The Stoner design and why it's bad.

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Baja Oro

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Well folks here we go!

Alittle about myself, I was a sniper in the army for 5 years, as additional skills identifiers I was an infantry armorer, SFAT advisor and a team leader with 1 tour in Afghanistan. I bring up my credentials as we shall see in further reading of this post.

My plan! to educate on my "perception" of the Stoner designed direct impegment gas AR15 line of firearms. This post has been sparked by resent events taking place within our world mainly involving Russia. I don't need to get into that as many I'm sure are aware and if not google how 40 million Russian citizens are being evacuated for a military drill and just do some digging. Anyways...

The AR-15 line of firearms have been purchased in large degree in our American market. Most will buy at least one, when asked why are you getting it? Well for some "well they will be banned soon" for others "I always wanted one" and yet others "because the world is going to ...." fill in the blank there.

Well let's say you have that rifle and you have it for as what many term a SHTF situation. Well let me put my perspective to this. Many will disagree and that's fine; what I aim to do is show my perceptions as to what I see as fact. Is it right? Well many factors come into play with any assumption of perception for one individual; but I would hope to derive from this a healthy discussion which I know has been discussed before but let's just do it again.

First off do not get one of these rifles known as AR15's or clones and 308 models as well unless you know them well and follow guidelines that I will set here. I also admit I own one a Daniel Defence V11 model but besides that let's get into this. First off the inherent flaw of the gas tube and why it's so important.

While in my military career we had the M4 model 14.5" barrel Colt and rare FN versions as well. In my time in the service I noticed something before deploying and that was at least every range day one M4 would break, not only this but in the sake of humor while in basic infantry training I witnessed one of our soldiers doing push-ups or as we like to call it being "smoked" why? Well he was shooting is M4 on full auto instead of semi auto, well to my disbelief he explained to me he was not indeed shooting full auto but semi auto and for some reason his rifle was acting up. Turns out his rifle was shooting 2 round burst on semi auto, quick look shows wear on the trigger assembly causing this oddity, which later happend to my new rifle in Afghanistan "by new I refer to an old upper but new trigger parts with only 3000 rounds through and I experienced this 2 round burst as well. It would seem the design of soft materials used in trigger groupings had caused this. But that isn't even the issue my issue is the other things thisnrifle did under combat and in training; and that has to do with the gas system. On more fingers than I have to count I have seen the M4 become a single shot rifle also happening to me. Well this sparks from the gas system and more technical the tight tolerance of this rifle and extremely small gas tube. On many of our rifles the gas tube become inop this was due to smalls holes or pits of corrosion within the tube something I know many of you if not all do not clean, I don't! Well now I do but how? Easiest way is shooting salvent down it and then airing it out with a compressor but you have to seriously make sure all liquid gets out before shooting or your barrel may blow up.

Many many AR15's undergo this gas tube erosion and many do not see it because how could you? Your rifle will shoot one day and the next day that pit hole pressurizes enough and suddenly you have a single shot rifle. If you have had that in combat happen trust me you won't trust that weapon anymore. So let's say your in SHTF an escalation that last three years and you haven't the resources to properly clean this gas tube your asking for trouble; it will randomly happen and when it does you will be in the worst situation as you will only know the issue once it happens while in live fire.

So some will say well that's why I got the piston version. Well good for you, but the other issue arises of the bolt carrier design and it loving to take in all matter of dust. It gets int here grinds and is hard to clean out that and the star chamber also being a pain.

5.56 is also very useless at times taking more than 4 shots just to drop a man, a man with no body armor so someone with it is even more of an issue. That and its range is not that great having to do with MOA and the fact really after 300 meters the AR15 is not fun to have especially in open desert situations.

Not only this but as an SFAT member with Afghan army relations. We came accross all M16's they owned as being defective and not up to the challenge of a war, you see the Afghan army is kinda what we would be as resistance groups not having proper maintanecce procedure and thus, ally here M16's had messes or issues. Mainly gas tube and and front hangurard breaks. On the other side of things I came accross various Klashnikov based weapons designs Romania, Poland, Russian, Hungarian and Yugoslavian and the great Chinese AK, all had there love in Afghanistan via ther AKM's and guess what when seeing these rifles or being shot at by them they worked, not only that but to the man who knows these rifles history; knows they acquired them at different points. Such as Chinese ones these were given to mujahideen by the CIA in the Cold War. I have held and shot Cold War Chinese AK's they have lasted all this time being slung on someone's back like you have your phone in your poker every day and they still will working, granted the barre rifleing was shot out making them inaccurate in various degrees but it shot. Only issue with the AKM's that I saw was broke wood stocks and the occasional bedazled AK with various ornaments and stickers of culture on a weapon : /

