Why is a FOID necessary to handle guns in gunshops?

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

damien

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
1,212
Location
Northern IL, USA
This is a question for Illinois folks or other folks who know the Illinois FOID act well.

I've always wondered this and the gun show thread running now makes me wonder again.

Why is a FOID necessary to handle guns in gunshops in Illinois?

I understand that the law is specific on the fact that you need to have a FOID to possess or purchase a gun or ammunition in Illinois. But the law is also clear that a person who does not have a FOID can shoot or handle a gun as long as the actual owner is present, supervising the non-FOID card holding citizen, and has a FOID himself.

So I can take a friend to shoot with my supervision. A friend can handle my guns with my supervision. All as long as they don't go out of my sight.

Isn't a gun shop the exact same situation? The retail clerk should be able to supervise a person without a FOID and let them handle a gun or even shoot at the range, if the shop has one, with supervision.

I suspect that is totally legal, having read the law, but all shops ask for a FOID card. Why is that?
 
Foid

When in private the FOID holder may allow the non foid indiv to fondle his/her firearms, that's between them. In a retail setting, the only/main reason to fondle is to purchase. You can't purchase w/o a foid so why allow fondle? The law is always more particular in public.
 
They use it to qualify customers. No FOID means you couldn't buy today if you wanted to.

Same thing happens to a lesser extent in motorcycle shops. Salespeople try to find out if you have a motorcycle license/endorsement. If you do they show you the bikes. If not they steer you towards the "get your M endorsement" literature. Difference is they'll also show you the bikes (though less enthusiastically than if you had a license) because anyone can own a motorcycle even if they aren't legally allowed to ride it in public.
 
"...Why is that?..." Poor customer service. Possibly brought on by some equally stupid law pertaining to retail firearm sales. Anybody who enters any shop is a potential customer with or without the idiotic permits. There's at least one shop, up here, that supposedly won't let you in the shop without our stupid permits. Or descend from people born in a country shaped like a boot.
 
Not at all. I work in a gun shop in MA. Our licensing here is very strict. We only have one or two people behind the gun counter and someone coming in to kick the tires can waste a lot of time. You think you're working on a sale and twenty minutes later they say "We'll thanks..I think I'll look into getting a license someday." Complete waste of time when you could be helping others.

We ask them politely if they have an LTC and explain the reason for it so it isn't like we're being rude
 
Same thing in CT looking at handguns. No Permit.. More than likely they won't be to thrilled about helping you.
 
Basically it saves a lot of time dealing with an experienced shooter compared to a newbie who's "just looking". Backing IllHunter's response on making a sale. Besides, I wouldn't hand a firearm even unloaded to someone with NO experience.

Is the FOID card really working in IL? In terms of preventing "bad guns" in the streets? In a way, it makes sense so bad guys can't buy ammo and to keep guns in their rightful place. I'm curious about this. What's the history behind FOID? Sorry to make an additional post to yours OP.
 
I understand that the law is specific on the fact that you need to have a FOID to possess
Click to expand...

Correct. From Dictionary.com
pos·sess [puh-zes]
–verb (used with object)
8. to maintain control over (oneself, one's mind, etc.).....

11. to make (someone) owner, holder, or master, as of property, information, etc.: He possessed them of the facts.
12. to seize or take.
13. to gain or win.
14. to occupy or hold.
Click to expand...

So once you have it your hands you "possess" the firearm.
.

Now let's check the law:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...tName=Firearm+Owners+Identification+Card+Act.

