdivision (r)(3)(C) shall not apply if the state of residence of the person employed in Tennessee has entered into a handgun permit reciprocity agreement with this state pursuant to this subsection (r).
(iii) As used in this subdivision (r)(3)(C), “employed in this state on a regular basis” means a person has been gainfully employed in this state for at least thirty (30) hours a week for six (6) consecutive months not counting any absence from employment caused by the employee's use of sick leave, annual leave, administrative leave or compensatory time.​

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West)

Emphasis supplied.

TN law doesn't come right out and say "if you're a TN resident, you can't carry on a ME license." However, given the clear statement that "if you have a permit from another state and move here, you have to get a TN license," I have no doubt about whether his ME license really allows him to legally carry. It does not. Particularly in light of the fact that "if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit." Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West). The OP isn't 21. He cannot meet TN's statutory requirements.

 

[stchman]

To the OP:

A 1911 is not the most ideal firearm for CCW, they are slim, but big.

Get a Ruger LCP and a pocket holster. You can conceal that thing just about anywhere. And yes, .380ACP is a good caliber for self defense.

 

[yugorpk]

I got an answer back from the TN AG or at least the division that handles permits my question was referred to...

"No, if you are a resident of Tennessee you must have a permit from this state. In order to obtain a permit in Tennessee current law requires you to be twenty-one (21) years of age.


Lisa Knight | Director Handgun Unit
P.O. Box 23710
Nashville TN 37202
p. 615-251-5330 f. 615-242-8109
[email protected]
tn.gov/safety"



I suppose you could argue with them about their rules as they haul you off to jail.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, thanks to Spats for the excellent analysis, and to yugorpk for following up with the AG.

It does indeed appear that carrying under these circumstances is unlawful.



Cobra, if you are still in contact with your carry instructor you may want to advise them to contact the AG about this for themselves.

 

[Kleanbore]

Wiki says the same thing as the AG opinion, but it does not cite a source.

 

[Old Dog]

Appears the OP isn't bothering to respond to any of the posts in the thread he started. He posted his thread-starter early in the morning, logged in later in the evening, yet hasn't commented.

It does indeed appear that carrying under these circumstances is unlawful.

As even the non-lawyers on the forum construed from the state's licensing laws.

 

[danez71]

Spats said/quoted

Originally Posted by TN General Assembly
. . . .(r)(1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun

(emphasis added by me)

Besides what has been said by many (particularly, yugoprk's layman efforts were great) and laid out by Spats, 'I think' there is another important part that hasn't really been touched on.


The out of state permit... : "shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state".


Being that he isn't old enough to get the permit in TN, TN would not have issued the permit in the 1st place and will treat it as vaporware.


IMO, this makes the whole argument to be able to use Maine's non-resident permit a non starter.



IF... IF... it somehow made it past that point, Spats laid it out quite nicely why it is overwhelmingly likely that it would fail a court test.

 

[yugorpk]

Tennessee does not issue the permit. Maine does. You pay money to an instructor certified my Maine to give the classes and you go to a class, take the 8-16 hour class whatever. Then Maine issues you a permit when your paperwork goes through. It has nothing to do with Tennessee other than the fact the OP lives in Tennessee and figured it was an end run around Tennessee laws. Unfortunately his instructor was not well enough versed in Tennessee laws to tell him that it was a waste of time . There are some states that have widely accepted CC Permits such as Utah and Maine that are good in most states. I have a Utah license just because its much more widely accepted across the country than my resident states license because I live in a shall issue with no training class state. The Utah license is no good in my home state because I am a resident of my state ( duh ) so I have a permit for my home state. Thats how these things usually work.

Its a "Loophole" that didnt work the way the OP thought it did. Some would call it a scam that backfired or at least fizzled.

The OP has not revisited this post and I get the feeling he's the sort that hears what he wants to hear. He's 19. Takes a few butt kickings to get that out of your system

 

[razorback2003]

If you are a TN resident, you can't carry on another state's permit unless you just moved here (6 month grace period to get a TN permit). You will need a TN handgun carry permit.

18 is the minimum age to POSSESS a handgun. 21 is generally the age here to get a handgun carry permit. There is a new law that does allow military folks 18-20 years old to get a handgun carry permit.

If you don't have a permit and are 18, you can keep a loaded handgun or long gun in your vehicle. You can also carry a handgun or long gun on you when you are hunting, fishing, or at the range. And of course you carry a handgun or long gun on your own property or home.

The ability to keep your handgun loaded in your vehicle should help you out a lot.

If you carry in public outside your vehicle and do not fall under those exceptions, then you are generally risking a misdemeanor criminal violation for intent to go armed.

