russlate
Member
Last I heard of, the gun with the best stopping record in the history of NYPD was the 30 carbine with hollow points.
Go figure.
Go figure.
Why isn't bigger better?
- Thread starter Alan Fud
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S_O_Laban
Member
Alan and the rest reading this thread. I sugest taking a look over a Tactical forums http://www.tacticalforums.com/ for some insight into the performace of the 357sig. Go to the terminal effects forum and do a search on 357sig
Mikul
Member
I know SOMEONE is going to disagree, but most people on this board agree that the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are comparable in effectiveness when comparing the best self-defense round in each caliber.
The .357 spits bullets of a wider diameter, heavier weight, and significantly higher velocity than the 9mm. Even if we're talking about the 125gr .357, it's the same weight as a 9mm, but travelling AT LEAST 300fps faster.
If we're relying on velocity to expand a bullet, the .357 has it in spades and may owe it's effectiveness to more reliable expansion.
The .357 spits bullets of a wider diameter, heavier weight, and significantly higher velocity than the 9mm. Even if we're talking about the 125gr .357, it's the same weight as a 9mm, but travelling AT LEAST 300fps faster.
If we're relying on velocity to expand a bullet, the .357 has it in spades and may owe it's effectiveness to more reliable expansion.
From what I read it seems common sense that the larger bullets, with proper penetration, will cause more damage.
If you hit the two vital areas that cause immediate incapacation, then there is no issue between the calibers.
Outside of that, in handgun velocities, it appears the amount of tissue destroyed and the penetration determine how effective(time) the 'stop' will be!
I read that hollow points probably expand 60-70% if the time. If they expand properly, then it appears the smaller calibers are close or equal to larger calibers. Of course, if the larger caliber expand, they are still larger. If they don't expand, then it appears the larger is better.
That doesn't mean I would feel "under-gunned" with 9mm type calibers, but I suspect "larger is better".
If you hit the two vital areas that cause immediate incapacation, then there is no issue between the calibers.
Outside of that, in handgun velocities, it appears the amount of tissue destroyed and the penetration determine how effective(time) the 'stop' will be!
I read that hollow points probably expand 60-70% if the time. If they expand properly, then it appears the smaller calibers are close or equal to larger calibers. Of course, if the larger caliber expand, they are still larger. If they don't expand, then it appears the larger is better.
That doesn't mean I would feel "under-gunned" with 9mm type calibers, but I suspect "larger is better".
V
VictorLouis
Guest
TechBrute, I thought I'd echo Alan's response. Masaad Ayoob's writings have mentioned similar results to those recorded by M&S'. Another gent mentioned Texas DPS' own observations over the years. LEO journals not normally read by even us 'gunnies' also have said as much.
Just because it's been said before doesn' mean I agree with it. So, ease up a bit.
MLC
Member.
A little levity is needed in this thread
Bigger, Better Best
Came across this fellows page today, serious firepower.
Bigger, Better Best
Came across this fellows page today, serious firepower.
charleym3
Member
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
It's also common knowledge that guns cause crime, young women cause divorce, and ice cream causes fat.
When you get into the most effective rounds available the difference in stopping effectiveness is more theoretical than real. The difference between 89% and 92% one shot stops isn't enough to make me change the gun or ammo that I carry. It's all in the placement.
I'm with Alan Fud on this one. Granted, when compared to rifle rounds, the relative effectiveness of handgun ammunition is fairly minor (as Charleym3 pointed out). But I have always been on the impression, as Alan, that the.357 is considered to be a better stoper than the .45 ACP.
Over the years, I've a heard a few guys argue that the .45 might be AS GOOD AS the .357, but not BETTER than the .357. Most arguments in favor of the .45 are based on the weapon itself, i.e. more rounds in the magazine and single-action triggers.
Alan should hardly be ridiculed for stating what IS the commonly-held opinion of most people familiar with firearms.
Heck, the .45 doesn't even meet the requirements for deer hunting in some places.
Over the years, I've a heard a few guys argue that the .45 might be AS GOOD AS the .357, but not BETTER than the .357. Most arguments in favor of the .45 are based on the weapon itself, i.e. more rounds in the magazine and single-action triggers.
Alan should hardly be ridiculed for stating what IS the commonly-held opinion of most people familiar with firearms.
Heck, the .45 doesn't even meet the requirements for deer hunting in some places.
charleym3
Member
In the circles that I run in most seem to believe that the .45 is a better stopper than the .357.
"commonly acknowledged" is right up ther with "experts agree" and "everyone knows" in meaingless arguments that my wife has made to try and convince me carring a gun is wrong. At my house sweeping generalizations will nearly always end up with speaker getting filleted, deboned, and hung out to dry with out mercy or remorse.
"commonly acknowledged" is right up ther with "experts agree" and "everyone knows" in meaingless arguments that my wife has made to try and convince me carring a gun is wrong. At my house sweeping generalizations will nearly always end up with speaker getting filleted, deboned, and hung out to dry with out mercy or remorse.
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Shaughn Leayme
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I wonder if it is the skill level of the users of 357 magnum and the 45 acp that is the deciding factor, for the most part.
The 45 ACP and it's generally preferred platform (1911), usually is found in the hands of the elite (with qualifications) and the mantra is practice, practice, practice. You also have the advanced practical users who are willing to spend the time in becoming proficient, instead of coffee with the buddies, they are at the range.
The 357 Magnum is often an option for those who want to carry them (notice I said want). The 357 magnum when firing the featured 125 grain load is not exactly tame. It bellows, spits out a fair sized fire ball and gives you a fair amount of recoil. You have to be serious in your practice to master this combination (4 inch or less barreled revolver) and firing it without muffs or plugs can be unpleasent, though in an actual encounter, you probably won't hear it. (audio exclusion)
As far as bullet design, weight and velocity, these are undeniably factors, but they are a combination and to try and quantify them individualy take's away from the whole.
It really comes down to placement, placement, placement.
So is one better than the other? Beats me
I am quite happy with a S&W 686 or my 1911 and know both will do the job, provided I do mine.
The 45 ACP and it's generally preferred platform (1911), usually is found in the hands of the elite (with qualifications) and the mantra is practice, practice, practice. You also have the advanced practical users who are willing to spend the time in becoming proficient, instead of coffee with the buddies, they are at the range.
The 357 Magnum is often an option for those who want to carry them (notice I said want). The 357 magnum when firing the featured 125 grain load is not exactly tame. It bellows, spits out a fair sized fire ball and gives you a fair amount of recoil. You have to be serious in your practice to master this combination (4 inch or less barreled revolver) and firing it without muffs or plugs can be unpleasent, though in an actual encounter, you probably won't hear it. (audio exclusion)
As far as bullet design, weight and velocity, these are undeniably factors, but they are a combination and to try and quantify them individualy take's away from the whole.
It really comes down to placement, placement, placement.
So is one better than the other? Beats me
I am quite happy with a S&W 686 or my 1911 and know both will do the job, provided I do mine.
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