(430 ILCS 65/2) (from Ch. 38, par. 83‑2)
Sec. 2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card required; exceptions.
(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm,
stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

(2) No person may acquire or possess firearm
ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

(b) The provisions of this Section regarding the possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to:
(1) United States Marshals, while engaged in the
operation of their official duties;

(2) Members of the Armed Forces of the United States
or the National Guard, while engaged in the operation of their official duties;

(3) Federal officials required to carry firearms,
while engaged in the operation of their official duties;

(4) Members of bona fide veterans organizations
which receive firearms directly from the armed forces of the United States, while using the firearms for ceremonial purposes with blank ammunition;

(5) Nonresident hunters during hunting season, with
valid nonresident hunting licenses and while in an area where hunting is permitted; however, at all other times and in all other places these persons must have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(6) Those hunters exempt from obtaining a hunting
license who are required to submit their Firearm Owner's Identification Card when hunting on Department of Natural Resources owned or managed sites;

(7) Nonresidents while on a firing or shooting range
recognized by the Department of State Police; however, these persons must at all other times and in all other places have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(8) Nonresidents while at a firearm showing or
display recognized by the Department of State Police; however, at all other times and in all other places these persons must have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(9) Nonresidents whose firearms are unloaded and
enclosed in a case;

(10) Nonresidents who are currently licensed or
registered to possess a firearm in their resident state;

(11) Unemancipated minors while in the custody and
immediate control of their parent or legal guardian or other person in loco parentis to the minor if the parent or legal guardian or other person in loco parentis to the minor has a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;

(12) Color guards of bona fide veterans
organizations or members of bona fide American Legion bands while using firearms for ceremonial purposes with blank ammunition;

(13) Nonresident hunters whose state of residence
does not require them to be licensed or registered to possess a firearm and only during hunting season, with valid hunting licenses, while accompanied by, and using a firearm owned by, a person who possesses a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card and while in an area within a commercial club licensed under the Wildlife Code where hunting is permitted and controlled, but in no instance upon sites owned or managed by the Department of Natural Resources;

(14) Resident hunters who are properly authorized to
hunt and, while accompanied by a person who possesses a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card, hunt in an area within a commercial club licensed under the Wildlife Code where hunting is permitted and controlled; and

(15) A person who is otherwise eligible to obtain a
Firearm Owner's Identification Card under this Act and is under the direct supervision of a holder of a Firearm Owner's Identification Card who is 21 years of age or older while the person is on a firing or shooting range or is a participant in a firearms safety and training course recognized by a law enforcement agency or a national, statewide shooting sports organization.

(c) The provisions of this Section regarding the acquisition and possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to law enforcement officials of this or any other jurisdiction, while engaged in the operation of their official duties.
(Source: P.A. 94‑6, eff. 1‑1‑06.)
Click to expand...

So for a resident over 21 it boils down to item (15). If your not taking a bonafide safety course. Think NRA Instructors, not "I'ma teechin' cousin Elroy here howta shoot". You can't touch a firearm(or ammunition, parts, etc.) in Illinois unless you have FOID. The only other exception is for Minors and then they have to be under immediate control. The way "immediate control" has been explained to me by several CPO's is "They're within arms length, so that you can reach out and grab the gun if need be."

Not to be snippy, but there are four responses from people who don't live in Illinois, have not bothered to look at Illinois law, and are basically accusing the dealers here of being jerks to their customers.

But after careful reading of the law, it shows that if you're over 21, you need to have a FOID if you even want to touch a firearm. It's not the dealer being a jerk, it's the law.
 
Scout,

Thanks for the well researched reply. I've followed the firearms laws as paraphrased in the NRA-ILA booklet that says 'A person with a FOID card can loan a gun to a non-FOID card owner as long as the gun was used at a range and under the supervision of the owner.'

I think you missed an 'or' in the section 15 you referenced.

I've talked to a man at a local range that is a judge in IL. He and I discussed this very issue a couple of months ago. Without knowledge of any case law to back it up, his interpretation of the FOID act is that it is necessary to have FOID to purchase or possess firearms and ammunition. He will not patronize vendors at gun shows that require a FOID to see/touch a firearm.
I imagine he would consider the definition of 'possess' that you selected to be too broad.

