Why is .410 considered such a terrible HD load?

[epijunkie67]

Mods feel free to move this if you feel it doesn't belong here.

I'm wondering why the .410 shotgun is considered such a terrible choice for home defense. Don't get me wrong. I realize it isn't the BEST choice. I know a 12 gauge can deliver a lot more pellets on target. I get that. And even a 20 gauge can do better. Heck even I use a 12, because I can.

But even though they deliver more pellets than a .410 those pellets weigh the same and are moving at about the same velocity. So the energy delivery of any individual pellet is about the same regardless of which shotgun you're using. (and yes, I realize velocities can vary by about 100fps depending on brand)

People frequently recommend a "reduced recoil" load in the 12 gauge for the recoil sensitive. So for comparison I looked at the remington reduced recoil load for the 12 gauge, 9 pellets of 00 buck moving at 1200 FPS. S&B .410, 5 pellets of 00 buck at 1190 FPS. Winchester .410, 5 pellets of 000 at 1135 FPS.

So I gain a whole 4 pellets with the 12 gauge. I know that regular 12 gauge buckshot has around 15 pellets depending on the load (for 00). But with the .410 we are still talking about getting hit with 5 pellets of buckshot at >1000 FPS. That's like taking an entire magazine worth of rounds from my kel-tec .32 at point blank range using +P+ ammo.

So why do people consider the .410 such a terrible choice for the recoil sensitive shooter?

 

[Sinsaba]

...I know that regular 12 gauge buckshot has around 15 pellets depending on the load (for 00). But with the .410 we are still talking about getting hit with 5 pellets of buckshot at >1000 FPS. That's like taking an entire magazine worth of rounds from my kel-tec .32 at point blank range using +P+ ammo.

So why do people consider the .410 such a terrible choice for the recoil sensitive shooter?

I really don't know that much about shotguns but, it appears to me that you have answered your own question (it isn't so much that the .410 is terrible, it just isn't as good as the 12 gauge). From what you posted using a .410 is like taking an entire magazine worth from your kel-tec; however, a 12 gauge would be like taking 3 magazines worth.

I sure as wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either.

 

[mbs357]

The cool thing about .410 is that you can load it into a .45LC revolver.
How does this help the conversation?
Not much.

 

[tuna]

There aren't many tacticool products out for the .410 either.

That makes me think though, with the smaller bore, does the .410 get better patterns with buck than the 12 would the larger bore?

It seems it would be pretty good for HD: lower recoil, lower flash and blast, Politically Correct chambering for a potential civil case, faster recovery time, smaller frame for everyone in the house.

HMMMMM.....I kinda like the idea

 

[Mannlicher]

The cool thing about .410 is that you can load it into a .45LC revolver.
How does this help the conversation?
Not much.

you CANNOT shoot .410 shotgun shells in a .45 Colt Revolver. The .410 OAL is, I believe, 2.9 inches, the .45 Colt is 1.9 inches.

 

[redneck2]

The cool thing about .410 is that you can load it into a .45LC revolver.

You can load the .410 in some single shot and double barrel pistols. I suspect the recoil is substantial

 

[hillbilly]

As you point out with your own math, the .410 has approximately half the number of buckshot pellets as the same load for a .12 gauge does.

That there would be why.

hillbilly

 

[hillbilly]

Go do some of your own experiments.

Get a bunch of the same targets.....gallon milk jugs full of water, similar-sized watermelons, etc.

Go out to a range with a .410 and a 12 gauge.

Shoot the targets and record your results. Use the same kinds of loads on the targets from the same distances.

Just for giggles, bring some birdshot and some slugs, too (if you can find a .410 slug, sometimes those are scarce). Compare performance with those, too.

Let us know what you saw and recorded.

hillbilly

 

[TexasRifleman]

As you point out with your own math, the .410 has approximately half the number of buckshot pellets as the same load for a .12 gauge does.

That there would be why.

hillbilly

And he swapped 00 for 000 in the .410.

Keeping the loads the same, 00 buck in both, you get less than one-third as many pellets in a .410. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me......

Also consider that high capacity defensive shotguns in .410 are, shall we say, not common.....
If you're happy defending yourself with a SxS .410, go for it.

 

[Imaginos]

Winchester Rides Again

I have been considering the Winchester lever action .410 as a housewife's best friend for those of petite stature.
Small, Light, simple manual of arms.

 

[Biker]

I have been considering the Winchester lever action .410 as a housewife's best friend for those of petite stature.
Small, Light, simple manual of arms.

I didn't even know that such a beast was made! That gun could fill a niche or two...
Biker

 

[cxm]

The Math

The 12 ga. has nearly twice the number of 00 pellets as the .410. Even with 000 pellets in the 12 Ga you have 3/5 more pellets...or 60% more 000 pellets than 00 pellets in the .410.

Basically, I think what is being said is the .410 is the least powerful choice of the shotguns... .410s work... just not as well as larger smooth bores.

FWIW

Chuck

Mods feel free to move this if you feel it doesn't belong here.