For those of you that want an actuall trust worthy rifle get an M1A I recommend the scout synthetic model, wood stocks are not trust worthy and can break from just one engagement when you go diving to the ground and use your rifle as a fall stop. I personally have a socom 16 and 20 round mags don't get 30 rounders not reliable compared to 20's. Other rifles to consider are the new version of the mini 14 in stainless steel, both the M1A and mini 14 have great gas systems and because the action is large and on top gases do blow out small dust eventually cleaning the rifle every time it's shot. As for AK's some arnt good such as center arms, I recommend Chinese type 56's or arensal products the AKM is a good design.

Ultimately it's up to the user to keep your rifle working keep it clean and above all buy spare parts for any rifle you own and the tools to fix it. And if you decide on the AR 15 make sure to buy an extra gas tube and know how to replace it.
 
Buy a high quality gas tube.... not just any cheap one from online. ( Amazon / EBay )

There is a huge difference in quality.
 
Very true even within Colt I'm sure there gas tubes have been made in various metal compositions over the years, what I'm getting at is the gas tube is just very hard to clean and in mobile situations may not be able to be cleaned at all. It's such a small tube and collects corrosion, especially in humid climates.
 
Considering the much more serious problems that plague most other auto designs ranging from painful inaccuracy to extremely poor ammo tolerance, I'll keep my LMT ARs. The gas tubes aren't that hard to clean if need be.

I use AR Gold drop in trigger packs, so I don't have any concerns about lower wear causing ignition problems.

I agree that 5.56 is very deficient in the terminal ballistics department. If you state allows such insanity, go out and try shooting some 90 lb deer with m855. Then try to explain how it'll work on a 200 lb human.
 
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do you think the chemical composition of the powder currently used in 5.56 plays a role?

I'm ignorant of the tech data in ammo we are supplying these days.
 
You are reporting on several problems that are largely rare inside the AR shooting world, both military and civilian. I've never seen a perforated gas tube in my time in the military or my years as a competitive shooter. Fire control groups failing within a few thousand rounds is also rare, another thing I've never seen myself but I'm sure it happens. As for broken handguards, yeah, that's going to happen occasionally in a war zone, but so is broken wood on an AK.

Pointing at those problems, and not understanding the real problems that the AR system has, like stuck cases, worn gas rings, broken extractors, and average at best magazines, makes me question your whole argument. If sudden gas tube failure and worn FCGs was the AR's major problems, it would be the best weapon system in the world.
 
From at endurance findings at rental range:

The shorties are also the same units that erode the gas tubes. We haven’t lost a 16″ or 20″ barrels gas tube before the barrel itself failed from keyholing.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Something else to keep in mind. How many of those functioning Russian rifles had bit the dust that you didn't see. I highly doubt most ak rifles have had parts swapped, maintenance, or high round count. When they went down they stayed down.

The bolt head itself is much more fragile on the ar but.....parts are easily swapped with this platform so it isn't much of an issue.
 
do you think the chemical composition of the powder currently used in 5.56 plays a role?

I'm ignorant of the tech data in ammo we are supplying these days.

I say no, it is not a factor. While not too common anymore, a few years ago buying surplus WC844 and WC844T (the powders used in 5.56 ammo) was very common, and no problems other than a dirt rifle resulted from it.
 
I disagree with just about everything you just wrote. I have more experience using the M4/M16 in harsh conditions than what you list as your credentials and haven't run into anything other than ballistics that makes me doubt the performance of my rifle.
 
Pointing at those problems, and not understanding the real problems that the AR system has, like stuck cases, worn gas rings, broken extractors, and average at best magazines, makes me question your whole argument. If sudden gas tube failure and worn FCGs was the AR's major problems, it would be the best weapon system in the world.[/QUOTE]

I didn't feel like writing a full book on this subject. I was showing flaws in this design. I am aware of the other issues plagging the AR as I was a "Trained Armorer" in these matters. My context refers to the Gas tube and its deficiency without visual recognition, only mechanical recognition. You can visually see a "gas key" or visually see an extractor and fix it during an inspection.

As for not seeing any gas tube failures, while some of you were in the military well as I said factors play into this. First off what MOS were you? For MOS some units don't shoot as much as others some have different budgets. My MOS at one point was shooting weekly while my friends wife also in the military shot here rifle annually, and second were you using a 14.5 barrel or larger? And what climate were you in where the weapons resided.