I try to take a friend to the range (farm) on a monthly basis. To date I've introduced 5 friends to the sport. 1 already had his FOID, 2 subsequently applied for theirs, and the other 2 have no intention of purchasing or owning firearms or ammo unless they visit the farm with me.
 
scout26, let's read #15 again and let me add some emphasis

(15) A person who is otherwise eligible to obtain a
Firearm Owner's Identification Card under this Act and is under the direct supervision of a holder of a Firearm Owner's Identification Card who is 21 years of age or older while the person is on a firing or shooting range or is a participant in a firearms safety and training course recognized by a law enforcement agency or a national, statewide shooting sports organization.
Click to expand...

"Or" means either of two conditions, in this case there are three conditions that are legal. On a firing range OR On a shooting range OR Participating in a recognized training course. Don't ask me what the difference between a firing range and a shooting range is.

This means "I'm a teechin' cousin Elroy here howta shoot" is actually legal in Illinois. And every firing range I have ever been to treats it that way. I have taken people who are not minors nor related to me shooting at gun shops before and it has been completely kosher with the shops, because they know it is legal. What is not kosher is showing a gun to a potential customer without a FOID card.

The law you posted does provide some insight though. A clerk showing a gun to a person without a FOID still is exerting direct supervision, but is not on a range, so exception #15 goes out the window.

#15 allows someone who is 21 and has a FOID card to take another person to the range, but apparently doesn't allow them to handle a gun in their living room (or in a retail setting).

Edit: This, of course, depending on the legal interpretation of "possess" as the prior poster makes an argument against. If they never actually "possessed" the gun using the definitions of the statute, then they are never affected by the FOID act at all. So maybe it would be legal, depending. On the range, though, there is no question that it is legal, assuming the FOID card holder is 21 and is exercising "direct supervision".
 
My understanding is that, in legal circles, posession usually means having both intent and actuality of real control (meaning, basically, the ability to use or sell the item). If someone places something in your hand while you are sleeping you do not possess it because you have no intent. If you actively pick something up while the owner (or the owner's agent) is standing next to you and controlling what you can and cannot do you do not have possession.

If you look at the other thread around here somewhere about someone in AZ who tried to walk out of a gun store with a handgun, that guy gained possession of the gun whenever the gunstore owner stopped paying attention and the thief decided to walk out of the store.

Maybe that's the concern ... that the sales person will be distracted and a watching cop will decide "that customer could walk out so he has possession" ... but I think it's basically a pre-qualification.

It's very bad business but gun store owners are rarely accused of being the most savvy business people in the world.
 
Isn't it also possible that the "customer" might have a loaded magazine for that model in his back pocket, and have ill intentions once he has the gun in his hand?
 
Yep, I did miss the "or". Sorry, I'm used to my club/range, where you can bring guests, but they have to fill out a waiver and show their FOID card if they are Illinois residents, non-residents have to show an out of state drivers licence or ID card. No FOID, no shoot. (only exception is when we have organized classes or shoots, but we have NRA instructors at each firing point.)

If you want to take someone out to your back 40 "firing or shooting range" (definiton subject to interpretation of your LEO's and State's Attorney). I would still error on the side of caution, because the person has to be "otherwise eligible to obtain". Do you know for sure that they are "otherwise eligible to obtain" ???

Because if they're not "otherwise eligible", then it's your butt (and 2A rights) on the line, not theirs.

Ed Ames said:
My understanding is that, in legal circles, posession usually means having both intent and actuality of real control (meaning, basically, the ability to use or sell the item). If someone places something in your hand while you are sleeping you do not possess it because you have no intent. If you actively pick something up while the owner (or the owner's agent) is standing next to you and controlling what you can and cannot do you do not have possession.
Click to expand...

