Why is the new US battle rifle being designed by Germany?

[munk]

That's pretty much it. The new American Rifleman issue features both the proposed new cartridge and that HK and another investment group were developing the XM8, the prototype platform of our military modular rifle.

I do not intend this question to become an argument about Germany or Europe. But I'm confused. Who asked H&K to do this? The United States is the nation of John Browning. Ruger is ahead of the world in investment casting. We have people in the US and manufacturers presumably interested and qualified. What does HK have to do with this?

Britain builds its own equipment, as does Germany. Why is the US doing this?
I realize HK is a leader amongst small arms- but then, we have Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin and Savage.



munk

 

[boofus]

Same reason Fabrique Nationale builds the M16s and M4s we use now?

 

[Dionysusigma]

Their guns are prettier.

They design it, we buy the design and build it ourselves. Or we buy the design and have it built in Taiwan. Keep in mind that the Celeron (?) was invented by the Israelis.

Also remember, tho, that the FAL was originally Belgian. Were they the only ones to use it? What about the Enfield? Mosin-Nagant? AK?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Free trade.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Ruger is ahead of the world in investment casting.

Maybe so, but are our troops going to want to read that acre of legal vomitus on the barrel?

 

[ny32182]

The government puts out a contract, and companies bid on it.

That bidding is obviously not restricted to US companies... there you go.

 

[OH25shooter]

You got it right. Government stuff of any kind goes to the low bidder.

 

[itgoesboom]

I realize HK is a leader amongst small arms- but then, we have Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin and Savage.

BINGO!! We have a winner.

Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin and Savage all make nice rifles, but none of them really have much experience making battle/assault rifles.

Compare that to HK. They had the G3, the HK33, HK53, G36, plus the submachine guns consisting of the MP-5 series and UMP series, not to mention the PSG-1, and don't forget the HK21E, HK23E and MG43 (the machineguns).

No doubt being the low bidder is important, but there is a reason why they can do it for less, they already have the manufactoring capability for the numbers needed, and have proven that they can succeed.

I.G.B.

 

[boofus]

Winchester built M1 Garands and Carbines during WW2

More likely is they don't submit proposals to the DoD when they say a new standard rifle is in the works. Even the few rifles in use that are American made, they are variations of popular hunting guns like the Remington M24 Army sniper rifle and M40A1 for the Marines.

Maybe the big American companies just don't have it in them to make a black evil looking rifle any more?

 

[Warbow]

Same reason Fabrique Nationale builds the M16s and M4s we use now?

Colt builds some of the M16s and all of the M4s.

 

[KaceCoyote]

Monkeys can build a rifle, but that doesnt make them John Browning.


H&K, FN and Kalashnikov each have designed a wider variety of military smallarms than any American firm.

 

[Glock Glockler]

Why would the US govt give US businesses a chance when they can get them done by foreign companies, expecially China?

The answer is the same reason why the US govt subsidizes the Chinese steel and Air travel industries at the expense of the US taxpayer, as well as why we gave the finger to Poland, an ally of ours who was going to produce AKs for Iraq and we instead gave the contract to China.

 

[J Miller]

The government puts out a contract, and companies bid on it.
That bidding is obviously not restricted to US companies... there you go.

It should be.

It's high time we quit supporting foreign industries at the cost of our own. If this isn't stopped we will be totally at the mercy of our enemys. I really don't consider European countries as really trustworthy friends.


Joe

 

[Dave R]

Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin and Savage all make nice rifles, but none of them really have much experience making battle/assault rifles.

There ya go. John Moses Browning is dead, and none of the US firearms companies has much of a design team any more. Where are the new, original designs from US firearms companies? The only one that comes close to new designs any more is Kel-Tec, fer crying out loud.

We don't have any innovators in our firearms industry.

 

[Nightfall]

Why is the new US battle rifle being designed by Germany?

I haven't quite reached that point yet. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a 5.56mm carbine with a 12.5" barrel that weighs 7.5 lbs being better than a 5.56mm M4 w/ a 14.5" barrel that weighs 5.9 lbs with something like the Leitner-Wise gas piston. Granted it has the fancy optic, but I fail to see why we couldn't stick it on a 1913 rail and call it a day. :banghead:

I've never been all that smart though. I guess it's the wider range of colors and ambi controls that make it all worth while.

 

[scout26]

I realize HK is a leader amongst small arms- but then, we have Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin and Savage.