As for this gold stuff for your mechanical trigger "interesting and never heard of it" will look into that. But the trigger assembly failing wasn't the main issue here more of a way of explaining the metals used for that particular brand may be softer than should be. For all I know our drop in replacement trigger packs were from the lowest bidder cast in china who knows
 
I have also seen parted out AKM's before we had a parted out one we found that stayed at our location. Polish one I think. But it may have been made that way to make it inop by someone who ditched it. I have also seen British weapons and nagants there that still work. What I noticed was our Afghan police who used AKMs seen to better suited than the army that used M16's. Of all the weapons though the M2 50 cal was the worst everyone of them we have to there army was not working they just required to much maintenance and the dubasses kept loosing the head space and timer key.
 
Hrmmm.

When I enlisted in 1991 we were issued brand new FN manufacture M16A2's. I wasn't impressed with the reliability of those models, or those I used in later units.

Things have progressed significantly since then though. I spent a week with Tiger McKee recently (shooting a SCAR based on prejudices I picked up back then) and came away from that very impressed with how well ARs are doing now. Off the top of my head:
  • Magazines are better, and we know to toss out questionable mags now
  • The ammo we're shooting, at least in the civilian world, is not nearly as dirty as the stuff we were issued back then
  • We know how to lube these things properly, and have better products to use than CLP
  • Some parts are just better, like extractors.
The AR Tiger is shooting with now has seen somewhere in excess of 26,000 rounds without a misfire and without real cleaning - just lubing it regularly and wiping it down. My buddy brought a fairly basic DPMS that wasn't broken in yet and went 1,200 rounds without issue, and without cleaning it. A 23 year-old me would have never believed that possible.

The AR world of today isn't the same as the AR world of my youth. Just my opinion.
 
As for the direct gas impigment system it is for many known as this just like the coined term "assault rifle" I guess we can call it what it is an "expanding gas system" but its mute in this debate; essentially what I'm referring to is the gas tube in itself is directly pressured by the barrel the only difference here is that it so happens at the end of this gas stem to have a moving part located on the bolt; this changing of terminology makes no difference it's still 90% direct gas impogment there fore the entire tube that does not reciprocate happens to foul and is not easy to clean. And on smaller barrels is even worse as pressure is higher.
 
The AR world of today isn't the same as the AR world of my youth. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]


I agree they have changed significantly and many companies make them; some may cut corners in aspects that arnt easily noticed. But besides the point I am against the small tube design. All firearms have flaws it's more of a matter of choosing what will be the easiest to fix. Accuracy isn't mainly a concern of mine, unless you are utilizing a rifle for sniping. For coined assault rifles it's great and all to hear about how you can get three shots in a quarter size hole, but if this were combat trust me you won't be getting that same rifle to shoot quarter size groupings, this is because you will be getting shot at or simply aiming at another human being will get you all nuted up. Instead you will be concerned with getting rounds downrange in that targets direction not siting on a fancy bench rest or having cameras on you for you tube reviews or how well you can shoot. This is why it didn't really matter if the AK's there were inaccurate because they defiantly still worked and dropped some of us. So it's great and all to have a nice accuarate AR but not a concern in most situations. Half the M4's I used and fixed were rated and 6MOA or higher nor great but for the most part it sent rounds down range
 
Very true even within Colt I'm sure there gas tubes have been made in various metal compositions over the years, what I'm getting at is the gas tube is just very hard to clean and in mobile situations may not be able to be cleaned at all. It's such a small tube and collects corrosion, especially in humid climates.
The switch to stainless steel happened almost immediately after coming out of the prototype stage.
 
I disagree with just about everything you just wrote. I have more experience using the M4/M16 in harsh conditions than what you list as your credentials and haven't run into anything other than ballistics that makes me doubt the performance of my rifle.

So what your saying is that I imagined gas tubes pitting and rendering M4's useless?
 
Well folks here we go!

Alittle about myself, I was a sniper in the army for 5 years, as additional skills identifiers I was an infantry armorer, SFAT advisor and a team leader with 1 tour in Afghanistan. I bring up my credentials as we shall see in further reading of this post.

My plan! to educate on my "perception" of the Stoner designed direct impegment gas AR15 line of firearms. This post has been sparked by resent events taking place within our world mainly involving Russia. I don't need to get into that as many I'm sure are aware and if not google how 40 million Russian citizens are being evacuated for a military drill and just do some digging. Anyways...

The AR-15 line of firearms have been purchased in large degree in our American market. Most will buy at least one, when asked why are you getting it? Well for some "well they will be banned soon" for others "I always wanted one" and yet others "because the world is going to ...." fill in the blank there.