Maybe in Texas, but El Tejon's Rule (Texas law is law eveywhere) does not apply in Illinois. If you have a firearm under your control, meaning in Illinois, in your hands, on your person, in your home, and/or in your vehicle, you have possession. Unless of course someone puts it in your hands while your sleeping, or if you sleep walk your way into a gunshop and the clerk puts it into your hands without checking your FOID card. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about knowingly have the firearm in your hands, under your control.

State's Attorneys here have gone after people who have firearms locked in safes or otherwise secured, but there are ex-felons living in the same home. They state that the ex-felon has possession during those times that the non-felon is not in the home and some have even claimed that the ex-felon has possession even if the non-felon is in the home.
 
Last edited:
Maybe it shouldn't matter, but it does. It's been claimed several times over the years that this or that person had been arrested or threatened with arrest by plainclothes police officers at, usually, Illinois gun shows, usually for handling either a gun or ammunition without a FOID.

As I read the law, I don't see an exception for a retail store or a gun show, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. There's an exception for an "approved range," as I recall, but just as a tennis pro shop is not a tennis court, a gun shop is not necessarily a range.

In the Springfield area, for instance, there are:
  • Capital City Arms Supply--in the same building as Bullet Express indoor range
  • Siddens Range in Buckhart, a combination range/gun shop
  • Oglesby & Oglesby, Bill Oglesby's custom shop--no range
  • Fishman's Sporting Goods in Girard--no range
  • Birds 'n Brooks--no range
  • Letz Hunt and Shoot--no range
See what I mean? If you're handling a gun at Siddens, then maybe you'll buy it and go to the range and maybe you won't. Pretty flimsy defense. If you're handling a gun at Birds 'n Brooks, it's pretty obvious you're not at the range. Gun shows, obviously, aren't "approved ranges" either.

I don't like the law, but it's pretty straightforward, unfortunately.
 
Maybe in Texas, but El Tejon's Rule
Click to expand...

***? Texas has nothing to do with it. I spent most of my life in California and CA uses the same concept of Possession. So does IL. Possession is possession and holding something in your hand isn't all there is to possession.

The "Firearms locked in safes or other secured" + felons in the home scenario is more complicated than you imply. It isn't that the felons have possession when the non-felon is out of the home. Those prosecutions (which happen in every state) are based on constructive possession. I'll give you another example of constructive possession: someone gives their girlfriend a key to their apartment. She isn't on the lease, doesn't have any ownership rights, but she can come and go as she pleases without any external control. She has intent (she knows she has the key) and she has control (she can go into the apartment at any time without anyone's help or permission) so she has possession. She hasn't taken away her boyfriend's possession (he still has his key) so her possession is constructive. Contrast that with the guy who only lets his girlfriend into his apartment when he is present. She can enter only when he says it's OK. He is there to watch her as she moves about the apartment. She does not have possession because she does not have control. That latter scenario is your gun store scenario. The sales person has possession because he can unilaterally decide to put the gun away and there is nothing you can do about it.

How does that play into the felon+gunsafe scenario? Let's say you have a safe with a key lock. There is only one key and that key is on your keyring. Does the felon have possession? No. No more than the girlfriend with no key has possession of the apartment. No control, no possession. It would be very difficult for a prosecutor to get that charge to stick in an actual trial. Now let's say you give the felon a key, or keep the key in a cookie jar and everyone in the house knows where that key is... does the felon have possession? Yes, because she can access the contents of the safe without your knowledge or permission. She has control. What type of possession is it? Well, she hasn't taken away your possession (you can still grab the key, unlock the safe, and find your guns) so it is constructive possession. A prosecutor would only need to show that the key was in her pocket or the cookie jar and that the felon knew about the key to demonstrate possession. How about a combination lock? If the felon knows the combo she has constructive possession but does she know the combo? Could a prosecutor prove it?

If she busted open your safe and stashed the guns (leaving you unable to access them) she would instead have actual possession and you would no longer have possession.

All of that said...

