Can I pick up a friend's guns in Illinois?

[Matt304]

I have a question pertaining to who can legally be transferred a friend's two rifles from out of state and who just moved back home.

My friend lived in Boston for a little while and had his 2 rifles there. He moved back to Illinois just recently, where he previously owned a FOID card and also lived about 3 years ago. He had the guns shipped to a dealer here in Illinois that is close to home so he could pick them up. After he had them sent, he realized that his Illinois FOID card was no where to be found, and he must reapply for a replacement while living back here. So now the dealer in Illinois has his 2 guns, but he has no FOID card to take them back into possession with in Illinois.

He asked me if he could keep the guns in my vault for now, since the only place he shoots them is on our personal range, and since he currently has no FOID card to possess them with.

So my question is this. Can I pick up my friend's guns from the dealer who has them, and keep them in my possession until his FOID card shows up and he can take them back?

I was not sure if they would have to be physically transferred to me like a purchase, or if he, being the legal owner of the guns, can simply give consent to the dealer for me to temporarily possess them with my permit.

I love Illinois. :banghead:

 

[dogtown tom]

Matt304 I have a question pertaining to who can legally be transferred a friend's two rifles from out of state and who just moved back home.

My friend lived in Boston for a little while and had his 2 rifles there. He moved back to Illinois just recently, where he previously owned a FOID card and also lived about 3 years ago. He had the guns shipped to a dealer here in Illinois that is close to home so he could pick them up. After he had them sent, he realized that his Illinois FOID card was no where to be found, and he must reapply for a replacement while living back here. So now the dealer in Illinois has his 2 guns, but he has no FOID card to take them back into possession with in Illinois.

He asked me if he could keep the guns in my vault for now, since the only place he shoots them is on our personal range, and since he currently has no FOID card to possess them with.

So my question is this. Can I pick up my friend's guns from the dealer who has them, and keep them in my possession until his FOID card shows up and he can take them back?

I was not sure if they would have to be physically transferred to me like a purchase, or if he, being the legal owner of the guns, can simply give consent to the dealer for me to temporarily possess them with my permit.

I love Illinois.

ATF would consider this a "straw purchase"....you are acquiring a firearm for another person.

When you fill out the Form 4473 the first question will ask:

Are you are the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person......

In short, no you cannot do it without violating Federal law.

 

[Matt304]

I believe you, it's just ironic because he already owns the guns. He purchased them, and they are registered to him. He even has his FOID already in the system in Illinois from before, he is just getting a new one.

So, let me get this straight. I would be making a straw purchase by returning the rifles to the man who already is the documented owner of the rifles, an owner who would be a completey legal owner with FOID card on file while at the time of the return. Is that correct?

What happens when friends let other friends borrow guns? Are they participating in straw transactions without filling out paper work? What if he had stayed in Boston, and I said, "can I borrow 2 of your rifles for a hunting trip?", and the rifles were then sent to me. They could not be loaned to me in that case, they would have to be completely transferred, with waiting period, as if I was the new owner of the guns, and then when I sent them back, he would fill out the paperwork and have them transferred back? Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out when "possession" is considered "ownership".

Thanks

 

[Black Butte]

it's just ironic because he already owns the guns.... I would be making a straw purchase by returning the rifles to the man who already is the documented owner of the rifles, an owner who would be a completely legal owner with FOID card on file while at the time

Welcome to Illinois. In this case, your friend needs to first get his FOID card renewed. By the way, Illinois is currently taking over two (2) months to process renewal applications. This means that in the future you will want to apply for your new FOID card at least two months before your current card's expiration date.

 

[dogtown tom]

Matt304 I believe you, it's just ironic because he already owns the guns. He purchased them, and they are registered to him. He even has his FOID already in the system in Illinois from before, he is just getting a new one.

It has nothing to do with ownership or registration. It is considered a "transfer" under ATF regulations.

So, let me get this straight. I would be making a straw purchase by returning the rifles to the man who already is the documented owner of the rifles, an owner who would be a completey legal owner with FOID card on file while at the time of the return. Is that correct?

You would be committing a straw purchase because YOU are not the actual buyer/transferee....the guns are intended to be given to your friend and the both of you would be in violation of Federal law. Whether he is legally capable of owning firearms is not the question....it has been a Federal law since 1968 that ONLY the actual buyer/transferee may complete the Form 4473 and take possession of the firearm.
The FOID has nothing to do with anything regarding a straw purchase.