Well let's say you have that rifle and you have it for as what many term a SHTF situation. Well let me put my perspective to this. Many will disagree and that's fine; what I aim to do is show my perceptions as to what I see as fact. Is it right? Well many factors come into play with any assumption of perception for one individual; but I would hope to derive from this a healthy discussion which I know has been discussed before but let's just do it again.

First off do not get one of these rifles known as AR15's or clones and 308 models as well unless you know them well and follow guidelines that I will set here. I also admit I own one a Daniel Defence V11 model but besides that let's get into this. First off the inherent flaw of the gas tube and why it's so important.

While in my military career we had the M4 model 14.5" barrel Colt and rare FN versions as well. In my time in the service I noticed something before deploying and that was at least every range day one M4 would break, not only this but in the sake of humor while in basic infantry training I witnessed one of our soldiers doing push-ups or as we like to call it being "smoked" why? Well he was shooting is M4 on full auto instead of semi auto, well to my disbelief he explained to me he was not indeed shooting full auto but semi auto and for some reason his rifle was acting up. Turns out his rifle was shooting 2 round burst on semi auto, quick look shows wear on the trigger assembly causing this oddity, which later happend to my new rifle in Afghanistan "by new I refer to an old upper but new trigger parts with only 3000 rounds through and I experienced this 2 round burst as well. It would seem the design of soft materials used in trigger groupings had caused this. But that isn't even the issue my issue is the other things thisnrifle did under combat and in training; and that has to do with the gas system. On more fingers than I have to count I have seen the M4 become a single shot rifle also happening to me. Well this sparks from the gas system and more technical the tight tolerance of this rifle and extremely small gas tube. On many of our rifles the gas tube become inop this was due to smalls holes or pits of corrosion within the tube something I know many of you if not all do not clean, I don't! Well now I do but how? Easiest way is shooting salvent down it and then airing it out with a compressor but you have to seriously make sure all liquid gets out before shooting or your barrel may blow up.

Many many AR15's undergo this gas tube erosion and many do not see it because how could you? Your rifle will shoot one day and the next day that pit hole pressurizes enough and suddenly you have a single shot rifle. If you have had that in combat happen trust me you won't trust that weapon anymore. So let's say your in SHTF an escalation that last three years and you haven't the resources to properly clean this gas tube your asking for trouble; it will randomly happen and when it does you will be in the worst situation as you will only know the issue once it happens while in live fire.

So some will say well that's why I got the piston version. Well good for you, but the other issue arises of the bolt carrier design and it loving to take in all matter of dust. It gets int here grinds and is hard to clean out that and the star chamber also being a pain.

5.56 is also very useless at times taking more than 4 shots just to drop a man, a man with no body armor so someone with it is even more of an issue. That and its range is not that great having to do with MOA and the fact really after 300 meters the AR15 is not fun to have especially in open desert situations.

Not only this but as an SFAT member with Afghan army relations. We came accross all M16's they owned as being defective and not up to the challenge of a war, you see the Afghan army is kinda what we would be as resistance groups not having proper maintanecce procedure and thus, ally here M16's had messes or issues. Mainly gas tube and and front hangurard breaks. On the other side of things I came accross various Klashnikov based weapons designs Romania, Poland, Russian, Hungarian and Yugoslavian and the great Chinese AK, all had there love in Afghanistan via ther AKM's and guess what when seeing these rifles or being shot at by them they worked, not only that but to the man who knows these rifles history; knows they acquired them at different points. Such as Chinese ones these were given to mujahideen by the CIA in the Cold War. I have held and shot Cold War Chinese AK's they have lasted all this time being slung on someone's back like you have your phone in your poker every day and they still will working, granted the barre rifleing was shot out making them inaccurate in various degrees but it shot. Only issue with the AKM's that I saw was broke wood stocks and the occasional bedazled AK with various ornaments and stickers of culture on a weapon : /

For those of you that want an actuall trust worthy rifle get an M1A I recommend the scout synthetic model, wood stocks are not trust worthy and can break from just one engagement when you go diving to the ground and use your rifle as a fall stop. I personally have a socom 16 and 20 round mags don't get 30 rounders not reliable compared to 20's. Other rifles to consider are the new version of the mini 14 in stainless steel, both the M1A and mini 14 have great gas systems and because the action is large and on top gases do blow out small dust eventually cleaning the rifle every time it's shot. As for AK's some arnt good such as center arms, I recommend Chinese type 56's or arensal products the AKM is a good design.