I agree that, given how the law is written, it seems that the intent was to say "contact"...you can't have contact with firearms without a FOID except in limited conditions... but possession, the word they used, is more complicated than simply having something in your hand. Does it matter? Probably not... certainly not to me because California isn't nearly as nutty as Illinois.
 
Some years ago, "Snuffy" Pfaleger and his band of malcontents went to the Lake County gun show (just north of Cook County) and planned to go in and raise heck.

The people responsible for the show decided to require showing an FOID to be admitted to the show.

"Snuffy" and his people were as mad as wet hens.
But the self-righteous anti-gunners didn't have any.

tsk tsk.

--Travis--
 
Not at all. I work in a gun shop in MA. Our licensing here is very strict. We only have one or two people behind the gun counter and someone coming in to kick the tires can waste a lot of time. You think you're working on a sale and twenty minutes later they say "We'll thanks..I think I'll look into getting a license someday." Complete waste of time when you could be helping others.

We ask them politely if they have an LTC and explain the reason for it so it isn't like we're being rude
Click to expand...

Well in CA you have to get a handgun certificate. It is valid for 5 years, and then you need another.
It is not quite a Foid , you obtain it like a hunting license and only need it to purchase new handguns, not to own, transport or do anything else with them. It mainly serves as a way for the state to make a profit and update purchasers on all the new laws they come out with constantly.
I imagine it also sets the precedent that they can require people to need a license to purchase firearms, maybe they are trying to ease people into a FOID type scenario.

I know for a fact that requiring someone to have a license to fondle and inspect something will reduce the number of sales.
I have gone into a gun store with others before and had them proceed to fondle several handguns over a period of a couple days without a license, unsure they really wanted one. Checking various ones out, talking about different features and then after they finaly locate one they really like got them to pay for the privelidge of getting the book and taking the test to then purchase the firearm.

I know for a fact they would not have done so if they had not handled the firearms previously, because they were not even sure they wanted one until they found some they really liked after handling several.
One even proceeded to purchase one a month for awhile. As far as I know from the same store they handled them in prior to having the license.

I have seen the same thing happen with people I was not with who were in the store browsing as obvious non gun owners/first time buyers, and only became intent on purchase after really liking a model they held and admired.
Often they are surprised to hear they have to take a test and even need a license. If they had been told that prior to browsing and handling them it is quite likely they would have simply left without purchasing anything.

So your time saving criteria is likely to reduce your total number of sales even if it does reduce the number of people that would take longer to purchase.
 
I work in a gun shop in MA. Our licensing here is very strict. We only have one or two people behind the gun counter and someone coming in to kick the tires can waste a lot of time. You think you're working on a sale and twenty minutes later they say "We'll thanks..I think I'll look into getting a license someday." Complete waste of time when you could be helping others.

We ask them politely if they have an LTC and explain the reason for it so it isn't like we're being rude.
Click to expand...

IMHO - Unless you are following some law, you are being VERY rude.

Perhaps you could interest them in the product and then help them jump through the hoops to buy the product...resulting in a happy customer with an LTC/FOID/orwhateverBSpapersheorshe needs to buy more of the product you sell.

You are doing a good job of serving those who would disarm us. You treat a simple tool as if it were contraband only available to the elite because of some law I hope you don't even support. You have fallen into their trap.

If your shop is so busy with "real" buyers that you can't help a newbie, you can afford more salespeople.

If your shop is so busy with "tirekickers", print up some fliers and put on a weekly seminar on how to jump through the B.S. MA gun-ownership hoops. Make them sign up for a seminar to look at a gun - your sales will soar because you are actually HELPING people learn more about your products, instead of making them feel like clueless dirt.

Dirt is EXACTLY how your current process makes your non-regulars feel. They just spent their time, emotion and gas money to drive to your establishment. Regular retailers spend $40-$80 to get a customer to visit their establishment. You probably just got this newbie for free. They are there to learn about guns and you snubbed them - probably while chatting with a non-buying "regular" and then laughing at the "newbie".