I'm wondering why the .410 shotgun is considered such a terrible choice for home defense. Don't get me wrong. I realize it isn't the BEST choice. I know a 12 gauge can deliver a lot more pellets on target. I get that. And even a 20 gauge can do better. Heck even I use a 12, because I can.

But even though they deliver more pellets than a .410 those pellets weigh the same and are moving at about the same velocity. So the energy delivery of any individual pellet is about the same regardless of which shotgun you're using. (and yes, I realize velocities can vary by about 100fps depending on brand)

People frequently recommend a "reduced recoil" load in the 12 gauge for the recoil sensitive. So for comparison I looked at the remington reduced recoil load for the 12 gauge, 9 pellets of 00 buck moving at 1200 FPS. S&B .410, 5 pellets of 00 buck at 1190 FPS. Winchester .410, 5 pellets of 000 at 1135 FPS.

So I gain a whole 4 pellets with the 12 gauge. I know that regular 12 gauge buckshot has around 15 pellets depending on the load (for 00). But with the .410 we are still talking about getting hit with 5 pellets of buckshot at >1000 FPS. That's like taking an entire magazine worth of rounds from my kel-tec .32 at point blank range using +P+ ammo.

So why do people consider the .410 such a terrible choice for the recoil sensitive shooter?

 

[Moondoggie]

Go to the store and price .410 ammo, if you can find any.

About 3X the cost of 12 gauge ammo.

I've got a Mossberg .410 3 shot bolt action that I inherited from my Grandpa. I killed many a rabbit & pheasant with it when I was a kid. Taught my kids to shoot on it.

Nothing wrong with a .410. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a load from one into the chest.

 

[Oleg Volk]

410 buck patterns haphazardly. I used to be a real fan of 410, until I played with it a bit and learned more.

410 from a pistol has so little velocity that recoil isn't the problem -- lack of penetration is.

410 slugs weigh only 85 grains and have velocity only slightly exceeding 7.62x25 Tokarev at the same bullet weight...though a wider, softer projectile.

410 would work -- but it is not that impressive.

 

[DCR]

That Winchester 9410 is a pretty cool looking little beast - I'd consider it for my wife to use at home. Maybe after she gets used to it she'll think about taking up Cowboy Action Shooting with me!

 

[Preacherman]

The problem with the .410 is that it's a minimalist answer to a maximum problem. If your life is on the line, you want to defend it with the most effective weapon you can master. If, for some reason (physical size and/or [dis]ability) you can only handle a .410, it's a lot better than nothing (just as a .22 rimfire handgun is better than nothing if that's all you have) - but there are many, many better choices out there, which will handle a more effective cartridge, and provide considerably better terminal ballistics in the BG you're trying to stop. Thus, why bother with a minimalist answer when you can do so much better? It's your life that's at stake. Are you willing to bet on a minimalist defence?

I'm not!

 

[ArmedBear]

There are new long-hull .410 loads that have 5 00 pellets stacked.

Those are not considered terrible.

But I'm sure they kick. It's easier for a small person to shoot a bigger gun. So the benefit is dubious, unless you have a special purpose for them (e.g. snake derringer doubling as campsite defense).

 

[wdlsguy]

People frequently recommend a "reduced recoil" load in the 12 gauge for the recoil sensitive. So for comparison I looked at the remington reduced recoil load for the 12 gauge, 9 pellets of 00 buck moving at 1200 FPS. S&B .410, 5 pellets of 00 buck at 1190 FPS. Winchester .410, 5 pellets of 000 at 1135 FPS.

Even better comparison: Federal LE132-000 (8 pellets of OOO buck @ 1145 fps) vs. Winchester XB413 (5 pellets of OOO buck @ 1135 fps).

 

[History Nut]

.410 Home defense gun

If memory serves me correctly, and sometimes it doesn't, about 15 or 20 years ago one of the main manufacturers came out with a little pump gun configured to be a 'home defender'. If I remember correctly it was .410 and a pump design with a pistol grip on the pump slide. It had a muzzle brake/flash suppressor and was marketed as the 'ladies home defence gun'. I can't remember the company's name though I want to say Marlin or Mossberg. I saw one at the NRA Convention in San Diego (wait a minute, that would be more like 30 years ago!).

I agree that if you can, a 12 gauge is better than a .410 but it is the same old story of what can you shoot well. If all someone will practice with is the 'lesser gun' then that may be their best choice. If they won't hardly even touch the 12 gauge, then that is not the best selection for their use. Me, I like the most gun I can get. Nothing says "Home Defense" like a 90mm Recoiless Rifle with 'Beehive' round! Of course it does tend to singe the wallpaper with the backblast! Now if I could only live somewhere that I could legally own one and the ammo.