Ultimately it's up to the user to keep your rifle working keep it clean and above all buy spare parts for any rifle you own and the tools to fix it. And if you decide on the AR 15 make sure to buy an extra gas tube and know how to replace it.
While I do not consider myself a Stoner fan, your point against the gas tube is mirrored in the M1 Garand and M14. Both were fitted with a stainless steel gas cylinder and piston because of corrosion issues, as are the chrome plated piston and cylinder of the AK family.

In 1991 have saw Iraqi AKs so poorly maintained as to be rendered inoperable in semiautomatic.

As to the effectiveness of 5.56mm, we are all opinionated on our experiences. That's why the Japanese and Italians switched from 6.5mm to to 7.7mm and 7.35mm respectively. The Japanese on their experience on the steppes of Manchuria and the Italians in Abyssinia....the US in Vietnam were no different.
 
Also if we want to get scientific here for crazyccrmd what size was your unit as mathematically there may be a difference for instance while running ranges as a safety we had about 120 personnel in our company give or take depending on attachment MOS 's who showed up so I basically heard of or saw out of those 120 a percentage that did this however I don't know if your special forces in smaller teams that may not see a larger group of weapons in the field I really don't know or your lucky and you just haven't gotten to experience this. Don't get me wrong the rifle works I just don't agree with the desighns.
 
M-14 stocks only break If you don't hold properly when going to ground . You can't hold at pistol grip .
Must slide hand to butt of stock ' That was drilled into us at basic training . My M-14 or M-16 never failed me in 2 tours in Nam.
 
So what your saying is that I imagined gas tubes pitting and rendering M4's useless?

Had these M4s fired any blanks? That's far and away the #1 cause of gas tube gunk buildup. With full pressure at the gas port, it's very hard for anything with much surface area to stay in the tube - there's a lot of gas flow and therefore force trying to move it down the tube to where it can be cleaned out of the action. That gas flow is robust enough to erode steel (gas port erosion). Carbon gunk is no match for it.

I will say this: I spend a lot of time as an instructor on lines full of auto rifles. Many weekends I see thousands of rounds go down range from a wide variety of autos with AR15 variants being far and away the most common centerfires. Many of those rifles fail for all sorts of reasons and with varying levels of fixability. I have never once seen the failure be due to a plugged (as in single shot rifle) gas tube although I've seen plenty of other gas system problems like loose gas blocks. The comblock rifles have much more trouble per capita than any others.
 
The rifles in question were not plugged but found to have corroded from the inside allowing to much gas to escape and not moving the bolt properly. You brought up a good point Llama Bob these rifles in use do infact use blank firing adapters at least three times a year if I had to guess we could say maybe 2000 rounds of blanks fired per year depending on budget. Unlike some post saying they just know better I find yours to be the most appropriate and scientific to open a big question. That question I now realize is do to our military training using our exact same weapons but for blanks during garrison operations "does in in fact increase the process of erosion"? This may be why some say there's are fine because they never used a blank adapater where as the rifles we used did both blank firing and live firing.
 
Now I'm not sure I understand what failure you're describing. At first I thought you were talking about a gas tube plugged with crud which I have only seen associated with blanks, and in some cases with firing as few as 500 blanks, so I would expect rifles firing 2000/year to have lots of problems as a population.

But maybe you're describe something else - damage to the metal as opposed to just gunk?
 
I quit reading when the original post went to gas tube failure. Yes it makes sense and yes it can happen, but I have never read about it let alone seen it.

I do agree that the AR is a poor choice for the uninformed and folks who don't practice with it. I don't believe that any semi auto or (especially) full auto is a good choice either. I look at it how the navy looked at the Thompson in ww2. Too complicated, too expensive, and prone to eating too much ammo leaving a man with an expensive ineffective club. Give the shtf guys who don't and won't practice a choice between a 357 mag or 30-30 lever action rifle, a 243 or 308 bolt rifle, or a pump shotgun. If they insist on handguns give them a Ruger mkIII in 380. Yep...a nonexistant gun that should exist. Simple, reliable, and darn tough to physically force a ftf on.
 
So what your saying is that I imagined gas tubes pitting and rendering M4's useless?

He is saying the same thing all of us are saying, that the problem of gas tubes pitting is unheard of. You are the first person that I have ever seen come along and allege it. Perhaps you have some documentation to show us. The military itself has publications for improving the M4, but they don't mention it either.

Turning around and asking us questions back, instead of backing up your argument, isn't helping your cause. Pointing to the barrel length as a factor in gas tube erosion isn't helping your cause. Speculating that replacement parts used by the US military aren't held to a certain standard isn't helping your cause.

You aren't the first GI that is down on the AR system, but I've yet to see you offer anything that should change peoples opinion on a rifle that is still very good half a century after it was first adopted.
 
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