I mean no disrespect here. I totally understand where you are coming from, but I think the sale of something as important, dangerous and personal as a gun means a lot more than most ~$500-$5000 items. If your idea of salesmanship is the next 20 minutes...you do not belong in any sort of business involving a serious capital and emotional investment.

Get a job in telemarketing, used car sales or regular retail. You'll make a lot more money and stop hurting public support of the right to keep and bear arms.
 
I've no 'good' gun shop visits because of my age. I've either had people push to sell me something I wasnt looking for or loomed over me like I was a 4-year old about to steal something. I had someone follow me out once. I asked him if everything was fine (because i would apologize if I had offended him), but he shrugged and went back inside. He probably thought I was a strawshopper (a college kid looking at semi-auto rifles...makes sense, so I cant hate him for it). He also wasnt particularly helpful when the other guy double-checked questionable info, so I'm assuming he wanted me out from the get-go. All 'guns are serious' stuff aside, your basic job as a salesperson of any kind is to inform or help them as much as possible on the product they inquire about. If anything, the fact that buying a gun is a serious or oblivious issue to people who dislike or express negative bias about them should make a gun dealer more wanting to share info with a newbie in order to spread the positive word on guns and the fun and responsible community that surrounds them instead of the 'buy or ****' mentality that I've personally ran into repeatedly.
 
I spent most of my life in California and CA uses the same concept of Possession. So does IL. Possession is possession and holding something in your hand isn't all there is to possession.
Click to expand...

In Illinois possession is "Touch" or "Hold" because the person holding it has contol. Ability or intent has nothing to do with it. (Unless we use your putting the gun in the hand of a sleeping person example.) That's how the State's Attorneys have read it.

This might help clarify: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...End=53000000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961%2E


(720 ILCS 5/Art. 24 heading)
ARTICLE 24. DEADLY WEAPONS

(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(d) The presence in an automobile other than a public omnibus of any weapon, instrument or substance referred to in subsection (a)(7) is prima facie evidence that it is in the possession of, and is being carried by, all persons occupying such automobile at the time such weapon, instrument or substance is found, except under the following circumstances: (i) if such weapon, instrument or instrumentality is found upon the person of one of the occupants therein; or (ii) if such weapon, instrument or substance is found in an automobile operated for hire by a duly licensed driver in the due, lawful and proper pursuit of his trade, then such presumption shall not apply to the driver.
Click to expand...

Here's (a)(7), just to clarify what they're referencing in the above snip.

(7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries:

(i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for
the purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;

(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less
than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches; or

(iii) any bomb, bomb‑shell, grenade, bottle or
other container containing an explosive substance of over one‑quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles; or
Click to expand...
 
Foid

It's no different in NY State. I live in NJ where they require FOID. When I go to a gun show in NY State I have to show my Firearms ID before I can even touch a handgun. That's the law. I may not like it but don't leave home without it.
 
I hate Illinois. The FOID applications are running really behind. A friend of mine sent her application out around the end of November and she is still waiting. The law gives the Illinois State Police 30 days to issue the card.
 
Foid

My girlfriend and I applied together around Thanksgiving and got them
before Christmas , so I'd say it took about 30 days , give or take a few. Maybe they mean 30 business days , who knows , or your friend's application got delayed because of the holidays ( Christmas , New Year ).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
Can I pick up a friend's guns in Illinois?
Replies
9
Views
809
Matt304
M
C
  • Locked
Illinois legality?
Replies
2
Views
398
Captain*kirk
C
B
  • Locked
(IL) Action Alert
Replies
10
Views
590
scout26
S
D
  • Locked
The Law Vs. Your Morals: What Would You Do?
Replies
13
Views
646
Don Gwinn
D
S
  • Locked
Illinois SP Overstepping Authority by Refusing to Issue FOID Cards to Youths
Replies
11
Views
1K
ilbob
ilbob
Back
Top