What happens when friends let other friends borrow guns?

The temporary loaning of a firearm to a friend is not prohibited by Federal law. The situation in your original post does not meet that criteria.

What if he had stayed in Boston, and I said, "can I borrow 2 of your rifles for a hunting trip?", and the rifles were then sent to me.

Then you both would be in violation of Federal law- your friend for shipping a firearm interstate to someone who is not a licensed dealer or manufacturer and you for receiving the firearm. It would be legal for your friend to ship the guns to a licensee in your state and then you would need to complete a 4473 to take possession...even if temporary.

Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out when "possession" is considered "ownership".

Possession has nothing to do with ownership. If you buy a firearm from a dealer or individual out of state, it is shipped to your dealer where you complete a 4473 and pass a NICS check you can take possession. If you fail the NICS check you still own the gun, but cannot take possession until you successfully appeal the NICS denial.

Federal law allows a person to ship a firearm interstate TO HIMSELF. So your friend could have saved himself quite a bit of $$$ and grief if he had done a few minutes research. All he needed to do is address the package to himself at an address in your state. He would be the ONLY one who could legally open that package.

 

[Matt304]

Dogtown,

Thanks for all of the description.

Apparently he was told that he had to ship his guns home to a dealer. So he found a guy to do it, but he had no idea that when asked for his FOID, he would not be able to locate it.

The only reason I am here posting is because I have an interest in one of the guns which is frozen there. It's a 308 SCAR which I may purchase from him. So it looks like it will be 2 months before I see that one. It amazes me that in the year 2011, a wonderful thing called a record cannot be looked up in 30 seconds over a phone call to verify that he has a FOID card. Why don't we just keep the data on chalk boards instead of these futuristic hard drive thingys that are hard to use?

 

[NavyLCDR]

When you go to pick up the guns from the dealer, the first yes/no question you answer of the form 4473 will be "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm?" The honest answer will be NO, your friend is the actual purchaser of the firearms. If you answer NO to that question, your purchase will be denied. If you answer YES to that question, you have made a false written statement to a licensed dealer, which violates Federal law, 18 USC 922 (a)(6).

Violating 18 USC 922 (a)(6) is commonly referred to as a "straw purchase", but it is really nothing other than making the false statement on the form 4473.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

 

[Sam1911]

The only reason I am here posting is because I have an interest in one of the guns which is frozen there. It's a 308 SCAR which I may purchase from him.

That may add a wrinkle. Can he purchase the gun on his own FOID card without finding his friend's own FOID? The dealer has it, the friend can be there and confirm that he wants to sell, dealer gets his cut, buyer IS the actual purchaser.

Now, being IL, I'm sure this can't make quite that much sense, but it looks like there would be no problem.

 

[crm7290]

Can't he legally pick them up if he still has his license for Massachusetts? He may still be a resident of Mass.

Otherwise he has to get in touch with the ISP

 

[Matt304]

I understand the whole form 4473 deal at this point. There's no more need for explaining. The whole reason of initial confusion was that I had no idea a person had to fill out a freaking form to pick up the guns they already own themselves. Lol.

I thought there was a record of purchase, and an owner could just prove he owns them, and then I thought the owner had the right to say who can possess his guns, so long as that person is legal to actually possess them. I thought paperwork was only required for the sale transfer of a gun, not just the loaning out of a gun. Again, I thought the guns could be loaned to me, he still owns them, he is already legal just doesn't have proof of it, then gets them back when he can show the proof. See, through an average persons eyes who doesn't have knowledge of an entirely whacked system, you wouldn't think there would be anything wrong with such a transfer because no one illegal or who can't possess the gun is possessing it along the way. But due to an entirely whacked system, I would be a criminal for taking my friends guns that I am perfectly legal to possess, so I must instead simply shrug it off and laugh at the system we live in. Yes I know, my friend could have avoided this by simply shipping the guns to himself, which only more shows the irony of the guns being kept from him.

About the SCAR, I'm not certain I'm going to buy it. He's going to let me borrow it, and I'm going to decide after I shoot it if it's worth the cost. I am into heavy bench guns more so than semi autos, so it's a tough choice. It's a good deal not to pass up more than anything.