 

[NormH3]

I just hope the young man takes heed of the discussion here and doesn't continue to carry illegally regardless of what anyone has told him.

 

[Warp]

OP, are you interested in being a test case? The answer to that question, IMO, should answer whether or not you carry on that non resident out of state license at 19 years old

 

[JohnKSa]

The out of state permit... : "shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state".

Being that he isn't old enough to get the permit in TN, TN would not have issued the permit in the 1st place and will treat it as vaporware.

IMO, this makes the whole argument to be able to use Maine's non-resident permit a non starter.

Correct. Correct. And correct again.

And this part of the law is stated so plainly and simply as to be completely loophole proof, even against the most dedicated efforts.

But sadly, I think that yugorpk is spot on:

If you think the OP is going to stop carrying because its been pointed out he's doing it illegally I have some land you might want to consider. He's got his piece of paper. 19 year olds are indestructible.

 

[bearcreek]

Do you have to declare you are carrying?

Not in TN.

 

[Spats McGee]

Do you have to declare you are carrying?

Not in TN.

Yes, but . . .

The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (West)

 

[TimSr]

Both the carry class instuctor and a cop said it was. Its a reciprocity agreement so they have to honor it or honor none at all.

I think you'd be best to talk to a lawyer in home state, because this statement is so false, it's painful to read. Reciprocity is recognition of the permit only, and the laws from the state that issued it do not follow the permit. I'm saying this as a general statement in response to your general statement.

Some states may issue permit to people who have been convicted of certain crimes, and those permits are not likely to be recognized in reciprocity states that disqualify carriers for those same offenses.

But at the same time i refuse to accept anything smaller than a .45 full size gun.

"I want it all, I want it now, and I don't care whether it's physically possible."

 

[MICHAEL T]

Get a smaller 1911 . I carry my Defender more than my Government. . Lot easlier IWB under a t shirt. .....

 

[bearcreek]

I think you'd be best to talk to a lawyer in home state, because this statement is so false, it's painful to read. Reciprocity is recognition of the permit only, and the laws from the state that issued it do not follow the permit. I'm saying this as a general statement in response to your general statement.

I'm a concealed carry instructor here in Ohio. One of the things I emphasize to students is that very often the worst sources of information about gun laws is cops, concealed carry instructors and gun store employees. If they/we can't cite the source for the information they're giving you then it should be taken for what it is, simply their/our opinion that is very likely wrong.

 

[V-fib]

a couple of options: 1. with the bib overalls when I wear mine I use a smart carry holster under them . easy to reach in and draw. 2. Find some polyester wife beater ( I dislike that name) T-shirts. they absorb your sweat very well, protect your skin from the holster, and you can wear any cover shirt over them including a regular T-shirt. Don't wear cotton, it doesn't wick moisture away from your skin like polyester.

I've worn my CCW using these options for years and they work very well. hope this helps.

V-fib

 

[Bullseye]

Old Dog -

Appears the OP isn't bothering to respond to any of the posts in the thread he started. He posted his thread-starter early in the morning, logged in later in the evening, yet hasn't commented.

So I did a google search looking for cobra246 and apparently he uses the same name on several forums. He bought a 1911 kit and phantom jig from Stealth Arms in Ohio and an 80% frame.
I suppose all the rest of the parts too for making his own 1911 build in late Feb 1016. THREAD
I wonder if these finished kits have to become registered firearms?
To me this all sounds like attempting to get around the law to have a handgun and somebody wanting for someone to co-sign his thinking.
Geeze, is this the stuff that gives law abiding gun owners a black eye or what?
I'd rather do two years without a gun than two years or more in a Tennessee jail and then not be allowed to have one after that.

 

[bearcreek]

I wonder if these finished kits have to become registered firearms?

Since TN does not have firearms registration I can't imagine a reason why that kit would have to be "registered". Not even sure how one would accomplish that even if they wanted to.

 

[yugorpk]

He can have a handgun. He can have a handgun he whittled himself out of cheese wiz or a meteorite. Thats not a question. TN laws allows adults between 18-21 to own a handgun and TN law allows anyone who is allowed to own a handgun to build one from an 80% receiver blank and a parts kit. No registration or even serial numbers needed in TN or most states.

He just can't carry it concealed. He was given some bad information and thought he was onto something. Turns out the information he was given wasnt any good but I'm sure thats not going to stop him. Sure as I can be without knowing him. I knew a lot of 19 year olds from Tennessee when I was in the Army. TN has a strong tradition of sending its sons off to the military. I'm sure I'll get flack for saying this but they were an obstinate bunch.

He did do a nice job with the 80% build.