John Moses Browning is dead, and none of the US firearms companies has much of a design team any more.

No, because they have to pay for the legal teams to defend them from the baseless lawsuits filed by the blue cities and states........

 

[jefnvk]

Not to steal Winchester's thunder, but they didn't design the M1. Only built some.

Also remember, that any company that builds the rifle has to have a US plant.

Also remember, it seems that the XM8 is out of the running (as of now), as it can't fit the LMG category.

That being said, only Colt (who didn't even design the M16, just bought the rights) seems to have any EBR experience on American shores.

Couple that, with I'd rather have the troops having the BEST equipment, not the stuff being made in some congresscritter's district (unless it is the best stuff). If the foreign stuff is the best, contract to them, require them to build a US plant and hire US employees.

Or maybe we should bring back Springfield Armory. That is my pick.

 

[steveno]

probably couldn't afford to wait for Colt to do it

 

[ny32182]

Robinson Armament and the XCR is new, innovative, and has a lot of potential.

I just doubt that the company is big enough to handle the logistics of major production for the US government on any level.

 

[lunaslide]

We don't have any innovators in our firearms industry.

Not true:
http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system.htm

What's very illuminating is why they were rejected for the SCAR program at the last minute.

http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system_reje.htm

Chris Byrne has some good thoughts about the next US battle rifle. He explains the reason FN was chosen for the SCAR and a possible reason the XCR was kept out:

More important than any of that however, is that from all testing reports it is the better weapon, but Robinson is a small manufacturer and they couldn't offer the same purchasing perks as FN. FN has the advatage of being the current primary military rifle contractor, and they could both offer better terms on the new rifle, and penalize us on existing contracts for the M16, which apparently they did.

According to some reports FN has held up some M16 and M249 rebuild contract fulfilment while their products were under evaluation, and back channel threatened other slowdowns if their products werent selected. I wont link them here because, firstly I don't know how trustworthy the reports are (though I trust the sources), and second, because the people who've said this could get in trouble.

This can happen with American companies too, but at least we would be able to do something about it. We should be turning to American companies for our weapons platforms.

 

[armoredman]

Firearm designers and manufacturers have to eat, too. They can spend millions developing the rifle, all its attendant hardware, etc, and then be turned down. When on shaky ground, like an unknown US legal battleground, it might be wiser to rein in, and save a few $ for the blood sucking, er, lawyers.
Now to mention, after they go through the whole schmear, they get a one shot whiz bang contract, and no civilian sales, unless they redesign for a semi-auto only, and then hope Congress doesn't jack them there, too!

 

[PromptCritical]

Here's my take on it.

There will never be an American designer like John Browning or Eugene Stoner again because regulations have destroyed the ability of the inventor to design and build a military rifle at home. Think about it, If you dreamed up a whiz bang design for a new battle rifle, the most you could do is file a patent on the design, and hope to God you could get in contact with a manufacturer. If you built it yourself they would say "Wow! That's fantastic! We'd buy a million as soon as you get out of prison, except you'll be a felon."

 

[The Rabbi]

A lot of good thoughts on this topic.

Maybe the companies are smarter than we think and they actually dont want the contract. Colt sucked gov't teat for years with the M-16. I dont see where it did that much for the company. Remington supplied a lot of Garands and by the end of the war they were nearly bankrupt. Gov't contracts are not where the money is, private citizens like us and law enforcement is. If I owned an arms company supplying mass quantities of low-priced weapons at razor thin margins would be the last thing I'd want to be doing.
Isnt HK building a plant in GA or somewhere to manufacture?
Also I think someone on this board was a designer for FN so maybe he'll chime in.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Government stuff of any kind goes to the low bidder

Trust me, I know this first hand.

Like when I have to deploy and get on a commercial jet (crate) that is taking us on the other side of the world. Lowest bidder isnt exactly top of the line maintenance. Know what I mean?

 

[trapperjohn]

There will never be an American designer like John Browning or Eugene Stoner again because regulations have destroyed the ability of the inventor to design and build a military rifle at home

and just how many american rifles do you think were designed at home? The grand was developed over about a decade, and JMB was paid by gun manufacturers to design weapons.

part of it is our society. Look at what most college students major in, light fluffy stuff like "parks and recreation". Go to any university and look at the list of graduate students, it is usually 80-90% indian or asian.