 

[epijunkie67]

Don't get me wrong. As I said in the orginal post, I realize that a 12 gauge is a much better choice and one I use myself. But I also know there are a lot of people who can't tolerate a 12 gauge. So when people come here or other gun communities and ask about lighter, easier to use home defense weapons someone will eventually bring up the .410. At that point a bunch of folks usually jump in and dismiss the idea as a terrible choice. "You'd be better off hitting them with a rock." is the kind of response I'll see.

Some people compare it as the .22 of shotguns. But it's not. It's still throwing 00 or 000 buckshot at 12 gauge velocities, just fewer of them. Yeah, I want more than that if I can handle it. Heck, I'd prefer a 10 gauge or even an 8 gauge loaded with 000 Buck 3 1/2" magnum shells if I can handle it! (Now there's an image!)

My reason for posting was to wonder why .410 is such a terrible choice for a shooter who either can't or won't tolerate the more effective 12 gauge. Heck, even the 20 has a pretty good kick and you can't find nearly as many good buckshot loads for it as you can for the .410.

Which makes me ask. If .410 buckshot sucks so bad, why do they make it at all? Your not going to hunt deer with it and you wouldn't use it on smaller rabbit sized game. It seems like it would really only be effective at home defense ranges.

 

[wdlsguy]

If memory serves me correctly, and sometimes it doesn't, about 15 or 20 years ago one of the main manufacturers came out with a little pump gun configured to be a 'home defender'. If I remember correctly it was .410 and a pump design with a pistol grip on the pump slide. It had a muzzle brake/flash suppressor and was marketed as the 'ladies home defence gun'. I can't remember the company's name though I want to say Marlin or Mossberg. I saw one at the NRA Convention in San Diego (wait a minute, that would be more like 30 years ago!).

You remember correctly, it's the Mossberg Home Security shotgun.

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

I would rather have a Mossberg Persuader in .410 than one of those though.

 

[mr.trooper]

Because the 12 guages are more powerfull...Thus everyone automaticly assumes they are better.

They dont think about the issues of recoil...

Or that their 12 guage buckshot load wont have seperated from the shot cup before it hits the target...

Or that since they will have virtualy NO spread with their shotgun, they can easily miss.

Or that if they miss, it will take them longer to get back on target.


BTW, you can buy a mossberg Cruiser with a pistol grip and 18.5" barrel. Thats "tacticool"...

Or the winchester or marlin lever action .410s...

Or the saiga .410 with an 18" barrel...

 

[ArmedBear]

Even better comparison: Federal LE132-000 (8 pellets of OOO buck @ 1145 fps) vs. Winchester XB413 (5 pellets of OOO buck @ 1135 fps).

You must take the weight difference between a 12 gauge and a .410 gauge into account, though. That doesn't close the gap completely, but even an all-steel full-size pump gun like an 870 that weighs 7.5 lb. in 12 gauge HD or field gun trim, weighs only 6 lb. in .410, with a long barrel. So you have roughly 5/8 the recoil because of pellet count, but multiply that by 7.5/6 for the gun weight.

That is a rough estimate, due to different powder charges, etc., but it comes out to the .410 having about 78% of the recoil of the 12 gauge, while only throwing 63% of the lead at your attacker.

The upshot of that? Get a good recoil pad, not a .410! Also, you can put a mercury recoil reducer in the buttstock.

Also...

Gun Tests recommended 20 gauge "youth models" as HD guns, especially for women and other smaller-framed shooters, a while back. They're compact, have a good ratio of recoil to effectiveness on a human target when loaded with buckshot, and they're cheap. The 870, 1300 and 500 youth guns came out in almost a dead heat. I forget which one they preferred, but it was only by a hair's breadth. They'll all work.

WRT the lever .410 guns, if you already have one (God help me to understand why) sure, you could get a 5-ball load and use it for home defense. But that would be a weird reason to go out and BUY one of those guns.

 

[Skofnung]

If a person can handle a pump .410, they can handle a gas operated 20 gauge like a Remington 1100 youth. When I was about ten years old, a friend of my fathers gave me an 1100 youth model in 20 gauge, and it kicked about the same as my .410 NEF. My lanky little ten year old arms had no trouble holding the gun up, so a small lady should be able to manage.

I am a fan of the .410 in a BIG way so don't take this the wrong way. I would rather have a .22 long rifle than a .410 for self defense. Like Mr. Volk, I've played with various loads in various guns, and it is marginal at best against targets over 75 lbs or so even with slugs. Would I use it on a 150 lb + target? If it was all I had, no doubt.

If a person can't handle the "heft" of an 1100 youth model, then a light semi-auto .22 LR would probably be a better choice, provided that the person is willing to practice. JMO.

The .410 belongs in the dove field in the hands of a master, in the rabbit and squirrel fields/swamps for a boy, and on the trap range for those looking for a real challenge. HD is better left to better tools.

 

[mbs357]

you CANNOT shoot .410 shotgun shells in a .45 Colt Revolver. The .410 OAL is, I believe, 2.9 inches, the .45 Colt is 1.9 inches.

WHOOPS.
I know I've heard some version of this somewhere.
I guess they were talking about them single shot pistol like shotguns or derringers...